Does Mark Johnson steal from a friend who died last year....?

D'Ecosse · 24 April 2004

Steve - nothing to do with my opinion of my MJ one way or the other - I seem to recall that you have stated previously that you have never (& obviously never will) bought anything from Dali - yet you seem to be one of the most vehement crusaders based on no personal experience of a transaction with him.
I simply find it odd that you should be so extreme in your view given lack of any personal negative dealings.

Ether · 24 April 2004

pko5 said:
I wonder if I orderded $5k worth of parts....would he respond? Maybe someone can "pretend" to order something and see if Mark responds...that way we know if he's dead or alive.

If you really wanted to, I suppose you could just order something C.O.D. and refuse it if it comes.

whiteNSXs · 24 April 2004

D'Ecosse said:
Steve - nothing to do with my opinion of my MJ one way or the other - I seem to recall that you have stated previously that you have never (& obviously never will) bought anything from Dali - yet you seem to be one of the most vehement crusaders based on no personal experience of a transaction with him.
I simply find it odd that you should be so extreme in your view given lack of any personal negative dealings.

Ken,
I have to disagree with you. You don't need to be victim of a crime to be a crime fighter or an advocate. I simply asked everyone to put in an official report rating for Mark just like eBay does. In the society, if you have not noticed, there are people who will stand up for people who are victimized. I find it VERY odd that you will feel ODD about this concept. I personally don't have bad deals from Dali, but it has no bearing on how I hate theft, fraud, crooks, and crimes in general. I simply in my posts show my opinion on this subject. In fact, Mark Johnson and I had very good rapport since 1996 until 2001 when all these complaints against him came out. I have been on the original NSXlist since 1996 and had bought stuff from Mark prior to 2001. My prior good dealing experience does not justify his current fraudulent practice, nor endorsing it in anyway. As I said, one does not need to be a victim to hate crime. I supposed you have had good experiences with MJ or else you would not have confronted me.
Steve

Sig · 24 April 2004

nsxtasy said:
Just to sum up where this issue stands:

2. I have made some concrete suggestions for ways to resolve this issue that would involved finding out the whole story and, if it turns out to be appropriate, making financial restitution. Others have criticized these suggestions, but no one has presented any alternative suggestions that would straighten this out and, if needed, "make it right".

There have indeed been alternative suggestions made. However... you criticized most of them.... just as some criticized some of your suggestions. Can't have it both ways my friend.

There is not any 'idea superiority' here. The validity of the options put forward is a subjective matter.

Going from memory this is how I see the scorecard:

1) Both Sides should be heard..... I think everyone agrees with this one.

2) NSXCA membership action.... several supporters, several detractors.

3) BBB..... apparently this route has been taken already. Few supporters and many detractors.

4) Trader Rating... certainly a good first step and should be used by both sides of the fence. Probably can won't do anything to help those that have already been affected though.

5) 1099 losses to the IRS... interesting idea. Will prorbably take too much effort from too many parties to work. Especially given the date.

D'Ecosse · 24 April 2004

whiteNSXs said:
Ken,
You don't need to be victim of a crime to be a crime fighter or an advocate. I simply asked everyone to put in an official report rating for Mark just like eBay does.

To the contrary Steve, you don't "simply ask ..." - every time this subject comes up, you are there with multiple posts leading the lynching. There's nothing wrong with being a crime fighter if indeed a crime has been made (i.e. tried, proven, convicted) - I personally subscribe to "innocent until proven guilty" party.

whiteNSXs said:
I supposed you have had good experiences with MJ or else you would not have confronted me.
Steve

Now that's the kind of extremism I'm talking about - I openly stated that I had no opinion one way or the other, but you have interpreted my statement to justify yours. Please don't patronize me as to deciding what my personal transactions have to bear on this subject.

As it is, I am disturbed by these reported occurences, especially as apparently might be the case in the particular opening post this thread is supposed to be about - however I have not witnessed any proven facts of fraud or worse, outright theft and am not prepared to predict right or wrong here until process is done. That does not mean I don't believe that people are inaccurately reporting what's going on - it could be incompetent business practices, missing e-mail files, or yes, maybe there could be some deliberate criminal acts here - I (& no-one else here) should be prepared to make that judgement as to which without the proper knowledge of what is really going on.
While we're at it, let's just fry Scott Peterson(My personal feelings on that subject? Irrelevant!, so please don't presume anything) - he's guilty too, right? You "heard" that too, I bet - why waste the money on a trial?
Why? Because this is America & people (e.g. local hero Pat Tillman) actually fight to protect the freedoms & idealogies that living here entitle one too.

comquat1 · 24 April 2004

Ken, assuming we don't hear Dali's side of this argument (which is a good guess since that is his track record), what would you suggest we do? I'm with Whitensx's on this, I have not been victimized but I don't like what Dali is doing to the members of this community.

