racing harness installation

[elixer]

anyone installed 4 pt or 5 pt racing harness without using roll bar or harness bar??
my car is not a track car but since i got a MOMO without an airbag, just wanted to upgrade seatbelt
maybe i should post this at the track forum

Jon

[DONYMO]

I am not sure if a 4 or 5 point harness is legal on the street.
Plus, it makes for a difficult time buckling up.

[KGP]

Originally posted by DONYMO
I am not sure if a 4 or 5 point harness is legal on the street.

I think that depends on whether it is a DOT approved harness. I'm pretty sure that Schroth makes some DOT approved 4 points, but don't know of any 5 points that are DOT approved.

[apapada]

Originally posted by elixer
anyone installed 4 pt or 5 pt racing harness without using roll bar or harness bar??
my car is not a track car but since i got a MOMO without an airbag, just wanted to upgrade seatbelt
maybe i should post this at the track forum

Jon

Using a harness on the street is a bad idea IMHO. With a 4/5 pt harness, you are glued to the seat and you WANT to be able to duck in case ______ (fill in with: deer, debris, tree branch...) comes flying in your windshield window.

[sjs]

Originally posted by apapada
Using a harness on the street is a bad idea IMHO. With a 4/5 pt harness, you are glued to the seat and you WANT to be able to duck in case ______ (fill in with: deer, debris, tree branch...) comes flying in your windshield window.

You might want to read this recent thread...

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showt...hlight=harness

[apapada]

thank you for the good reading post. I do not argue about the ability to sustain less injuries in case of a roll over with a harness. It is true that in the case of a roll over you are better off with a 4-5-6 point harness.

I still maintain however the impossibility of anyone to duck and avoid for instance deer antlers going through his/her windshield. I personnaly know of the case of a coworker who would have been killed hadn't she ducked and avoided the antlers that pierced her seat when the car she was driving hit a deer. Same could happen if one would hit from the back a truck carrying 2x4 lumber for instance (with its gate lowered)... Nowhere to go if you are wearing a harness.

[sjs]

Originally posted by apapada
...I still maintain however the impossibility of anyone to duck and avoid for instance deer antlers going through his/her windshield...

All true for sure, but I think that the same 99% rule applies. The odds of that type of accident is pretty slim most times of the year and in most areas, and the odds of managing to avoid mortal injury by ducking are even longer. (glad to hear someone beat those odds!!) Likewise the other scenarios. Possible of course, but the better belts are, so it is claimed, far more likely to benefit you in more typical and common accidents than to hurt you in these rare cases

[kenjiMR]

Originally posted by apapada
thank you for the good reading post. I do not argue about the ability to sustain less injuries in case of a roll over with a harness. It is true that in the case of a roll over you are better off with a 4-5-6 point harness.

I still maintain however the impossibility of anyone to duck and avoid for instance deer antlers going through his/her windshield. I personnaly know of the case of a coworker who would have been killed hadn't she ducked and avoided the antlers that pierced her seat when the car she was driving hit a deer. Same could happen if one would hit from the back a truck carrying 2x4 lumber for instance (with its gate lowered)... Nowhere to go if you are wearing a harness.

In an NSX if you have time to think to dodge antlers, I would think you could dodge the deer completely or brake enough to survive either way.

[PorknBeanz]

Schroth makes the Auto-Control belt. It's a four point harness that locks if the G-forces are high enough. They're expensive though.

[NSX-Racer]

I have 4 point harnesses without harness bar. You have to remove the rear belts that are used in 4seaters to bridge the distance between driver seat and rear wall. In your case you can't use the automatic belts because the automatic is in the part you have to remove when you mount it in a NSX (not enough space).

I therefore use fixed belts - 2 directly bolted at the wall between passenger and engine compartment - 2 at the points where the stock belt was fixed (all with additional reinforcement parts).

It's not suggested for street driving, I have a track only car.

