F1 championship. Kimi...so close

**RP-Motorsports** · 10-12-2003, 07:00

Man I know that Shuey is one of the greatest drivers of all time, but very arrogant as well, which is why I did want Kimi to win and have Michael finish 8th. Well Michael did his part but Kimi was a spot short. Damnit!! Oh well F1 did serve up one of the most exciting years of the decade. And good timing with CART struggling and the Inferior Racing League being......well "inferior"

Now that he has the championship record, retire already!!! Just kidding! With him being the best, and even team Ferrari being the best, it makes it more exciting to root for the underdogs. Honda now needs to advance their driver skill level and the dyno #'s

**FGG** · 10-12-2003, 08:59

The dyno #'s are good for the BAR-Honda, the engine is just too "fat." LOL. They had a good end to the season though, 4th and 6th. Earned just enough points to vault them to 5th ahead of the rest of the backmarkers. Jenson is a good driver, not sure if Takumo will pan out in the long run. In any event, Honda has the experience to field a winner, hopefully they can at least achieve "success" like the Renault team did this year.

**rmani** · 10-12-2003, 11:49

While Kimi is probably my favorite driver, I was happy to see Michael and Ferrari win the championship and set all the records. Ruben also deserves a lot of credit, Ferrari owes so much of their success to him. I can't wait till next season.

**NSXTASY_MD** · 10-13-2003, 08:00

Michael is a great driver, there's no disputing that...but he is certainly NOT the most "talented" driver out there. I don't know how many of you guys were "hardcore" enough to watch F1 regularly back in the early 90's as oppose to recently. You'll know that Shumacher and his demonstrated driving skills were a joke compared to Aryton Senna and Alain Prost at the time...and they were both kicking his A$$ around the circuits like a ping pong ball, lol.
Kimi and Juan Montoya especially, have both demonstrated that they have what it takes to go against the big bogs...straight out of the hole...from rookie season. I'm mean, people out there are forgetting that Kimi ALMOST beat michael shumacher for the outright championship in an inferior package/car in his ROOKIE season vs. michael's being a seasoned veteran! That's all that needs to be said.*
If Montoya had a more developed BMW he would of clinched the championship long ago. Which you WILL see next year. I feel he's a much better driver than shumacher ever was...he just has far less support (from his team, communication with his team, team develpment) The only other driver in the series that TO ME demonstrates enough raw talent to challenge Montoya next for the champoinship (in his more improved BMW) will be Kimi*
Shumacher might be arrogant, but he's not stupid* He's know's if he didn't clinch it this time (which is why he was pathetically "blocking" the whole race, eventually damaging his brothers car becuase of it) He would never have a chance to win [championship] again. The BMW's and Mercedes have finally caught up with the pace, and have more talented, younger, and faster drivers...and he knows it*

--- Kevin

**03RSXTypeS** · 10-13-2003, 14:04

Originally posted by NSXTASY_MD
Michael is a great driver, there's no disputing that...but he is certainly NOT the most "talented" driver out there. I don't know how many of you guys were "hardcore" enough to watch F1 regularly back in the early 90's as oppose to recently. You'll know that Shumacher and his demonstrated driving skills were a joke compared to Aryton Senna and Alain Prost at the time...and they were both kicking his A$$ around the circuits like a ping pong ball, lol.

I have to totally disagree with that - watch some of the "Legends" series on Speed from '93, and you'll see Schumacher in only like his 3rd season of F1 consistently falling just short of Senna at the top of his game, and in pretty much equal equipment, and Prost in the all-singing all-dancing Williams Renault. The Williams was clearly a superior car, just as it was when Michael won his 1st championship in a V8 powered Benetton-Ford. I mean, the guy's only qualified outside the top 10 like twice. And Suzuka was due to the new one-lap qualifying and rain.

A lot of credit does have to go to Ferrari for the great cars the last few years, but also remember where Ferrari was back when Schumacher joined the team. Total disarry. Ferrari was nowhere and Schumacher helped put together and keep the team they have now - Jean Todt, Ross Brawn, etc. He was instrumental in getting Ferrari to swicth to the V-10 engine.