I also wouldn't say we are rushing to judgement here based on the past 2-3 years of complaints that have been levied. Where do we all draw the line?

Personally I think the Trader Rating is a start, but I doubt it will do anything in the long run. Again I find it odd with the track record here that now that a dead person's estate has been taken advantage of that it still isn't enough to elicite anger and outrage over this vendor to the point of really taking it to him. How much more investigating should we do of Dali? Doesn't this company's history speak for itself? I'd call this incident the straw that broke the camels back. Maybe I'll be viewed as being part of the lynch mob here, but so be it, MJ is probably watching this thread and laughing at all of us for our lack of gumption to stand up to him (no doubt sitting on a pile of money).

D'Ecosse · 24 April 2004

Like the other Ken, I'm just tired of seeing countless threads all with no results, just noise-making. There are plenty of well-reprted processes here that victims should take advantage of.
Interestingly, outside of this community, how much business do you think Dali does? Since he continues to do business it would appear these threads are futile exercises in whining & spear throwing.
I don't happen to be a victim so I won't participate in the process, that's all I'm saying - Has no bearing on whether I believe this is acceptable business practise or if a criminal act has taken place.
I know a very simple process that is open to me & every other member of this site wrt whether I choose to do business with that entity.

whiteNSXs · 25 April 2004

D'Ecosse said:
Like the other Ken, I'm just tired of seeing countless threads all with no results, just noise-making. There are plenty of well-reprted processes here that victims should take advantage of.
Interestingly, outside of this community, how much business do you think Dali does? Since he continues to do business it would appear these threads are futile exercises in whining & spear throwing.
I don't happen to be a victim so I won't participate in the process, that's all I'm saying - Has no bearing on whether I believe this is acceptable business practise or if a criminal act has taken place.
I know a very simple process that is open to me & every other member of this site wrt whether I choose to do business with that entity.

Ken,
If you do what you preach, please refrain from further posting on this subject. Your comments do nothing but again perpetuate this subject which you have claimed neutrality and being "tired" of. Besides, this is not between you and me. I just happen to be quite passionate about this and I will continue to debate with the NSXGOD's worshippers. As you have implied that this is a free country, you are free to look and post elsewhere on other topics. Some members like to contribute heavily on topics involving scantily dressed women and so be it. Mind you that this is a free country, but not free to steal and defraud people. In fact, the so called "processes'' to bring Dali to address these claims have been futile and might even cost much more money than he owes. On the other hand, since Dali does business mainly on this board, I am sure raising awareness of his unethical practices will deter other potential victims.
Scott Peterson? Please!!! Michael Jackson might be a better choice.
Steve

D'Ecosse · 25 April 2004

whiteNSXs said:
On the other hand, since Dali does business mainly on this board, I am sure raising awareness of his unethical practices will deter other potential victims.

I believe I already made this point re where he does his business & it obviously doesn't make much of a deterrant.

whiteNSXs said:
Scott Peterson? Please!!! Michael Jackson might be a better choice.

I see no difference in either of these choices wrt guilt or innocence in knowledge vs perception.

It always amuses me when I read one member advising that another should refrain from posting comments in deference to the original continuing with their point. You should note that I never asked you to cease & desist, merely asked why you appeared so vigilant given your lack of personal greivance. I'm not sure why you are taking this hostile defence & emotional attack on my question or position.

I fear the subject matter is straying off the topic at hand, so with that I'll happily endorse your suggestion & let you go on to have the last word without further reply.

pko5 · 25 April 2004

D'Ecosse said:
I personally subscribe to "innocent until proven guilty" party.

How about "guilty until proven innocent" party? I suppose you think OJ Simpson is really NOT GUILTY? Unfortunately, our system doesn't work out right, but I agree with you that there should be a process to prove MJ is innocent. But how? First of all he doesn't respond to any phone calls or e-mails, unless your ordering some harness, exhausts or superchargers. In my home country, there is a saying "if you're guilty as charged, your conscience will eventually turn you into a mute". But then again, so does too much talking. So let me stop here.

pko5 · 25 April 2004

which one are you?

