Thanks. I have been considering this as I only need idle tuning. I’d pay them for the service. I’ll probably call them Monday. The ecu was purchased from them.
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Still having idle issues, help please
- Thread starter Jinks
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Jinks, I see a few things I don't like. You need to take it to a professional down there.
In the meantime, click on the "Help" dropdown in the top right of your screen, then select ""Tuning Explanation." A window will pop up on the right side of all the tabs with an explanation of what's going on. If you then click on the header of each individual window, the tuning explanation will describe what's going on in each box. It's easy to get overwhelmed if you're not used to tuning, and this explanation really helps you decipher what the black box is doing. :smile:
Sure, you can pay someone to remote troubleshoot and tune, but it is better to use someone local if they are trusted and well-known. If AEM skills were equal, would you rather interact with someone face-face on something this complicated and expensive, or someone over the internet? My $0.02.
In the meantime, click on the "Help" dropdown in the top right of your screen, then select ""Tuning Explanation." A window will pop up on the right side of all the tabs with an explanation of what's going on. If you then click on the header of each individual window, the tuning explanation will describe what's going on in each box. It's easy to get overwhelmed if you're not used to tuning, and this explanation really helps you decipher what the black box is doing. :smile:
Sure, you can pay someone to remote troubleshoot and tune, but it is better to use someone local if they are trusted and well-known. If AEM skills were equal, would you rather interact with someone face-face on something this complicated and expensive, or someone over the internet? My $0.02.
I’ve been looking around. Seems as though not many people south of Orlando know these cars. I’m having trouble finding a trustworthy mechanic. What do you see wrong so far? The car runs slightly rich so at least we are on the safe side for now I think. I haven’t driven it much.
One solution would to have the guy who did the work fly here to resolve the issues. You spent a lot of money and he should make it right at his expense. Just an option.
Sent you a PM.
Just as a follow-up to some of the original advice. Did you ever pull your EACV to clean it and check its operation and make sure that the ports are clean? Since you seem to have a bit of discomfort with interpreting the tuner interface for the AEM, I would recommend ticking off the EACV check first before start spending money on hiring somebody to sort out your ECU configuration issues.
On one of Jinks pictures, the Error TPS is "ON" and in red. That means the TPS is outside of the normal operating range and idle control is in the fail-safe mode.
There are two basic things you have to set for each engine:
1) Set the TPS min/max parameters in the AEM and
2) Sync the engine timing with the AEM. Obviously need to use a timing light. The NSX is a bit finicky.
I have a feeling neither were done properly. Sure, the engine will run and timing will be OK if you just add/delete numbers, but you really should know what is specifically going on with your engine.
Other problems just what I could see on the Idle tab:
1) Like Old Guy said, the idle is set up to got to 2625 RPM if ECT is 32F and below. Heck, it's even set to idle at ~1900 RPM if ECT is 86F and slightly below. That's absurdly high.
2) The ignition timing vs. idle RPM target error. These ignition correction values in the table are absurdly high. They typically aren't more than 10 degrees and will lead to wild idle timing variations.
3) The AEM is calling for the EACV to be at 98.8% duty cycle (basically full open). I don't have my AEM currently installed so I would look up my EACV duty cycle at 1000 RPM, but I'm guessing it should be much lower. That possibly supports all of our recommendations that the EACV be checked out or at least cleaned.
I can't see the RPM offset vs TPS and other important idle parameters, so I've asked for the calibration file.
If just the idle tab is this screwed up, I wouldn't have much confidence with the rest of this "Tune." Poor tuners typically add "safety margin" to a tune by excessively richening up the mixture. That's bad because it can wash down cylinders, contaminate your oil, and kill your cats early.
If it's going to take a few hour drive to a well-known tuner, that's something that I would be doing personally.
There are two basic things you have to set for each engine:
1) Set the TPS min/max parameters in the AEM and
2) Sync the engine timing with the AEM. Obviously need to use a timing light. The NSX is a bit finicky.
I have a feeling neither were done properly. Sure, the engine will run and timing will be OK if you just add/delete numbers, but you really should know what is specifically going on with your engine.
Other problems just what I could see on the Idle tab:
1) Like Old Guy said, the idle is set up to got to 2625 RPM if ECT is 32F and below. Heck, it's even set to idle at ~1900 RPM if ECT is 86F and slightly below. That's absurdly high.
2) The ignition timing vs. idle RPM target error. These ignition correction values in the table are absurdly high. They typically aren't more than 10 degrees and will lead to wild idle timing variations.
3) The AEM is calling for the EACV to be at 98.8% duty cycle (basically full open). I don't have my AEM currently installed so I would look up my EACV duty cycle at 1000 RPM, but I'm guessing it should be much lower. That possibly supports all of our recommendations that the EACV be checked out or at least cleaned.
