Cars driven and comparisons...

[Z18]

I was thinking a fun thread might be 'sports cars/exotics driven' and how they compare with each other. The danger would be that it devolved into a religious debate with personal attacks or some such, but I bet we can not let that happen if we try. Rather, we could just share our experiences and talk about the plusses and minuses, and even how various cars compare to the NSX.

At the risk of sounding exclusionary, I'd prefer the opinions coming from people who've actually driven the cars, not from magazine articles or general speculation. And then, those of us who've been lucky enough to have driven various automobiles could answer questions from others who are curious. There are still many cars I've not driven and I’d certainly love to learn about them in any way I can.

So, without further ado, I'll start, but with a quick disclaimer: I've always loved sports cars ever since I was a kid and have made many efforts and sacrifices to both own and drive in as many as possible. I post my list not to 'brag'... nothing could be further from the truth. Nor do I post to infer that my opinions are somehow 'right' or that I'm an expert driver or anything of the sort; rather, I'm just happy to share my experiences with other enthusiasts and answer any queries I can, as well as hear from others.

(I also posted this on another thread earlier, but I fear it was lost and not very germane to the thread topic itself – this should be in its own thread, methinks)

------------------

Cars Driven Subjective Rank (all cars are stock)
Ferrari 360 Challenge 0 (rank zero because it's not a street legal car)
Ferrari F40 (euro) 1
Ferrari 360F1 Modena 2
Acura NSX Zanardi 3
Porsche 996TT 4
Ferrari 550 Maranello 5
Porsche 996 C4S 6
Corvette Z06 (375hp) 7
Dodge Viper GTS 8
Mazda RX-7 TT 9
Honda S2000 10
BMW M3 (E46 SMG) 11
Acura NSX-T '00 12
Lamborghini Diablo VT 13
Ferrari 355 Spider 14
Acura NSX '91 15
Corvette C5 16
Ferrari Testarossa 17
Acura Integra Type R 18
Acura RSX Type S 19

note: the subjective rank is just that: my personal taste. Factors for me include appearance, handling (cornering ability, grip), horsepower (0-60 as well as, say, 60-120), my preference for sports cars over GT cars, etc. One thing that I'm not factoring, btw, is cost.

Tracks Driven
Buttonwillow
California Speedway (not the oval yet )
Holtville
Laguna Seca
Las Vegas Speedway (road course)
Nurburgring
Pahrump
Streets of Willow
Willow Springs

-Z18

(just edited to add the 996 C4S that I recently drove)

[This message has been edited by Z18 (edited 11 August 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Z18 (edited 11 August 2002).]

[milz50]

Surprising (to me) that so many cars are between the Zanardi and the '00 NSX (or the '91, for that matter).

I've never driven a Zanardi and don't know too much about them. What, to you, makes it so much better (rigity + power, exclusivity, handling, etc.)?

[Z18]

Originally posted by milz50:
Surprising (to me) that so many cars are between the Zanardi and the '00 NSX (or the '91, for that matter).

I've never driven a Zanardi and don't know too much about them. What, to you, makes it so much better (rigity + power, exclusivity, handling, etc.)?

70% handling/rigidity, 20% performance (it being lighter... I get about a 4.7 second 0-60) and 10% styling (I LOVE those grey BBS rims).

Handling is VERY important to me, as I love to feel those G forces. In fact, handling and feel is probably most important to me in general, followed by horsepower/peformance (both 0-60 as well as 60-120), and then looks, build quality, etc. (top speed is totally irrelavent in that 140mph down the main straight at Willow Springs is plenty damn fast enough for me).

As most people I think agree, one of the first things you do to a stock NSX is make the suspension stiffer -- there's simply too much body roll stock. Once you do that, the NSX moves up significantly on my list, but I purposely made the list 'stock'. I'm confident the original Type R, Type S, Type S Zero, and new Type R would be ranked high as well -- I've just never had a chance to drive one

-Z18

[milz50]

Thanks for the quick response!