I've been watching F1 for about 13 years now. I've seen Piquet, Senna, Prost, Mansell, Hill, Hakkinen... Schumacher's got them all beat IMHO.

I think he's the best driver ever.

-Craig

PS - I don't really like the guy much either

**9000RPMan** · 10-13-2003, 14:38

I agree with 03RSXTypeS, I have been watching F1 since 1979, and I believe Schumacher is one of the best of all time. His two greatest strengths, IMHO, are his development ability and his ability to get the whole team working exclusively for him. Two talents that Senna also had. The best indicator of driving talent is multiple wins in Monaco, probably the circuit which brings out the best in a driver, and one where the car is generally the lesser part of the driver/car equation. MS has won there five times. He would have won it in 2000, but his rear suspension melted. He has never had a teammate who outqualified him over the whole year, and in the rain is simply magical. While I think he can be ruthless, with passing manuvers and team politics, this ruthlessness pays off in champoinships and wins. His very first race, 1991 at Spa in a Jordon he qualified seventh! I would also agree, though, that part of his ability to assemble all of these records is down to the fact that he didn't retire early (Jackie Stewart, Lauda, Prost, etc, etc, etc) and wasn't killed (Senna, Clark).

**svalleynsx** · 10-13-2003, 18:00

I strongly agree with the last two posts. Schumacher has been the greatest driver of his time and probably of all-time if you look at his record championships, wins, poles etc etc.

I've followed F1 since the late 60's and never have I seen a more focused, determined, and driven individual in the history of any sport.

And to those who say he's arrogant and egotistical, well I think you have to have those traits to compete in modern day Formula 1. Who isn't that way? On the other hand I find him very pleasant, and easy-going with the press. Very intellectual, perfect English, and a whole lot more charismatic than his nearest competitors combined.

**FGG** · 10-13-2003, 19:30

It's a close call, but I would have to give the nod to Senna over Schumacher. Senna's 65 pole positions and some of his early and late wins in less than top of the line equipment with, for example, Lotus with Renault power, winning back to back in Detroit in, I believe, '86 and '87, as well as his competitiveness in '93 in grossly underwhelming equipment, reveals his brillance as a driver (not to mention his involvement in the development and ownership of an NSX, which has tainted my opinion. LOL). Schumacher's records are incredible, but it just seems his exceptional equipment has given him such an advantage that you cannot attribute all of his success to his pure driving prowess. In fact, both Clark and Stewart were likely better drivers IMHO.

**Bulldozer27** · 10-13-2003, 21:03

Originally posted by NSXTASY_MD
I don't know how many of you guys were "hardcore" enough to watch F1 regularly back in the early 90's as oppose to recently. You'll know that Shumacher and his demonstrated driving skills were a joke compared to Aryton Senna and Alain Prost at the time...and they were both kicking his A$$ around the circuits like a ping pong ball, lol.

If you really are "hardcore", you would remember that Schumacher won his first GP at Spa in '92 (his first FULL season in F1, btw ) in an inferior Benetton-Ford against Berger/Senna in McLaren-Hondas and Mansell/Patrese in the all-conquering Williams-Renaults. Also, at the time of Senna's death in '94, Schumacher was leading the championship with 3 race wins in the inferior Benetton-Ford to 0 race wins for Senna in the '92 and '93 championship-winning Williams-Renault.

I'm mean, people out there are forgetting that Kimi ALMOST beat michael shumacher for the outright championship in an inferior package/car in his ROOKIE season vs. michael's being a seasoned veteran! That's all that needs to be said.*

You're the one who is obviously forgetting that Kimi's rookie season was in 2001 with Sauber, which would make this his third season in F1. Furthermore, the only reason Kimi almost won the championship this year was because of the NASCAR-style changes to the points system before '03. With the previous points system, Michael's '03 win total of 6 to Kimi's 1 (I'm fairly certain that 6 is much greater than 1

), would have decided the championship long before Suzuka.