[elixer]

Thanks everyone for inputs and opinions.
WOW!! there's so much to it then just belts and bars...
after reading the recent discussion on this topic, i've decided not to put in harness bar or racing harness, but thinking about putting the stock wheel with airbag back on.
But geezz the stock wheels are so worn-out, ugly and thin

Jon

[nkb]

Originally posted by apapada
... I do not argue about the ability to sustain less injuries in case of a roll over with a harness. It is true that in the case of a roll over you are better off with a 4-5-6 point harness.

I disagree. That is actually the worst type of accident in which to have a 4-5-6 point harness without a rollbar.
As Lud mentions in the other post, the problem in rollovers when wearing a harness is that your head has nowhere to go. If the roof collapses on your car, your head takes the brunt of the force. With a regular 3-point seat belt, your head and upper torso can be pushed down.

In talking with instructors at Driver's Ed events about installing harnesses, every one of them advised against them, unless a roll cage was also installed, for that very reason.

[NSX-Racer]

Mmmh - I have no rollcage with my 4 point harness but maybe my seat (top end nearly touches the roof) will help a bit when the car would make a roll (which I don't want to test please)

[kenjiMR]

Originally posted by nkb
I disagree. That is actually the worst type of accident in which to have a 4-5-6 point harness without a rollbar.
As Lud mentions in the other post, the problem in rollovers when wearing a harness is that your head has nowhere to go. If the roof collapses on your car, your head takes the brunt of the force. With a regular 3-point seat belt, your head and upper torso can be pushed down.

In talking with instructors at Driver's Ed events about installing harnesses, every one of them advised against them, unless a roll cage was also installed, for that very reason.

Did you read Andrie's SAE post?
In any case, there doesn't seem to be much numeric data that provides proof one way or the other.

[nkb]

Originally posted by kenjiMR
Did you read Andrie's SAE post?
In any case, there doesn't seem to be much numeric data that provides proof one way or the other.

Yes, I did. And, as Lud pointed out, not much of what is said in the document is verifiable, especially the anecdotal evidence.

I am mostly going by what I've been told by experienced track guys (instructors at DE events, of which a large part race competitively). Again, not something that can be numerically verified, but I'm taking their word on it, since I'm sure they've seen their fair share of rollovers.

For the record, I'm not buying the "ducking" logic for not installing harnesses. The freak occurence of being able to duck out of the way of an object is analogous to arguing that not wearing a seatbelt can save your life (you know, some guy knew a guy that was thrown from the car right before it crashed down into a canyon and exploded, or this guy's seatbelt wouldn't open, and he ended up burning up in his car). In reality, getting thrown from the car is usually the reason you get injured or die.

But your head being in a vulnerable and unyielding position (with a harness) when the roof collapses makes logical sense.

[apapada]

Originally posted by nkb
I disagree. That is actually the worst type of accident in which to have a 4-5-6 point harness without a rollbar.
...In talking with instructors at Driver's Ed events about installing harnesses, every one of them advised against them, unless a roll cage was also installed, for that very reason.

I should have been clearer. I never meant having a harness without a rollcage. Having a roll cage was implied. If you have such harnesses without a rollcage, then you are looking for trouble.

[apapada]

Originally posted by sjs
All true for sure, but I think that the same 99% rule applies. The odds of that type of accident is pretty slim most times of the year and in most areas, and the odds of managing to avoid mortal injury by ducking are even longer. (glad to hear someone beat those odds!!)

There hasn't been a year that I didn't have to dodge a deer. Never hit one (Praise the Lord), but the odds in "my part of the woods" are way higher than slim. Hitting a deer, is more about a question of "when" than a question of "if" here in upstate SC.

[sjs]

Originally posted by apapada
Hitting a deer, is more about a question of "when" than a question of "if" here in upstate SC.

Although it may seem that way, I doubt the statistics would back it up. But that's beside the point since I was quite careful to say "...most times of the year and in most areas..." which clearly allows for people like you.