I can't see the RPM offset vs TPS and other important idle parameters, so I've asked for the calibration file.
If just the idle tab is this screwed up, I wouldn't have much confidence with the rest of this "Tune." Poor tuners typically add "safety margin" to a tune by excessively richening up the mixture. That's bad because it can wash down cylinders, contaminate your oil, and kill your cats early.
If it's going to take a few hour drive to a well-known tuner, that's something that I would be doing personally.
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Sent the file to you. I am nervous now. Maybe I should flat bed the car up there.
No I have not had time this weekend to do so.
I think I am going to schedule a tuning appointment with Kings Performance or Titan Motorsports out of Orlando. They’ve worked on nsx’s and are AEM factory trained for ems 2 and Infinty ecu’s. They’re also listed in the top 20 tuners of America in this article. Titan being at a much higher rating.
http://www.complex.com/sports/2013/04/the-20-best-import-tuner-shops-in-america/evans-tuning
http://www.complex.com/sports/2013/04/the-20-best-import-tuner-shops-in-america/evans-tuning
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I'm surprised there aren't any decent tuners in the Miami area.
Anyways, I went through your cal file.
The first thing is to sync your TPS min and max with AEM. With the engine off, connect to your ECU and go to the "Wizards" tab and select "Throttle Range Wizard." Follow the instructions. That should fix your TPS and enable idle feedback.
Next, go to your Idle parameter tab. See the RPM Offset vs TPS graph? For throttle percentages 4% and higher, make those 250 RPM. Right click on the dots and select "Select Value" to change them. That should help with stalling when the TB shuts abruptly.
There's a few other things to do too using the method above of selecting the data points and inputting new values:
* In the Idle Target Base graph, a 1000 RPM idle is fine for ECTs above 176F, but I would make the others have a nice slope to a maximum of 1500 RPM near -4F. My OEM ECU NSX settled into a 1300 RPM idle a few seconds after starting it this morning with an ECT of 25F.
* For RPM Offset vs Start graph, I would change the maximum from 1000 RPM to 500 RPM, and slope that down to zero about 10 seconds after start.
* For the Ign vs Idle RPM graph, I recommend you make it like mine pictured earlier. Maximum feedback should be no more than +/- 10 degrees.
* Finally, the Options - Idle parameters on the left, I would change the last two idle dead bands to +50 and -50 RPM.
That should get you in the ballpark for idling. Make those changes and try it out.
I didn't examine everything in detail, but your rev limiter is 8150 RPM and your VTEC is set to switch over at 4300 RPM (instead of the factory ~5700 RPM). Just some tidbits of info.
Anyways, I went through your cal file.
The first thing is to sync your TPS min and max with AEM. With the engine off, connect to your ECU and go to the "Wizards" tab and select "Throttle Range Wizard." Follow the instructions. That should fix your TPS and enable idle feedback.
Next, go to your Idle parameter tab. See the RPM Offset vs TPS graph? For throttle percentages 4% and higher, make those 250 RPM. Right click on the dots and select "Select Value" to change them. That should help with stalling when the TB shuts abruptly.
There's a few other things to do too using the method above of selecting the data points and inputting new values:
* In the Idle Target Base graph, a 1000 RPM idle is fine for ECTs above 176F, but I would make the others have a nice slope to a maximum of 1500 RPM near -4F. My OEM ECU NSX settled into a 1300 RPM idle a few seconds after starting it this morning with an ECT of 25F.
* For RPM Offset vs Start graph, I would change the maximum from 1000 RPM to 500 RPM, and slope that down to zero about 10 seconds after start.
* For the Ign vs Idle RPM graph, I recommend you make it like mine pictured earlier. Maximum feedback should be no more than +/- 10 degrees.
* Finally, the Options - Idle parameters on the left, I would change the last two idle dead bands to +50 and -50 RPM.
That should get you in the ballpark for idling. Make those changes and try it out.
I didn't examine everything in detail, but your rev limiter is 8150 RPM and your VTEC is set to switch over at 4300 RPM (instead of the factory ~5700 RPM). Just some tidbits of info.
Gold right here. Always great to have you on the forum Mac.
[MENTION=12356]Mac Attack[/MENTION] that is awesome you took the time to help with this. It still seems a bit of a daunting task for me. But I have found the answer.... SOS offers remote set up for non tuning issues. I am going to schedule an appointment today....But with your help and old guys help I know that the idle is not set up right at all. Thanks guys.
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Happy to help. I know a lot of people have helped me on here in the past.
Do what you are most comfortable with, but I really think you can do what I outlined previously. You already know how to connect to the ECU and start AEM Tuner. The changes I outlined above are very minor tweaks that really shouldn't change much. The RPM Offset vs. TPS graph change should fix this alone.