If Montoya had a more developed BMW he would of clinched the championship long ago. Which you WILL see next year. I feel he's a much better driver than shumacher ever was...he just has far less support (from his team, communication with his team, team develpment)

Support goes both ways, as much from driver-to-team as team-to-driver. Truly great drivers (Senna, Prost, M. Schumacher) are able to integrate the whole team into a cohesive unit. Perhaps if Montoya hadn't called his own team "wankers" in France, he wouldn't be headed possibly to Mclaren in '05.....

If you don't like Schumacher, just say so, but don't back up faulty arguments with inaccurate rantings. I'm not the biggest fan of Schumacher either, but at the very least from an objective statistical standpoint, he has to be considered as one of the top 5 drivers of all time.

**RP-Motorsports** · 10-13-2003, 21:10

All I have to say is that even though M.S. wonAGAIN I think Ferrari has peaked FINALLY and we are going to have a few excellent years coming!

P.S. I heard a rumor that McClaren is trying to buy out Montoya's last year with BMW to get him for 04!!!!

**NSXTASY_MD** · 10-14-2003, 12:15

Originally posted by Bulldozer27
If you really are "hardcore", you would remember that Schumacher won his first GP at Spa in '92 (his first FULL season in F1, btw ) in an inferior Benetton-Ford against Berger/Senna in McLaren-Hondas and Mansell/Patrese in the all-conquering Williams-Renaults. Also, at the time of Senna's death in '94, Schumacher was leading the championship with 3 race wins in the inferior Benetton-Ford to 0 race wins for Senna in the '92 and '93 championship-winning Williams-Renault.

Support goes both ways, as much from driver-to-team as team-to-driver. Truly great drivers (Senna, Prost, M. Schumacher) are able to integrate the whole team into a cohesive unit. Perhaps if Montoya hadn't called his own team "wankers" in France, he wouldn't be headed possibly to Mclaren in '05.....

This is where our core arguments differ.....by the time Senna made the change to Williams-Renault, he was in NO way at an advantage ride/team wise to Schumacher (in fact just the opposite!).... To say Schumacher is a more talented driver than Senna is simply A JOKE!(not even close) And I wouldn't even dignify that one with a response...just talk to anyone "in the know" for your answers as there's just too much to type on that, LOL. In fact, Senna was always specifically praised and noted for both his unbelievable skills in making an unperfect, shaky car, look good and fast threw sheer driving skill...as he had less than perfect cars in MOST of his career* (except the Mclaren Hondas)...and also his simply unbeatable abilities in the wet* My discussion here is about the "new talent" like Montoya vs. MS...

...Also, as with Senna's move to Williams...anytime you change teams at THAT level in F1 its a huge risk (usually for the worst)* Communication with your technical director and rest of team is QUINTESSTIENTIAL for a championship....no matter how talented you are as a driver* Look back to the USGP to see how Juan's pit-crew team performed when he needed them most...look at how Juan did his job flawlessly when he passed Barrichello like a B*tch in Suzuka (*a drivers track*). And pulled away from the field like lightening only for his car to fail him.....I'm sorry, BMW engineers are among the worlds best (if not THE best), but if I were Juan I'd have every right to be pissed at that "team" of wankers, lol...on THOSE days at the very least.

You say it works both ways? Team-to-driver...driver-to-team...well lets look here: You have a hispanic driver trying to click with a bunch of germans (and english) he's rarely worked with (if not EVER worked with, regarding most of his team) Compared to a european himself (MS) which has a technical director (Ross Brawn, the most important member of a team for a driver) who he has a great history with both ON and OFF the track* You could practically call him a "brother-in-law," (MS's own quote) LOL. not to mention numorous other key players on that team who just "move" with schumacher from team to team...as his fixed support system. And these people (Ross Brawn, Jean todt, etc..) aren't just people, THEY are arguably the best in the business*...you need to look "beneath the surface" before disregarding my comments as "faulty" ...and stop being a "stats" freak*

Again, look to the support system in Formula 1 to see the reasoning behind MS's 6 champoinships...anyone who thinks MS's "talent" as a driver was simply resposible for that doesn't understand racing at that level...simply put. I can name you FIVE drivers (some current, some deceased) who would have 6 champoinships (or more) with backing like that*

PS: Having said ALL that....there's no denying that he's "a great driver" to have pulled it off, thats a given.

