How should Honda build the next NSX?

[gheba_nsx]

Honda is a company, they have also to make money on the cars they sell. This is a fact. They can tolerate to get even on special "halo" cars like the NSX: but they should at least recover costs...

What would you do if you were in their pants? No... do not think like a NSXPRIME fanatic , think realistically, as a Honda manager would do...

As I posted on the other threads on the same argument, I think that a car, similar in weight to the current one, V6, with 60ps more, same price would do very well. Everything above 120k$ would do very bad.

Honda should yes play in the big league (and 3000lbs/350ps IS big league) but not commit suicide against competing against cars that are a lot more advantaged (they only produce that kind of cars, they got prestige from that, they got name and recognition that "justify" putting 150k+$ on them...).

With 3000lbs/350ps/85k$ they could compete favorably against Porsche/Lotus and in a minor way even Ferrari, specially when the price is taken into account. And it would also remain competitive against Corvettes and Vipers (at least the new NSX would still have a edge in look, exoticness, reliability and build quality!).

Edited to correct some tipping error.

[MvM]

Gheba,
I would opt for the the 3000lbs version but I think that 350 FWHP is not enough to compete with that weight. The car should be able to compete with upcoming M3 and M5 easily, not even mentioning cars like the Modena 360
The 350 HP you mention is already easily achieved with the current engine with no too difficult to apply mods. A new NSX should have around 3.3-3.4 Kg/HP (7.2-7.5 Lbs/Kg).

We all know Honda can do this. Now it's up to them to show the rest of the world.

[gheba_nsx]

MvM, it should compete with Modena, true, but if it performs close to the Modena (350ps on the current NSX is quite similar to the Modena) for half the price, it WILL be a very good competitor IMHO . On the other hand, at 110k$, the price would be too high for most "rich" people to consider the Honda.

About the current NSX and 350ps, it is true, only when adding a SC. That is not what most people are considering when thinking to buy a 85k$ car. It should come reliable (the SC is not OEM reliable) and ready from teh factory. That is what magazine will test against the Modena...

...and for the SC nuts there is still plenty of (easy?) space to take the "new" NSX from 350 to 450ps by adding forced induction.

[j14nsx]

OK then, here's what I would do as a manager. I would not make a new NSX. There, that's probably upset you now!

Reason: S2000s sell well. Super performance from cars these days is no longer in the realm of the Porsche/Ferrari world. Audi, BMW and MB all have cars which perform well.

I believe the future is in smaller performance cars like the S2000. Why not uprate the S2000 to Porsche Boxster S level? Why not make the next NSX, Boxster sized and priced, with better performance, convertible etc.

The NSX was a good attempt at taking on the Porsche/Ferrari market, but the buyers of those couldn't be convinced.

If they start down the route of trying to get buyers based on outperforming Ferrari 360s and 911tt, they won't win. Sure the car may be better but who will buy it?

It is not in Honda ethos to make huge engined, loud, extreme sports cars.

In fact, why not even make a car that takes on the Lotus Elise?

[CRX B16B VTEC]

Smaller sports car must be on its way, reasons:

They don't have any CRX replacement
They don't have any S800 equivalent
They don't have any Beat replacement
Lotus Elise is selling well

so smaller version of S2000 or small midengined car like the Beat makes sense.

[Soichiro]

>>small midengined car like the Beat makes sense.

Not for the US market.

91 CRX DX (intimate relationship with Road Atlanta wall)
91 CRX Si
91 NSX

[MAJOR STONER]

Found this on my hard drive-

Yet more info about the NSX. Because the next Skyline GT-R will be expected to put out an astounding, 911-Turbo-killing 450-ps, Honda is fully upgrading its engine program. Following Nissan's lead, both manufacturers will ignore, for the first time, the domestic market power restriction of 280-ps. This unwritten law has been criticized for stifling the competitiveness of Japanese sports cars, and contributed, to a degree, their demise on the worldwide market outside of Japan.

A 3.5-litre V8 "base" engine will produce at least 400-ps, while a higher-spec model will have a 3.6-litre V8 producing at least 420-ps (and maybe even more, to battle the next GT-R). A 4-litre ultra-supercar is also under consideration (expect up to 500ps!)