D'Ecosse said:
never asked you to cease & desist, merely asked why you appeared so vigilant given your lack of personal greivance.

There are 2 types of people. Ones who don't give a damn while some girl is being raped in a parking lot, an old lady is being mugged or some helpless female (my aunt) is stranded in the middle of nowhere on I-80 on their way to Lake Tahoe in the middle of winter because her car broke down. And there are others who try to help, even though they will have no financial gain and risk being injured/mugged/beaten themselves. I used to be the person who "didn't give a damn, it's none of my business, I'm not the one being raped/mugged/stranded".... until my aunt told me her story 12 years ago about a young man that helped her while 100's of cars passed her by. His words to her when she offered him money was "no thank you", in which she replied, "so how can I make this up to you for helping me?" and the young man replied, "when you see other people stranded or in need of help, please do your best to help them as I have helped you". My aunt realized then (being from another country) that it was people like this that made this country so great and powerful.
In all serious nature...MAY GOD CONTINUE TO BLESS AMERICA!

DannyC · 25 April 2004

I would love to help to prosecute this clown. The guy obviously has no response or respect for his customers (including me). If my name was getting smeared, I would defend myself appropriately, wouldn't you? BTW I am still waiting for my core return from June 2003 (have emails to prove it). I just cannot believe that this guy does not respond to all of the accusations.
I know that I have no credibility on this forum, but I have purchased MANY products from DALI and gotten most of them via COD or PayPal. However, getting screwd for $400 is a slap in the face for a fellow businessman . Can't get over that shit, PRINCIPAL!!!!

Regards,
Danny

whiteNSXs · 25 April 2004

D'Ecosse said:
I believe I already made this point re where he does his business & it obviously doesn't make much of a deterrant.

Ken,
You know how much money I have put into the my NSX and most items are carried by Dali. I took all the business elsewhere even though they might be cheaper at Dali. I'd rather pay more somewhere else than feeding that thief. I would say I am not the only one having the same sentiment. Don't you think it is working quite well so far to deter potential victims. I am sure now many NSXers who knew Guus also will take their business elsewhere.
Anyway, you are a good man and a upright citizen. I am not going to let these low life MJs get between our friendship. You and I are cool. Truce.
Steve

comquat1 · 25 April 2004

BTW I am still waiting for my core return from June 2003

I believe this pretty much a given for those who've purchased an item that requires a core.

Let's see..... add up all the unreturned core charges that I've read about....
Does that make it any more evident that Dali is screwing us?
So does it? Anyone? Anyone? Ah, who are we kidding, no one ever refunds a core charge.... Or maybe we should wait another year and see how many more people get taken, yeah, that's a good idea.

Everyone can accuse me of throwing gas on the fire but I'm mearly attempting to show what's happening here with a little sarcasm. If it wasn't obvious enough (with or with MJ's response).

D'Ecosse · 25 April 2004

whiteNSXs said:
You and I are cool. Truce.

Same!
Actually, I can't deny it has some effect - I have bought before with no problems, but probably wouldn't again, even before this Guus story. But obviously more do than don't or there wouldn't be a business. And none of this unfortunately gets Guus's family their money back.
Ok let's be sure I clear up any more misperceptions of what I'm saying ... I'm not endorsing or defending the behaviour or denying anyone their entitlement to receive their goods or refund.
Bad business-man? I think there's definitely evidence to that -
Thief? a bit strong (hopefully); maybe I'm just reticent to believe anyone so publicly atached to this forum would be so crass as to deliberately defraud or steal from anyone, especially the case at point in the thread header.
Do I suspect people are being cheated? Sure, if by definition they aren't receiving what they paid for - is this a deliberate act by intent to that purpose to defraud & steal? I really don't know - I hope not.

prova4re · 25 April 2004

D'Ecosse said:
And none of this unfortunately gets Guus's family their money back.

That is a good point, and a point that most of us are missing here.
Let's try to help the family, I am sure Guus's family could use the money.
I would be willing to donate a few bucks, to help them get back the money Guus spent for the rims.
This gesture is NOT to help Dali out, nor does it get him off the hook.

whiteNSXs · 25 April 2004

prova4re said:
I would be willing to donate a few bucks, to help them get back the money Guus spent for the rims.
This gesture is NOT to help Dali out, nor does it get him off the hook.