[Andrie Hartanto]

Ferrari F355 targa F1
Ferrari F355 spider
Ferrari 348 spider
Bugatti EB110
Porsche 993 turbo S
Porsche 993 Turbo
Porsche 993 C4S
BMW M3 (E36) SC
BMW M3 (E30)
Dodge Viper RT10
Nissan 300ZX TT
Lotus Esprit S4S
Mazda RX7 TT
Mazda Miata
97 NSX-T
92 NSX
Integra type R
RSX type S

only a few I driven on the track, so I can only give a short impression. The Porsche 993 Turbo S is the funnest of the bunch. The Bugatti EB110 was only driven very short period, but the acceleration is unbelievable.
There are probably a few cars I forgotten.

Track driven:
Buttonwillow
Laguna Seca
Thunderhill
Sears Point
Pahrump
Willow Springs

Wish list:
Cars:
1. Porsche GT3
2. any Ferrari period

track:
Nurburgring

[Z18]

Originally posted by Andrie Hartanto:
Bugatti EB110
Porsche 993 turbo S
Lotus Esprit S4S

Track driven:
Thunderhill
Sears Point

Wow! A Bugatti! Sweet! Tell us how you pulled that off!

I'd also love to drive a 993 Turbo S to see how it compares to a 996TT. I've also never driven a Lotus... what did you think of it?

Lastly, Thunderhill and Sears Point are definitely on my list of tracks to visit soon.

My dream track at this point, having already driven the Nurburgring in an F40, would be to drive a Ferrari at Suzuka! And, as far as dream drives: F50, F50GT, Enzo, and a McLaren F1

-Z18

[This message has been edited by Z18 (edited 12 August 2002).]

[8000RPM]

Originally posted by Z18:
Nurburgring in an F40

Wow... how was that experience like?!?

[Z18]

Originally posted by 8000RPM:
Wow... how was that experience like?!?

It was, quite simply, the most incredible car experience ever (followed second only by driving a 360 Challenge at Willow Springs).

A friend and I went on a trip to Germany and rented an F40, which we then drove both on the Autobahn and the Nurburgring.

Quick update for those of you who might not know about the Nurburgring:

In the town of Nurburg, about 40 or so miles outside of Bonn, there are two tracks, both considered the Nurburgring: the grand prix track (where they still do races) and the Nordschliefe, where anyone can drive on it -- you just put money into an automatic ticket dispenser, and head out onto the track.

This track is about 12 miles long and used to host Formula 1 races until I believe the early 70s when they stopped because the cars were going so fast that too many people were dying (I watched a show once on early F1, and the cars actually caught major air on that track – very scary).

There are many elevation changes, all sorts of turns, etc., and it's all in the middle of beautiful, forested Germany, with the ruins of the tower/castle of Nurburg visible at many points in the center.

Basically, I consider it the 'Mecca' for all sports car enthusiasts -- we all should make the journey there at least once in our lives.

Anyway, the F40 is incredible. I'd read horror stories as to how 'uncontrollable' the car is, and how if you aren't pointing in a straight line when the turbos kick in, that you shoot off the road and kill yourself (kinda like if you're an idiot and driving a souped up Viper).

This isn't true. While I've never driven a faster car (except maybe the 360 Challenge, but that's debatable (e.g. the F40 has more HP, but the 360 is lighter)), it is not only controllable, the turbo lag on my 996tt is more annoying (which I didn't expect -- I'd figured it would be much more primitive, given it was a 1992 car).

The handling was also incredible, and the car was set up with major camber.

I could go on and on, but I'll just relate the highlight of driving on the track... an event that still blows me away thinking about it to this day:

The majority of people on the track at any given time, assuming it's not raining (which it does a lot in Germany, at which point all the AWD cars come out to play) are sports bikes. I was in the F40 towards the latter part of the track, I think on the last or second to last turn before the main straight (which, if they didn't stop you in the middle of it to make you get off and then get back on, assuming you've paid, you could probably top out ANY car -- it's THAT long)... anyway, this GSXR-750 rips by me (I'm driving the F40 hard, but not super hard because a. it's not my car, b. I'm still learning the car, and c. it's like my 3rd lap ever on the track itself). So I let the bike go by me, try to keep up with him a bit, and then we hit the main straight.

We're both doing probably 80-100mph, and he is probably 3-4 car lengths ahead of me, and we both punch it -- full acceleration. And that's when the most incredible thing happened.

I started catching up with the bike.

As most of you probably know, cars are fast, but sport bikes are almost always faster, especially in acceleration. But here I was, in a car (granted, one of the fastest production cars ever built), pulling on a GSXR-750.