Honda has learnt from its mistakes with the first NSX and the S2000 (JDM sales of the S2000 has continuously fallen to new lows as customers shy away from it. It is too peaky to drive in say, Tokyo, where traffic jams are the norm). Low-down torque will be more than ample this time around, and NSX will have class-leading performances in all areas. A steel body will keep costs down and will be less complicated to repair and insure. Honda has finally realized that just high-end power is not enough to satisfy buyers, it must also be easy to drive fast without having to rev to 9,000 rpm all the time.

Despite previous rumors to the contrary, Best Car Magazine now claims that the next version of the NSX will continue to have an all-aluminum body.

More interestingly, they also report that it will use Honda's IMA hybrid technology. Here, though, the focus wouldn't be on energy & fuel efficiency, but on boosting performance to an even higher level. Nonetheless, it would also allow for an improvement in fuel efficiency, an area where the NSX already stands well above similar exotic automobiles.

Auto Express describes the new NSX as a 400bhp version of the Insight, though the hybrid layout they describe is quite different. They describe the new NSX as keeping the mid-mounted ICE (3.5L V6), but adding an electric motor to drive the front wheels, making the car a 4WD. Auto Express also reports that testing of the new NSX is already underway at Honda's Japanese research and development center. It is reported that the new NSX is to be available in 2004."

[4AU4LIFE]

I like that pic.

[FuryNSX]

That is one of my more appealing interpretations of a next-gen NSX. It still retains many of the features/proportions of the current car, while adding contemporary touches like the Acura center line crease and pointed front.

-Randy

[NSXLuvr]

that pic is awesome. I would prefer 450hp/<3000lbs, and same price or less.

[effer]

None of these answers!

Sorry Gheba!

500+ hp SAE Net @ 10 000+ rpm for a real 89K$!

Still Al body...

And output of more than 120 hp / liter.

How? Easy as combining two S2K 4 inline to make a V8...

The NSX must regain its domination in regard of horsepower per liter and rpm's redline...

I agree with Fury NSX about the NSX picture attached by Major Stoner except about the center line crease and pointed front.

The next gen NSX will have to exhibit a power to weight ratio in the 3 kg per liter range or less...

[gheba_nsx]

NSXLuvr & effer,

I was trying to have a serious discussion about real possibilities , not dreams. Of course I would like an exchange program where they take my old NSX and they give me a 500ps monster with a couple years guarantee for some simbolic money, like 100$, since I drove around with their halo cars for so many year...

[Mr.Wolf]

No question: The next NSX should be +450ps.

When a trip takes thirty minutes, instead taking me ten, i'll get there in less than five!

[effer]

Originally posted by gheba_nsx
NSXLuvr & effer,

I was trying to have a serious discussion about real possibilities , not dreams.

Gheba, I was serious.

Why is every other manufacturers able to throw 400 to 500 hp engines easily and not Honda?

In fact Honda can, just look how they brought a 240 hp monster @ 2 litres... it is only because they didn't jump in the high power and high displacement engines, because they are concerned with fuel efficiency and also the Japanese gentlement agreement...

But by today standards, you can't play in the exotic field under 400-500 hp.

Still not convinced?

How can Mc Laren cars limited can?

Remember, Mc Laren asked FIRST Honda to create their Mc Laren F1 engine.



When the NSX made its debut in 1990 they were absolutely in the same league than Porsche and Ferrari in regard of absolute power and more importantly in regard of power to weight ratio.

Just make some simple math with power to weight ratio of an original Testarossa and 911 Turbo!!!

Honda made the mistake of not improving the power of its NSX as fast as Porsche and Ferrari.

My axiom:

"give 500 hp to the NSX and sales are going to skyjump"


The big challenge is not to create such a capable engine but to keep the car as balanced as the actual version.

There is no real exotic, by today's standards, that can't break the 300 km/h limit, except for Ferrari ( with the 360 Modena ) benefiting from its only name and reputation...thus using its almost infinite sympathy capital to make forgive them theirs littles lies ( how often did they about real power and real perf numbers? ).