....OH, and by the way, Shumacher happens to be my *second* favorite driver thats "currently" racing.

**Bulldozer27** · 10-14-2003, 14:10

Originally posted by NSXTASY_MD
This is where our core arguments differ.....by the time Senna made the change to Williams-Renault, he was in NO way at an advantage ride/team wise to Schumacher (in fact just the opposite!).... To say Schumacher is a more talented driver than Senna is simply A JOKE!(not even close) And I wouldn't even dignify that one with a response...just talk to anyone "in the know" for your answers as there's just too much to type on that, LOL. In fact, Senna was always specifically praised and noted for both his unbelievable skills in making an unperfect, shaky car, look good and fast threw sheer driving skill...as he had less than perfect cars in MOST of his career* (except the Mclaren Hondas)...and also his simply unbeatable abilities in the wet* My discussion here is about the "new talent" like Montoya vs. MS...

I never said that Schumacher was better than Senna, but he is close to , if not the equal of the latter. As for being "in the know", are you one of those people? Have you ever road-raced competitively (I have, from '90-'94)? Have you ever seen an F1 race live? I have, USGP 2000, and on that occasion Schumacher braked into turn one 20 METERS later than anyone, including Mika Hakkinen, which is all the more amazing considering the short braking distances of carbon brakes.

And how can you say that Senna had less than perfect cars most of his career? 6 out of his 10 full seasons were at Mclaren, and that yielded three championships. And the year he died, Damon Hill, of all people, nearly won the championship, so you can't say that his Williams Renault was inferior to Schumacher's significantly underpowered Benetton-Ford.

As for Senna's wet abilities, the fact is, Schumacher has similar abilities as he has won more rain races than anyone else since Senna. Even his first race win (again, Spa '92) was in the rain against Senna, etc. But let's return to your flawed discussion about "new talent", particularly Montoya and his rain abilities. At the '03 USGP, while Michael serenely cruised to victory IN THE RAIN, Montoya punted Barichello, resulting in a stop-and-go penalty, and then (remember this race was crunch time for his championship aspirations) he spun off all on his own in the rain, at which point he was a lap down to your favorite driver. Before you even say that the Bridgestones ar better in the wet than Michelins, I'll point out that Kimi made no such errors (btw, in case you didn't read it the first time, this is his THIRD season, not his rookie season in F1)........

You say it works both ways? Team-to-driver...driver-to-team...well lets look here: You have a hispanic driver trying to click with a bunch of germans (and english) he's rarely worked with (if not EVER worked with, regarding most of his team) Compared to a european himself (MS) which has a technical director (Ross Brawn, the most important member of a team for a driver) who he has a great history with both ON and OFF the track* You could practically call him a "brother-in-law," (MS's own quote) LOL. not to mention numorous other key players on that team who just "move" with schumacher from team to team...as his fixed support system.

Are you kiddin me? You're playing the race card? Whose your attorney, Johnny Cochran? Are you saying that everyone on Montoya's previous teams in Formula Opel, F3000, and CART all spoke to him in Spanish, particularly the Japanese Honda engineers at Target-Ganassi in '99? Senna (another South American driver) won the '88 title in his first year at Mclaren-Honda, a British/Japanese team. You think they all communicated with Senna in his native Portugese language? If you really are "in the know", you would know that the universal language in a multinational sport like autoracing is ENGLISH, so that argument is totally baseless.