Anyway, I almost caught up with him when we were forced to decelerate because of the aforementioned fact that you have to get off the track in the middle of the main straight. But that race from 80mph or so to 150+mph I will never forget. And I'm also confident that had we the room, the F40 would have overtaken the bike somewhere between 150mph and 200mph quite easily.

It really highlighted one of those weird facts of physics: horsepower to weight helps at the lower end (0-60, quarter-mile), but sheer HP itself matters more at the higher end (like accelerating from, say, 80-150).

-Z18

[Zanardi 50]

Originally posted by Z18:


This track is about 12 miles long and used to host Formula 1 races until I believe the early 70s when they stopped because the cars were going so fast that too many people were dying (I watched a show once on early F1, and the cars actually caught major air on that track – very scary).


-Z18

I believe the last race there was the 73 (or 74) F-1 German GP when Niki Lauder (currently owner of Jaguar/Cosworth's F-1 team) went off of the chicane and crashed while racing in his Ferrari and caught on fire. He had some serious burns in addition to other serious injuries but was VERY fortunate to be alive. Since then FIA banned all types of official racing on that track. FYI, correct me if I'm a bit off.
Z18, thanks for rating the NSX-Z so high on your list. BTW do you own one, hence your user name Z18? Just curious.


**EDIT** Niki Lauda was, at one time, the team manager of Jaguar F-1, not owner. Hence, I apologize for the misinformation. :o

[Z18]

Originally posted by Andrie Hartanto:
Ferrari F355 targa F1
Ferrari F355 spider
Ferrari 348 spider
Bugatti EB110
Porsche 993 turbo S
Porsche 993 Turbo
Porsche 993 C4S
BMW M3 (E36) SC
BMW M3 (E30)
Dodge Viper RT10
Nissan 300ZX TT
Lotus Esprit S4S
Mazda RX7 TT
Mazda Miata
97 NSX-T
92 NSX
Integra type R
RSX type S

Hey Andrie, you also forgot to subjectively rank your list!

-Z18

[Z18]

Originally posted by Zanardi 50:
Z18, thanks for rating the NSX-Z so high on your list. BTW do you own one, hence your user name Z18? Just curious.

You bet, my brother -- I own #18 (hence the name).

Cars owned (currently, or in the past):
'93 Mazda RX-7tt
'99 Zanardi NSX #18
'99 Ferrari 360 Modena F1
'00 Honda S2000
'02 Porsche 996tt

-Z18 (who thinks if a man can only have one wife, he ought to then at least be allowed multiple sports cars )

[Number9]

Cars:
Formula Dodge
Formula Ford
Zanardi NSX SC/High Boost
Dodge Viper GTS ACR
Porsche 996 Turbo
Corvette Z06
Ferrari 355
Dinan S3 BMW E36 M3 SC (intercooled)
BMW M5
Lotus Esprit V8-TT
Mazda RX-7 TT
Supra TT
Nissan 300ZX TT
Mitsubishi 3000 VR-4
NSX-T (stock 95)
Datsun 240Z 3.0L stroker
Lotus Europa
Porsche 993 Convertible
Roush Mustang

Tracks:
Laguna Seca
PIR

OK, so I'm biased towards the formula cars, even though they're not the fastest. They do create a more zen-like oneness with the course though. If the Viper had NSX like ergo and visibility, I would have picked it first. I actually didn't like the the 996TT, not because it wasn't fast but because its ergo kinda sucks compared to the NSX and it didn't have that immediate twitchy, torquey, fast steering reponse/feedback as the Viper. The 355 is beautiful, sounds great, but it wasn't even as good as my Zanardi when it was stock...

[This message has been edited by Number9 (edited 11 August 2002).]

[maomaonsx]

rental cars driven:

Doge neon
Vovlo S80
Volvo S70
Dodge minivan
lincoln LS
Mitsubishi Mirage

no subjective rating because they all suck. Although I would recommend renting through Thrifty. Last time I rented with them, they included some "complimentary" pot scent left by previous renter. It was definately a "fun" trip with that car.

Tracks driven:
my driveway


wish list:

cars:
I have always wanted to rent a red mustang covnertible with automatic to cruise up and down my local high schools.

tracks:
I would like to drive our Bay Area Bart's train track from San Francisco to the East bay.


------------------
George W
Porsche 996 for sale!