Finally, If you think I dream, Soichiro would appreciate me because dreaming is a magnificent and powerful tool for improvement. He was also a dreamer...

Sans rancunes Gheba!

effer


Making a 4 liter whatsoever number of cylinders @ more than 120 hp / L is totally in the reach of Honda...

[nsxtasy]

When the NSX was first introduced, it was widely recognized as the best sports car in the world. It was as fast as anything out there, and it was a bargain because it was priced less than the Porsche and Ferrari competition.

If they want to do the same thing again, the straight-line acceleration would need to exceed that of the Z06, although not necessarily that of the 911TT or Viper. That means 0-60 around 4.0-4.2 and 1/4 mile times around 12.0-12.2. Price-wise, that means it would have to significantly undercut the 911TT ($117K).

And if they don't want to do that again, then it won't be competitive, and it won't sell.

The conclusion I come to is that the next NSX needs to be, at a minimum:

400hp/3000lbs/$85k

[gheba_nsx]

Originally posted by effer
Gheba, I was serious.

Why is every other manufacturers able to throw 400 to 500 hp engines easily and not Honda?

Honda is able of course. Actually everybody is able. Even Kia. The problem are:
1) how you do it: like the Viper does with 8 liter displacement? It is not that "tecnological", gas-friendly, efficient... or with a big Turbo? That it is not in Honda usual way-of-work.
2) how much does it cost in R&D and to produce a similar car?
2) can you then sell it? For several years? And make some profit???

Still not convinced?

How can Mc Laren cars limited can?

Hmmm... good point I did not think about this! They could also build a 1 Mio$ NSX! Same way as McLaren did!

When the NSX made its debut in 1990 they were absolutely in the same league than Porsche and Ferrari in regard of absolute power and more importantly in regard of power to weight ratio.

That does make sense. And even by being in line with Ferrari in performance and costing HALF the price, what has been the result? Did the NSX sell well?

Looking at the poll, I am kind of happy that many peole agree that a 350ps/sub 90k$ NSX would be the correct choice! The dream car with +450ps of course is tempting but does someone really think it would be wise financially?

[CRX B16B VTEC]

I was reading a car magazine while waiting for my Sushi... the next M series of BMW are all having V8s and V10s. (M3/M4/M6 etc)

Honda not only need to produce a NSX with V8 atleast, but need to come up with a better super saloon than the Accord Type R.

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by CRX B16B VTEC
I was reading a car magazine while waiting for my Sushi...

You shouldn't have to wait for sushi.

[vegasnsx]

Im sure the new NSX will have more than 350HP, the engineers are wanting to compete with Ferrari, Lambo,etc. im sure they know that 350hp isnt going to cut it. Gallardo has 500hp, the new 360 Modena replacement coming in 2006 will have 460hp, Honda will need to be close in HP or people wont buy, sad but true.

[NetViper]

As great as track numbers are, the american market has, and I think always will be a 1/4 mile mindset.

If the NSX cannot compete with the likes of the ferrari 360 and gallardo in the 1/4, it will not attract a lot of buyers. It would once again be people like us that bought the car for its overall balance and track abilities. This means 11.9-12.2 at 117+ MPH. Whatever amount of HP it takes to do that is fine with me.

[Juice]

I think the new NSX should be a weapon. Kind of like the Vanquish in the Bond film. Real guns, bullet proof glass, oil slick shooters... That way we don't have to race them, we just kill em!!

Really guys, isn't this horse dead enough? Nahhh!

[gheba_nsx]

I do not know... Modena, Gallardo, Aston... are we sure that the NSX has to challenge those cars? And would it even have a small possibility of competing with cars that start a lot ahead in the competition since they have something that cannot be built ("perceived status and heritage")?

I think the edge of the NSX could be the price. Offering something that status apart is quite close to the above mentioned cars for half the price (80-90k). And at the same time offering something that for a not such huge premium (plus 10-20k$ for the NSX) makes you want to pass on the Corvette, the M6 and the Viper.

By producing something in the over 100k$ I think (I know, I sound like a broken record) Honda will not be able to fill that not so crowded market of high performance cars priced 80-90k$.