The reason why I didn't send you back a modified file is to protect both of us in the highly unlikely scenario something were to go wrong. I'm not a certified AEM tuner and I don't do this professionally. I think I've seen enough of "experts" screwing stuff up that I trust but do my best to verify now.
If you do pay SOS to do this, you really should remove and clean your EACV beforehand though.
As a suggestion, if you can (I don't know what the AEM software interface allows you to do) keep a copy of the current configuration / tune file for your ECU. If you can do this, it will allow you to go back later and compare to the hopefully corrected configuration file from SOS. This may provide you with some learning opportunities which might prove to be helpful at some future time if new / different problems emerge - knowledge is power!
Yup. I have my file saved. Also, I just got off the phone with SOS and Shad my engine builder/tuner. Chris at SOS looked at my file. He said the idle and the rev limiter along with fuel cut etc are all programmed correctly as in the base tune they use on all of their Nsx builds. So I am back to square one. I wanted to keep this thread updated as best way possible for others. Shad is steering me back to the fast idle control valve. Being that it is from 1991 and I just pushed oil and coolant through every bit of the motor, he wants me to change that out first. The motor had zero idle issues when it was tuned according to him. So I’m going to order a valve today.
I'll repeat this again. From the picture you have previously, the Error TPS is "On" and highlighted in a bright red box. This means your idle FB parameters are set to a default value to protect your motor. The idle control valve has nothing to do with this.
YOU HAVE TO SET THE MIN/MAX TPS VALUES IN AEMTUNER before the idle FB tab you have is operable.
Once you do that, you are going to have a very high idle when the engine is cold. That's up to you. Perhaps Shad and SOS know more on the merits of revving a cold engine an extra 1000 RPM more than the Honda OEM engineers programmed in.
Also, if you enable the AEM tuner help function like I've suggested, you will read that AEM highlights the RPM Offset vs TPS graph as VERY IMPORTANT to prevent stalling. Yours is zero'd out, but again, maybe SOS and Shad know more about this system than AEM.
Now, the idle control valve probably needs to be cleaned and replaced like we've recommended all along. However, from what you've shown in the pictures, it won't enable a correct idle feedback in AEM.
I understand your frustration about spending a lot of money on this and just wanting to get the idle correct, but from what I've seen from DA and now SOS on such basic stuff, I still recommend you take it to one of the good tuners in Orlando or Miami area.
My $0.02.
I just ran through all of this with Shad via the phone. We did some of the wizards as you suggested. I hadn’t sent Shad my file so we talked about your recommendations and the TPS issue. Everything seems to be kosher as of now. SOS never saw my file when the car was running. So I kept getting the run “around”... As to why it lost its set up we think it might have been when I disconnected the D connector on the ecu to tap it for tha gauge art. This connector also houses the TPS sensor wire. The battery also get extremely low during the install. This might have caused the problem to occur. But it seems to be nice and smooth now with actual idle matching engine speed and no other parameters are in the red highlights. Thanks for the help. Trying to get anyone to touch these ecu’s remotely is a real pisser....
I got home early today and took the car out for about an hour. Idle seems to be doing much better after discussing what Mac attack found wrong with my engine tuner. Here’s a vid. It isn’t hunting around like before. I’ll try and get some in car video this weekend. Man this thing is so loud in gear under boost!
https://youtu.be/wF46Bvp0C08
https://youtu.be/wF46Bvp0C08
Great! That vid looks pretty good. Did you bump up the 250 RPM parameters to 400 RPM in that vid?
Great news guys!
Sorry to ask again, what is the step by step process to do this? I’m just so afraid to touch anything I do not fully understand yet. I have also just been playing around on Aem tuner looking at my file and getting a feel for what is what. Is it possible to program this car to start faster? Or should I just leave it? Still takes an awful long time to crank.
Cancel that [MENTION=32623]Mac[/MENTION]Attack I figured it out by sitting here playing around on Aem tuner.:wink:
This Aem tuner is really cool!!! What a awesome way to learn about how the car is running. Seemed scary at first but it actually is simplistic.
There are a lot of settings that can influence start up time. These include injector priming pulse duration, the amount of by-pass air during cranking and the amount of fuel being injected during cranking and these values are all temperature dependent. See if you can find somebody with a quick starting NSX running AEM and grab their start-up parameters. Compare them to yours and if there are significant differences, try making small changes to one item at a time to see what helps.
One trick, try opening the throttle a little bit while cranking. If that helps start up that could be an indication that you need more by-pass air (the EACV need to be open more) during cranking.
Slow ignition capture (capturing the cam sensor sync pulse) can affect start up. However, if you have stuck with the standard NSX cam and crank position system that shouldn't be a problem.