[This message has been edited by maomaonsx (edited 12 August 2002).]

[8000RPM]

Pretty funny, George!

[Andrie Hartanto]

Originally posted by Z18:
Wow! A Bugatti! Sweet! Tell us how you pulled that off!

I'd also love to drive a 993 Turbo S to see how it compares to a 996TT. I've also never driven a Lotus... what did you think of it?

Lastly, Thunderhill and Sears Point are definitely on my list of tracks to visit soon.

My dream track at this point, having already driven the Nurburgring in an F40, would be to drive a Ferrari at Suzuka! And, as far as dream drives: F50, F50GT, Enzo, and a McClaren F1

-Z18

My college friend own 2 of those baby. He is extremely rich, ordered 2 and took delivery from the factory along with 2 big U-haul size boxes of Bugatti goodies. One thing I didn't understand is, both cars were black.

I didn't get to ride for long, just a sprint ride for a couple of blocks around his house. So, I can't really comment, other than it is really fast (acceleration wise).

Both cars are gone, shipped to his country when he finished school. He still has over 10 cars here in storage, which among others are the Mercedes Gullwing, Ferrari 328 turbo, and a retired Indy car.

[This message has been edited by Andrie Hartanto (edited 12 August 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Andrie Hartanto (edited 12 August 2002).]

[Andrie Hartanto]

Originally posted by Z18:
Hey Andrie, you also forgot to subjectively rank your list!

-Z18

I can't really rank them, cause mostly I drove only for short period of time. Like 15 minutes long. With the exception of few cars like the 993 Turbo S, the Lotus, M3s, NSX, miata. To rank them base on my limited experience would be unfair.

The 993 Turbo S is the funnest car I ever driven. I was lucky enough to have the car for a weekend, courtesy of a friend.

The Lotus, is definitely one of the worse car to drive. There is nothing about the car that I like, other than the looks. I was seriously considering to buy this before I picked my NSX. Boy, I'm glad I didn't. If there is one car, I have to rank last, this might be it. Although I heard, the new V8 is a vast improvement.

Join us in the NSXCA school on Sept 3. I know it is weekdays, but try to make it. If not, you can always join us in Thunderhill, on my very own track event on Nov 24, which is Sunday, a week before thanksgiving weekend.

[nsxtasy]

Cars: Too many to remember.

Tracks: I'll not only list them, but rank them as well (based on an overall "fun factor"):

Mid-Ohio (OH) - 4 stars
Road Atlanta (GA) - 3.5 stars
Watkins Glen (NY) - 3.5 stars
Grattan (MI) (counterclockwise) - 3.5 stars
Grattan (MI) (clockwise) - 3 stars
Laguna Seca (CA) - 3 stars
GingerMan (MI) - 3 stars
Spring Mountain Motorsports Park (NV) - 2.5 stars
Putnam Park (IN) - 2.5 stars
Road America (WI) - 2.5 stars
Indianapolis Raceway Park (IN) - 2.5 stars
Bridgehampton (NY) - 2.5 stars
Waterford Hills (MI) - 2 stars
Gateway International (IL) (old course) - 2 stars
Gateway International (IL) (oval/infield) - 2 stars
Michigan International Speedway (MI) (oval/infield) - 1.5 stars
Blackhawk Farms (IL) - 1 star
Nelson Ledges (OH) - 1 star

[Jimbo]

Ken,

Why did you rate Road America rate the way you did?

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Jimbo:
Why did you rate Road America rate the way you did?

I downgraded it for the fun factor of the track. For some other characteristics - natural beauty, and the local amenities - I would rate it much higher.

I find Road America to rate low in terms of challenge and in terms of activity. It's the only track I've driven where there is a straightaway between each pair of turns. After you track out of a turn, you have a chance to straighten the car out, check your gauges, think about where you're going for dinner , and eventually start to move over to the proper edge of the track to set up for the next turn. Compare with Mid-Ohio, where the turns are connected as sequences; there, the track-out of each turn throws you right into the setup for the turn which follows. If you mess up one turn, it will mess up the 2-3 turns which follow, but when you get them all right, it feels SOOOO good. Mid-Ohio is very challenging and engaging for this reason. Also, some of the other tracks that I rate much higher have significant elevation changes (as does Road America) but combine those with steep banking that is on-camber or even off-camber (e.g. Grattan) to make the turns much more complex and interesting. The top four tracks in the list all have stretches that seem to simulate a roller coaster.