So let's address the idea that Montoya still needs time to get to know his team, and vice-versa. He's been at Williams-BMW for three years now with the same engineers and mechanics. By comparison, Schumacher's third season at Benetton (also his third full season in F1) yielded a championship. How long does he need? Five years? Ten years? As for him calling the team wankers, truly great drivers don't EVER verbally abuse their own team in the media. Senna never did it, and Scumacher doesn't either.

And these people (Ross Brawn, Jean todt, etc..) aren't just people, THEY are arguably the best in the business

So you're saying that Frank Williams and Patrick Head aren't good enough? Last time I checked the record books they have more Drivers and Constructors Titles than Brawn, Todt, Byrne.....

Again, look to the support system in Formula 1 to see the reasoning behind MS's 6 champoinships...anyone who thinks MS's "talent" as a driver was simply resposible for that doesn't understand racing at that level

Apparently you're the one who doesn't understand racing at this level. Of course Scumacher didn't do it all on his own, just like Senna or Prost didn't. But if Montoya was with Brawn, Todt, etc. from '96 until now. Logic suggests that he would not have won as many (if any) championships as Schumacher. Hell, he probably would have started whining when times were bad, alienated the team, and then signed for another team just like he is doing at Williams now.

I can name you FIVE drivers (some current, some deceased) who would have 6 champoinships (or more) with backing like that*

I'd REALLY like to hear this one.....

you need to look "beneath the surface" before disregarding my comments as "faulty" ...and stop being a "stats" freak

Look beneath the surface at what? More hot air? Anyone else wanna chime in? Anyone? Bueller?

Just keep setting 'em up and I'll keep knockin 'em down....

**Shuey2k** · 10-14-2003, 17:15

I can't believe where this thread is heading. The debate over who is the best of all time will forever be just that, a debate. Modern day F1 can't be compaired with the technology in 94. Was Senna great? Of course he was but could his temperment allowed him to be as successful in an era of non slicks, almost exclusively areo grip and poor tracks with little or no passing area?

Anyways, it isn't worth the debate I just wish May 1, 1994 had never happened because we would have all enjoyed those two going head to head.

By the way, Michael did have the best car this year but had by far the worst tires and tires will always be the deciding factor. More important than HP and Areo combined.

One last thought, no pretense intended but I have been lucky enough to meet both Michael and JPM and Michael took his time to sign a few things and JPM was a complete ass.

**Osiris_x11** · 10-14-2003, 18:26

Originally posted by Shuey2k
One last thought,
... JPM was a complete ass.

Sad to say, I've heard the exact same thing- from a few people; some even from the Ganassi-camp/WPenn area friends...

**RP-Motorsports** · 10-14-2003, 20:12

I have met JPM and saw the opposite. I even saw him invite an excited young fan (10ish) past the roped off area to him for a chat about his car, and a signature. He was probably an ass to you cause you had a horse on your shirt!

But hey they can all be stressed and asses at times.

**Osiris_x11** · 10-14-2003, 20:16

Originally posted by Bell turbo B18C1
... He was probably an ass to you cause you had a horse on your shirt! .

I busted out the pit-row jacket from '99 (ferrari-shell-marlboro-hilfiger one) just as I read your post...

**NSXTASY_MD** · 10-15-2003, 10:12

Originally posted by Bulldozer27
I never said that Schumacher was better than Senna, but he is close to , if not the equal of the latter. As for being "in the know", are you one of those people? Have you ever road-raced competitively (I have, from '90-'94)? Have you ever seen an F1 race live? I have, USGP 2000, and on that occasion Schumacher braked into turn one 20 METERS later than anyone, including Mika Hakkinen, which is all the more amazing considering the short braking distances of carbon brakes.

Just keep setting 'em up and I'll keep knockin 'em down....

Yada, yada, yada...I'm sure you COULD "keep knockin' them down"....with skewed facts, and TOO much time on your hands, LOL. I could keep coming back with more that supports my own...

...BUT, we're all auto and racing enthusiasts here...let's leave it at this, we AGREE that we disagree on this particular topic.

(When it comes to subject topics like "who's the most talented driver ever" -type stuff it's always this way) I can't even begin going back and forth...I can tell you're one of those "have to have the last word types"

...so I'll give it to ya.