Great! Here is my pledge of $100 USD towards the legal fee Gerard will spend suing Mark. Just tell me how and when to pay.
Steve

Gerard van Santen · 25 April 2004

When I started this thread. I didn't have a clue that this would go this way. I started the thread because Mark didn't reply on my e-mails and PM.

I didn't say that Mark was a thief. I was only wondering myself what is the difference when I politely ask to return the money when delivering the wheels is no issue anymore and no answer follows.

Perhaps a bit naive but I was hoping Mark would contact me and solve the problem I started this thread for.

Unfortunatly he didn't so far.

Mark has a lot of NSX parts in Europe. His cars are in Germany and Guus took care of a lot of parts. These parts I take care of now.

I really want to stress that this is not about money. This counts also for the family. And I don't want it to be, given the situation! This is about friendship, respect and doing business the right way.

Please, Mark send me a PM and please Mark work al these things out not only for me but also for all the others. So we can say a hold to this thread. And we can go on with what bind us: our passion for the NSX.

Thanks,
Gerard

DutchBlackNsx · 25 April 2004

The other side of the story...

This is the first time i will comment on Marks business practices, next to a positive post towards Mark in the 'other' thread.

Guus was a friend of mine. When he was seriously ill, i went with him to belgium, looking for the rims he wanted, and he did find them, but ordered them with Mark, as always.
I think in the time that Guus ordered parts with Mark, never anything went wrong with that, actually, Guus was looking after 2 NSX's of Mark, here in Holland, and Guus got free-drivingtime in those NSX's in return from Mark (Guus his story).

Personally, i have met Mark a few times, and also have ordered parts with him, and besides some small glitches (happens everywhere), everything went as i can expect from a vendor.
For me no reason to stop ordering parts with him, but this story, together with the rest here on prime, makes me hesitate to order parts with him. Too bad, coz his business has a lot of potential.

Me myself, have always tought, hey, there are 2 sides to a story, which made me not to worry too much about the negative posts here on prime.

Gerard did NOT post this as a quicky. I have talked with him about this for a long time, if he would post this, and how to word it. For us, we wanted to make sure that we knew both sides of the story, hell, we both have our own businesses, and we both know how things can get ugly, by just a very little communications problem.

Gerard has Emailed Mark numerous times, asking for his side of the story, because we know Mark personally, and we didn't want to post such a thread without knowing both sides of the story.
Further investigations brought more bad businesspractices of Mark to daylight, but we have choosen not to comment on those, since they are not ours.
Especially since Mark and Guus had things going on, which we might not know evertyhing about. Mark could tell everything involved, and more. We would accept that. No problem.

The thing is, he NEVER responded, as soon as Gerard started asking about the rims, just as reported here by others before. For us that was the moment he was guilty. Harsh, but simply based on facts. Actualy, the word 'ignorant' is better, since he was given an ultimatum to come up with ANY information.

If us lot where in the states, maybe he would have been sued, who knows. Gerard deffinetely would have looked into that.
Maybe Mark has something on all cases against him, but doesn't waste his time sorting out someone elses problems. I can understand that as a business owner, but that is not how you run a business. Especialy in this case, where the person who knew it all has passed away.

For me the argument 'there are 2 sides to the story' is not valid anymore in this case.

PHOEN$X · 25 April 2004

Different point of view

nsxtasy said:
Just to sum up where this issue stands:

1. I have noted that we have not heard the complete story. Everyone else here has already made up their minds.

I'm not sure I follow this logic. Whether Mark deliberately chose to rip people off or it's simply a case of poor customer service, the end result is the same: those affected have not received products/services they paid for. How could hearing the "complete story" possibly excuse that fact? We have not heard the complete story from NSX Modified either, should people not be allowed to make up their minds until Larry publishes his memoirs?

One thing which apparently has been confirmed is that MJ/Dali received an "unsatisfactory" rating from the BBB; isn't that sufficient basis for people to form an opinion on this matter if nothing else?

nsxtasy said:
2. I have made some concrete suggestions for ways to resolve this issue that would involved finding out the whole story and, if it turns out to be appropriate, making financial restitution. Others have criticized these suggestions, but no one has presented any alternative suggestions that would straighten this out and, if needed, "make it right".

3. The only person who has presented any concrete suggestions to prevent such situations in the future is RSO 34. He has been ignored, and no one has taken him up on his suggestion.