[docjohn]

Ken,I can understand your reasoning for R.A. but whazup with the bridge?That was the womb of road racing in our half of the nation,and although long, had more rythm and more deer than the other long tracks!

[nsxtasy]

I've had a few other people tell me how much they loved the Bridge, but it just didn't "do anything" for me. It was fun - heck, all tracks are fun - but I just didn't see much in the way of "rhythm" (now left, now right, now left, now right, etc) or camber or much of anything else. Just my O, feel free to disagree - it's all a matter of personal taste. Still, we can all feel a sense of loss from a sight like this:

[Z18]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
Cars: Too many to remember.

Ah, such modesty... come on, list the top 5 or 10 exotics you've driven and how you'd rate them -- we'd love to hear

-Z18 (who hopes one day he'll have driven so many he forgets too

[kenjiMR]

This is a good thread.
I'd love to list all the cool cars I've driven on the track... but unfortunately, my experience is ultra limited.

Cool cars (to me) I've driven:

94 NSX w/suspension mods and racing seat/wheel (mine)
87 MR2 w/suspension mods and racing seat/wheel (mine)
95 M3 Lightweight (George's)
00 Audi S4
01 M3 6 Speed
91 MR2 Turbo

Tracks:
Thunderhill (6)
Laguna Seca (1)
Button Willow (1)
Sears Point (1)

I like Thunderhill the most because it is the track I am most comfortable with. I am looking forward to driving a co-worker's new M3 SMGII... I've got a lot of co-workers with fancy cars, but I gotta ask them if they wanna swap drives...

My NSX has given me the most fun out of the cars I've driven with my MR2 a close second.

Cars I want to drive:
Any Ferrari (especially F40,F50,F355,F360)
Viper GTS ACR
Porsche GT3
Porsche GT2
NSX-Z/R
Lotus Elise


[This message has been edited by kenjiMR (edited 12 August 2002).]

[bill92nsx]

This is my list of favorite exotics and how I rate them in no particular order though

1. Acura NSX--what it lacks in performance it more than makes up for in handling and fun factor. Car is easy to live in day in and day out. Ultra reliable and maintenance costs are low. A great choice for a first exotic.
2. Ferrari Testarossa--one of the greatest grand tourers ever made. Comfortable yet powerful. Handling is ok not superb. One of the greatest designs ever made
3. Ferrari 355--great all around car. Can be used as daily driver but why bother. Great handling, good performance, comfortable and an exhaust note that will make you think you are in a formula one car
4. Ferrari 328--beautiful design. Handling is OK and performance is OK as well. Comfortable, very reliable for a Ferrari, easy to maintain. Lots of flex in the GTS.
5. Lotus v8TT--absolutely great car all around. The most precise steering I have ever felt. Makes you feel one with the road. Acceleration is out of this world, as is steering. Handling is way up there too, and also very comfortable. Might be cramped for some and interior may make one feel claustophobic. Crappy gearbox, though.
6. Porsche 993tt-- very powerful and fast car but very harsh. Does not handle potholes and bumps too well. Actually preferred a Carrera 2S over the twin turbo. Comfortable inside with lots of room. Steering and handling are good but power is overwhelming. Great gearbox and can take abuse all day and ask for more.
7. Lamborghini Countach--great looking car on the outside, but still looks like a kit car. Poorly made. Same goes with the interior. Looks like an afterthought. Interior very tight and cramped and uncomfortable for anyone over 5'8''. Handles like a truck but has awesome power.
8. Lamborghini Diablo--One step ahead of the Countach. Interior is updated but still cramped and tight. Handling and steering is improved. Power is just awesome. First gear takes you to almost 70mph. Lots of torque and will spin tires at 70 mph. Great looking car but very very wide and difficult to drive in urban areas.

These are all the exotics I have driven and can give you an idea of. These are just my opinions. My personal favorite of all these is the Lotus. Great bang for the buck and the closest thing to a race car. I have driven alot more cars butt not long enough to really make an evaluation

[Number9]

Sheesh Kenji, if you wanted to drive a hot-rodded Zanardi, you just needed to ask! I'm still working on the GT2 thing...

[This message has been edited by Number9 (edited 12 August 2002).]