[effer]

Originally posted by gheba_nsx


Honda is able of course. Actually everybody is able. Even Kia. The problem are:
1) how you do it: like the Viper does with 8 liter displacement? It is not that "tecnological", gas-friendly, efficient... or with a big Turbo? That it is not in Honda usual way-of-work.

Maybe you didn't read nor understood my previous post but I have answered that question.

Clues: think about S2K engine and also at the same time if possible think about 4 liter displacement THEN think about mixing those two informations...

Originally posted by gheba_nsx


2) how much does it cost in R&D and to produce a similar car?

Not that much because Honda won't start from a blank sheet and I am becoming kind amazed how people are always falsely believing that engine development costs are PROPORTIONAL to its displacement or power output. ( Obviously I am not talking about a thousand hp @ 20K rpm... )

Not more than S2K's engine development cost.

Originally posted by gheba_nsx


2) can you then sell it? For several years? And make some profit???

I would bet on that because customers want CHOICE and if Honda give them choice to buy a car as performant as a Ferrari or a Porsche and even a Lamborghini with their ( Honda of course! ) renowned reliability and assembly quality, I just CAN'T believe that Honda will not be able to gain over competition.

Who wouldn't consider seriously a 500 hp NSX @ 90K$ before a 996TT or 360 Modena or Murciélago???

I'd buy that NSX!!!

Originally posted by gheba_nsx


Hmmm... good point I did not think about this! They could also build a 1 Mio$ NSX! Same way as McLaren did!

Again you are missing the point because we are only talking about engine development, not the entire car package.

But maybe you are in the vanguard of those proclaiming that R&D costs of a 12 cylinder are twice those of a 6 cylinder!!!

And you also forgot that Mc Laren "didn't lose money" beside the fact that they only produced a mere hundred of F1.

Honda sold more than 100 X 10 NSX !!! Do you get it? Are NSX R&D costs higher than those of a Mc Laren F1?

This is also why I just don't believe the costs issues about not going on with second gen NSX.

Come on! It's too costly for Honda but absolutely reasonable for Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, BMW...

Originally posted by gheba_nsx


That does make sense. And even by being in line with Ferrari in performance and costing HALF the price, what has been the result? Did the NSX sell well?

YES during the three first years but the competition quickly adjusted their products, something that Honda didn't, AND this is where they made the big mistake...

Ferrari came with the F355 and then after the 360 Modena
Dodge introduced the Viper: the big steal in the bang for the buck category
Porsche beefed up theirs 911...
etc etc etc

True, in 1990 Honda came with the best sportscar in the world but as soon as 1993 the NSX should have gained more horse power to keep up with the competition.

To stay on top in the exotic car market its like in Formula One, staying at the same level of performance is the same as regressing.

In fact Honda stayed virtually at the same level all the time with the NSX!

Originally posted by gheba_nsx


Looking at the poll, I am kind of happy that many people agree that a 350ps/sub 90k$ NSX would be the correct choice!


The dream car with +450ps of course is tempting but does someone really think it would be wise financially?

Do you know about the large numbers law?

Do you know what is a representative and valid statistical result?



I still am totally sure that Honda can make a 500+ hp exotic for less than 90 K$.

Toujours sans rancunes monsieur Gheba!!!

effer

today was a superb day because I was planing on my wave board in 20 knots winds. I love my NSX and I also love windsurfing!

[Jin1976]

Remember what the NSX stands for; New Sportscar eXperimental. It might be a new concept (probably with electric hybrid engine does not mean it will have bigger power than before just better efficiency) and other additional gadgets that other cars haven't use yet.

For sure it will again be a pioneer for other car to follow.

Just think, if NSX is to be designed with a lot of power, surely one day there will be other cars that is better.

People like NSX because of its supremecy in ground control (good handling). On a sportscar level how many car have that (exception latest Porsche 911, I'm open-minded so don't flame me).

[LUV2REV]

Look at the new Porsche 911 GT3. 3.6 L flat six. 375 HP, 284 lb of torque. 8200 RPM redline. 0-60 mph in 4 secs, quarter mile in 12.3 secs @118 mph. 3050 lb curb weight. Now just imagine what Honda could do with a 3.6 L six for the NSX ???