View Full Version : Clearcoat on NSX?
I noticed (while polishing with 3M Imperial hand Glaze), that my 91 Red NSX is not clear-coated - saw red color in the towel.
Was wondering if Acura ever made the switch and started applying clearcoat to later NSX's.
Red NSXs have clearcoat on the paint with the exception that the clearcoat is tinted in red. That's why you are seeing some red on your cleaning towel.
You shouldn't see red on your cloth from using 3M Imperial Hand Glaze. This product isn't abrasive. In fact, it's a temporary filler, suitable for cars at car shows, since its effects disappear the first time the car gets rained on.
It may be that this 12 year old car has some oxidation or mild paint breakdown that the cleaner in Hand Glaze ( stoddard solvent) is picking up. It may even be some residual from other wax/polish applications. I can't understand what Acura/Honda was thinking not putting a final clear on theses cars to seal in the tint coat.
I think you could be right - I went over a few areas of the car with 3M Finesse-it Fine Polish first - probably was from that.
Very interesting - I've never heard of Red-tinted Clear-Coat - sounds kind of like red paint.
The base color is actually a bit of orange than just red and the tint is actually slightly purple rather than a straight red.
Or did I get that backwards?
Has Honda changed the paint process at all in the history of the NSX? Is there really no final clear coat applied?
Soichiro
04-16-2003, 15:05
>>Is there really no final clear coat applied?
You doubt the wisdon of 10,000 posts (nsxtasy)?
All NSX's have a clear coat. The fact that it's tinted on the red cars is no big deal. Lamborghini (and probably others) do this with these colors too. The goal is to make the red look deeper, and/or to slightly change the hue if the paint is viewed directly or from an oblique angle.
Really!
nicholas421
04-16-2003, 15:27
i just had my nsx repainted because the clear coat came off with some stickers i had on it. the body shop guy said that should never happen to a properly prepped car. the bond between the paint and the clear coat should be stronger than the bond between the sticker and the clear coat. i wonder if my nsx was just in a bad batch coming out of the factory or if there is a flaw in their prepping process.
I'm not sure what instructions to give the body shop - and it seems that they're just going to clear coat everything, because this is what they do to everything without even thinking about it.
The polishing rags are definitely coming up with red paint on them - so that's why I thought that maybe they didn't clear coat the early models. Mine is a 91 (and FWIWwas the 944th one made..).
Is there some "official" Acura guide or instructions I can give to the body shop?
Originally posted by PhilH
Is there some "official" Acura guide or instructions I can give to the body shop?
Sure - find a different body shop.
Something like 70+ body shops around the country have had personnel trained by Acura in repair of aluminum cars and the NSX in particular. Since your body shop obviously doesn't know what it's doing, I wouldn't trust them with my NSX.
If you call Acura customer service (the number is in your owner's manual), they should be able to give you the names of body shops in your area that have received NSX training.
Soichiro
04-16-2003, 19:33
>>i wonder if my nsx was just in a bad batch
What is your VIN?
The effect of a tinted clear coat is used in many colors on many types of vehicles from mini-vans to exotics. It's commonly referred to as tri-stage or 3 stage paint.
It was a fairly new technique in 1990-1991 when the first NSX's were rolled out. In my opinion it was ill concieved to not have a final clear coat over the tinted clear. Eventually as the paint ages and is polished and waxed the finish will have a mottled look as you removed small amounts of the finish from age, waxing etc..
Putting a clear over the tinted mid-coat is the suggested repair method by DuPont and most major paint suppliers that I know of.
My car was built the same day as this one, and I can assure you that my finish is doing just fine, thanks. I'm constantly amazed at the quality of the finish on my car. Kudos to Acura.
Originally posted by pbassjo
Eventually as the paint ages and is polished and waxed the finish will have a mottled look as you removed small amounts of the finish from age, waxing etc..
What do you mean by "eventually"? Because it's thirteen years now, and that just ain't happenin'. Then again, I've been very conscientious about my car's finish, giving it only the best care, with Zymol premium waxes. Then again, I take the same care with all my cars, and the finish on all of them looks terrific, even after many years.
The NSX isn't perfect, but the quality of the finish sure isn't a problem area, as long as it's been properly maintained.
I said something about the quality of the finish of the NSX in my post?
The quality is excellent, period.
The tint coat should have had a clear coat over it for the rest of the world outside Chicago where oxidation and friction does occur at the hands of the less conscientious.
I'm not the only person who has seen a "mottled" finish on a red NSX where spots of the tint coat has been rubbed thinner than the surrounding areas. This could have been averted with a protecting clear coat, like is on all the other Honda/Acura finishes.
rrwildman
04-17-2003, 01:56
>>>i just had my nsx repainted because the clear coat came off with some stickers i had on it.