While you and I may find those suggestions worthy of further investigation and follow-up, others may not. Does that mean they don't care about resolving these issues? I don't believe so; to me it just means they don't think those approaches will work.

nsxtasy said:
I can only conclude that the objective of most of those posting is NOT to find out the complete story, NOT to seek reimbursement if appropriate, and NOT to prevent such situations in the future - in other words, NOT to look at the situation objectively and figure out an appropriate go-forward approach - and that the only purpose of most of those posting is simply to embarrass Mark by sitting around pissing and moaning, and NOT to do anything constructive. RichH is right; you guys just sound like a hysterical lynch mob - "Let's go to his house!" "Let's sic the IRS on him!"

I think some folks are simply posting out of frustration because they have been unable to obtain satisfactory resolution via other means. In a way, they are trying to prevent such situations in the future by publicly voicing their frustrations.

Anyway, if we are to give MJ the benefit of the doubt, I think we owe the same to his critics as well.

Gerard van Santen · 25 April 2004

nsxtasy said:
I have noted that we have not heard the complete story.

Hi Ken,

Isn't this what it is all about? How do we get the complete story if Mark doesn't reply? And would I have started this thread if Mark had answered my e-mails? The only one who can make this story complete is Mark himself.

In that respect you can say we haven't heard the complete story.

Gerard

nsxtasy · 25 April 2004

nsxtasy[/i] [B]2. I have made some concrete suggestions for ways to resolve this issue that would involved finding out the whole story and said:
There have indeed been alternative suggestions made.

Not suggestions that would result in restitution where appropriate, which is what I specifically said in my post. Expelling Mark from the NSX Club of America would not result in any restitution. Filing 1099 forms with the IRS would not result in any restitution. Even the trader rating system, while a good idea (as I commented) would not do so, as you noted in your post.

Again, this goes back to objectives. What do people here want to accomplish? My primary objective would be to get restitution for Guus's estate (as well as for anyone else in other, similar instances). My secondary objective would be to prevent future such occurrences. I have no objective for public embarrassment - not only because I don't think it's appropriate conduct, but also because I think it would harm the chances of achieving my stated primary objective.

Sig said:
However... you criticized most of them....

No, I didn't. So please don't base your arguments about things I didn't say.

dnyhof said:
Ken, assuming we don't hear Dali's side of this argument (which is a good guess since that is his track record), what would you suggest we do?

I don't know. That's why I noted that no one else is suggesting anything else that might lead to appropriate restitution (which, again, is my personal preference). Maybe someone reading this is close enough to Mark that it could be discussed in private (although I have serious reservations about the chances of this prospect, based on past experience - and I concede that Mark's reticence is a major obstacle to any resolution). Maybe someone is an attorney in Southern California who would be willing to take this case on a pro bono basis as a service to Guus's estate and to the NSX community, and file civil litigation (i.e. NOT in small claims court). Maybe someone can suggest some other ideas that might resolve the situation. Our NSX community has immense talent and resources; IMO they just need to be applied in a way that will produce results, rather than continued animosity and frustration.

Sig · 25 April 2004

nsxtasy said:
Maybe someone reading this is close enough to Mark that it could be discussed in private (although I have serious reservations about the chances of this prospect, based on past experience - and I concede that Mark's reticence is a major obstacle to any resolution). Maybe someone is an attorney in Southern California who would be willing to take this case on a pro bono basis as a service to Guus's estate and to the NSX community, and file civil litigation (i.e. NOT in small claims court). Maybe someone can suggest some other ideas that might resolve the situation. Our NSX community has immense talent and resources; IMO they just need to be applied in a way that will produce results, rather than continued animosity and frustration.

There are two very good ideas in there and hopefully someone will step forward to help out.

1)An individual close to Mark on a personal level who may be able persuade Mark into working this out.

2)A local SoCal attorney helping out.

comquat1 · 25 April 2004

1)An individual close to Mark on a personal level who may be able persuade Mark into working this out.

One thing to add to this is not only work out the issue with Guus' estate, but everyone on here who's been more or less defauded. There's still people waiting for product(s) from months ago with no replies, reasons or refunds.

Can everyone at least agree on that? This is not just about Gerard getting Guus' money back but for everyone here (or not here) being taken care of like they should have been from the get go.

Sig · 25 April 2004

dnyhof said:
One thing to add to this is not only work out the issue with Guus' estate, but everyone on here who's been more or less defauded. There's still people waiting for product(s) from months ago with no replies, reasons or refunds.

I believe that was the context of Ken's idea. Certainly, a request that everyone is treated fairly by a vendor is reasonable.

Does Mark Johnson steal from a friend who died last year....?

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