By the way, I'm an SCCA member whom frenquently does track events also.

With a larger budget (in due time) hopes to bump up in catagory of racing.

**Ponyboy** · 10-15-2003, 12:25

Cool account of an USGP F1 steward:

click on this

10th post down.

**Ponyboy** · 10-16-2003, 11:31

Don't believe me? Read and weep sucka. The following are Six Tenants of "Why Kimi IS the Greatest F1 Driver Ever."
- The only albino in Formula One history.
- Currently entertaining offers to star as robot villian in science fiction classic, working title: "RaikkoTRON."
- Sucker punches Schuey. Thereby setting precedent for Joan Paula Montoya.
- The only viable post-race-interviewee successor to Mika.
Interviewer: Can you describe your race and your feelings at the moment?
Kimi: There were cars on the :mumble:. Yah. :cue awkward silence:
Interviewer: So Michael...
- Even Finnish people can't understand him.
- Kimi = personality = triscut. And who doesn't love triscuts?

**03RSXTypeS** · 10-16-2003, 13:35

Actually, I consider Kimi a big step up to Mika Hakkinen. Hakkinen was the only driver I've ever seen who looked like he was pissed off that he won the race. I remember a picture from the USGP where Hakkinen was sitting in a lawn chair with an inflatable duck around his neck. He still looked sour. It amazes me that the guy can look so glum even when he's clowning around!

-Craig

**JDRAGO1** · 10-16-2003, 14:57

Let me start by saying, I am the worlds biggest Montoya fan. But to say that Michael is inferior to Senna,Prost or anyone for that matter is ridiculous! I don't even like the guy. He is as good or better than anyone who has ever driven a car! If you remember, he was thumping Senna in 1993 right up until Senna died in his crash. Senna was also in the best equipment available! I think Senna was great as well, but Michael need not take a back seat to anyone!
With regard to Montoya, I love the guy but he plain and simply blew it this year at Indy! Balls alone do not make a great driver! Until Montoya grows up, he will never be champion, regardless of how good the BMW becomes!

**03RSXTypeS** · 10-17-2003, 05:47

He also blew it in Australia, I think.. Spinning out of the lead. But the Williams BMW also quit on him a couple of times too when he looked overwhelmingly fast.

-Craig

**NSXDreamer2** · 10-18-2003, 00:29

I'm an enthusiastic all my life, I only went to track one time and autoX 4 times... I'm in no way as expert as some of you. But I think long time ago, I learnt one rule on the track/ race circuit is to "win the race at the slowest speed possible."

Somewhere along the line, MS is the believer of the rule and a master of mixing that with team tactics and other "unsportman" moves...

1 thing I like the most happened when I was very young and I was lucky enough to watch MJ racing Hakinen at Macau at the Formular 3 race. MJ got a lead in the second heat, and even he won it, he won't get the trophy... Hakinen only needs to be second to win the trophy... as it came to end of the race, MJ slowed down yet holding Mika for couple laps... at the straight before the chekered flag he let Mika gaining momentum and then fully brake his car at the straight... MJ lost the rear wing and coast to the checker flag, Mika spun out and damaged his.
At that point, we all know that a star had been born but probably it won't be the way that Senna does to everyone's heart.

Senna (and Montoya) was great sportman since they gave out 101% trying to achieve their best to impress all race fans.. They are constantly walking the thin line between Glory and Failure. That's what win most people's heart.

MJ got game, not to say he's not one of the greatest, but part of the lost interest in F1 in recent years can be related to him and the (team). I will not blame him, because this is his career and he "must" do whatever he thinks to the best to himself, his team and the sponsors.

If you want to stretch that, you may compare Michael Chang/ Andre Agassi with Pete Sampras(in tennis). Yes, 46 Aces in a match is very amazing, but the game, nonetheless, is boring.

If MJ ever retire, I would wonder what is he going to do with his skills... Whatever field he's going to be in, it will be very interesting.