Are you sure that was factory paint? The only times I've ever seen clear coat 'come off' a Honda was bad repaint work (where it's not uncommon). If that was factory paint, those must have been some really nasty stickers you had!!
- Richard
The best way to tell for the novice is to look at the underside of the sticker. Does it have a red/violet tint? If it does it probably is the oem paint. If not, it was most likely a repaint. The body shop you are using, or thinking of using, should be able to tell.
Why would someone want to put stickers on a painted surface of their NSX? Eeeeeeeeeekkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk!
nicholas421
04-17-2003, 08:20
forgot to mention that my nsx is sebring silver. it had the original paint... my body shop guy confirmed it.
the stickers were sponsor stickers from the players run.
Originally posted by pbassjo
I'm not the only person who has seen a "mottled" finish on a red NSX where spots of the tint coat has been rubbed thinner than the surrounding areas. This could have been averted with a protecting clear coat, like is on all the other Honda/Acura finishes.
Wow.... I have to admit that I never knew this and it's kind of shocking. Honda has to be kidding not updating the $90,000 car to at least match all of the other (mainly budget) models they sell. This is a huge disappointment, to be honest (having just got an 03)
When the NSX came out in '91, the 28-step paint finish process was the best in the business, easily better than that of the top luxury cars from Europe and Japan.
I don't know if that is still true or not.
Originally posted by spookyp
Wow.... I have to admit that I never knew this and it's kind of shocking. Honda has to be kidding not updating the $90,000 car to at least match all of the other (mainly budget) models they sell. This is a huge disappointment, to be honest (having just got an 03)
Long Beach Blue has a clear coat over the color coats. Believe me you have the one of best finishes on a production car in the world. You have nothing to be disappointed about. I was referring to the Formula Red color and am not sure it even applies to the New Formula Red which I haven't had a chance to check out to see if it too has the final coat as a tinted one.
From the factory, the NSX has a benchmark finish that stands apart and above the rest. It is awesome. BMW, Porsche, Mercedes are clean to be sure, but not as smooth and reflective as the NSX. Put a new NSX's nest to a Porsche and you will see a smoother, more reflective finish, at least to my eye.
Understand the bar has been raised considerably in the automotive world when it come to finish and even the finish on budget vehicles would put the best from 10-15 years ago to shame. Developing the NSX helped Honda to find new limits and they have applied the lessons learned to all their vehicles.
Wash, clay and Zymol a new Civic and you'll see what I mean.
Originally posted by nicholas421
forgot to mention that my nsx is sebring silver. it had the original paint... my body shop guy confirmed it.
the stickers were sponsor stickers from the players run.
Stickers have glue, which contains type of slow drying solvent. The paint on your car is solvent based. The glue can penetrate the clear and loosen it's bond to the substrate color coat especially on older finishes that are cured, dried and solvent starved. If you don't use care such as heat and/or a mild solvent, like prep sol to soften the glue so that it's bond is lessened you run the risk of delamination (pulling off the clear) when you remove them. Put the event stickers on the glass hatch instead.
Just spoke to Wagon Work -
At first they said that they believed that all NSX's were clear-coated. Then I told him about the rag coming up red when I was polishing - and he said he thought maybe Acura used a "single stage paint process".
He dismissed the 3-step process and also the red-tinted clear coat that has been discussed here.
Anyone have their NSX painted recently that might be able to provide a little more insight into this?
From the FAQ:
The NSX uses a "4-coat, 4-bake" process. The layers (from top to bottom) are: Clear coat, Base coat, 2nd color-primer, 1st color-primer, Electro-deposition coat, Chromate coat, Bare aluminum.
These are applied in the following 27-step process (from start to finish): degrease / water rinse / chromate coat / water rinse / air dry / electro-deposition coat / water rinse / bake /anti-moisture sealant / anti-corrosion undercoat / bake / anti-chipping primer / first color-primer / bake / hand wet-sanding / forced-air dry / second color-primer /bake / base coat / forced air blow off / clear coat / bake / roof painting / flash-off / clear coat / bake / anti-corrosion hot wax injection / final assembly
Originally posted by PhilH
Just spoke to Wagon Work - At first they said that they believed that all NSX's were clear-coated. Then I told him about the rag coming up red when I was polishing - and he said he thought maybe Acura used a "single stage paint process". He dismissed the 3-step process and also the red-tinted clear coat that has been discussed here.
He is wrong. The paint process is described in detail in this book from Acura http://www.nsxprime.com/Gallery/press/tidh/tidh-20.htm
It does not specifically mention the tinted clearcoat on the red cars, but if you have seen a wrecked one where some clearcoat was separated from the rest of the paint, it's obvious. It's also self-evident from the red on your rag since the car is obviously clearcoated.
Originally posted by PhilH
Just spoke to Wagon Work -
At first they said that they believed that all NSX's were clear-coated. Then I told him about the rag coming up red when I was polishing - and he said he thought maybe Acura used a "single stage paint process".
He dismissed the 3-step process and also the red-tinted clear coat that has been discussed here.
Anyone have their NSX painted recently that might be able to provide a little more insight into this?
My insight is not to ask advice from someplace that doesn't know anything about the NSX. ;)
Originally posted by Lud
He is wrong. The paint process is described in detail in this book from Acura http://www.nsxprime.com/Gallery/press/tidh/tidh-20.htm
It does not specifically mention the tinted clearcoat on the red cars, but if you have seen a wrecked one where some clearcoat was separated from the rest of the paint, it's obvious. It's also self-evident from the red on your rag since the car is obviously clearcoated.
Are you saying that the red-tint in the clear coat was obvious?
I'm wondering if people are actually getting the tinted-clear coat or just plain clear-coat when they get paint work done on their NSX.
Originally posted by PhilH
I'm wondering if people are actually getting the tinted-clear coat or just plain clear-coat when they get paint work done on their NSX.
The tinted clear coat is from the factory. An aftermarket paint job is going to use red paint and a regular (not tinted) clearcoat. The materials and process for aftermarket paint are very different than original factory paint for a number of reasons.
Originally posted by Lud
An aftermarket paint job is going to use red paint and a regular (not tinted) clearcoat.
Are you sure about that? It's not possible for a body shop to use a base coat and a tinted clear coat like the original finish?
OK, here it is:
1)The factory Formula Red is base coat, tinted clear coat.
2)In the aftermarket (here in the field) it is the following: base coat, mid coat(tinted clear), clear coat.
3)Most paint companies have converted the formula to a base/clear formula and offer it as a alternative to the 3 stage method but to me it does not look correct. To my eye it needs the magenta mid coat to achieve the blue/violet hue at the side angle.
4)The main difference between what is done in the field vs. the factory is that the factory did not put on a additional clear coat over the tinted clear coat. Since you will most certainly have to sand/buff the NSX to get that perfect smooth NSX finish it is required to have a final clear over the mid coat so no to have a uneven tint on the car.(the red on the rag!)
5)ALL the other colors are base coat, clear coat from the factory and IMO should be done the same in the field.
Disagree and you must drink ZAINO!
Originally posted by PhilH
Just spoke to Wagon Work -
He dismissed the 3-step process and also the red-tinted clear coat that has been discussed here.
Anyone have their NSX painted recently that might be able to provide a little more insight into this?
He dismissed it because he doesn't know better. That is not to say he is not a great painter it siimply means he doesn't know he is wrong. To the uninformed painter in the field base/tinted clear with no additional clear coat is unthinkable and thinks it doe not exist. He doesn't know. That's why right away he thought it was single stage paint when the buff rag turns red.
The situation on Formula Red is an exception.
Please I meant no insult to the people at this shop's skill.
I meant no insult, either. He may be a great painter, with good ability to fix other types of cars. But he is indeed "uninformed" when it comes to the NSX. And there are enough body shops that are better informed (or would at least be willing to research it further when hearing it from a customer) that I wouldn't want to take my NSX to this particular body shop.
I've heard from people in the DC area that Wagon Work is very good, and has actually worked on several NSXs, but I have no personal experience with them.
I did not mean to imply it was not possible for an aftermarket shop to do a tinted clear coat. I just think it's very uncommon and the vast majority of red NSXs that are repainted simply get the color/clear formulation. I'm glad to hear pbassjo's shop uses the tint coat, but I think he is the exception...? Even then it's not the same paint used at the factory, but that doesn't mean it's worse, just different.
pbassjo - Did you repaint an early year NSX yellow back in '97 or '98? I saw one up in your area in '98 and it was a nice job.
Originally posted by Lud
I did not mean to imply it was not possible for an aftermarket shop to do a tinted clear coat. I just think it's very uncommon and the vast majority of red NSXs that are repainted simply get the color/clear formulation.
When I had my hood replaced, I took it to a body shop in my area that had gone through the Acura training and had done work on many NSXs. They used the tinted clear coat, too.
I'm sure if I took it to every body shop in the Chicago area, most wouldn't bother with a tinted clear coat. But the good ones - meaning, the ones with NSX training and experience - do.
No, I wasn't me. The only yellow I know of in my neck of the woods belong to Dave Swartz when he brings it to work in Fishkill. His car is special all the way around. A warrior.(fast)
There is another red and rumor has it a, silver. There was a white but it was sold.
By the by there are several cars that have 3 stage paint. Chrysler and Honda both have a couple others. Three stage paint is a important tool and can be used in different situations, even on non 3 stage cars to adjust color. You just don't want to go as far as the Formula Red where it is so apparent you can see it.
The yellow pearl on the NSX is two stage but if I remember correctly the S2000 yellow pearl is a three stage or, at least that's what I have done with it.
I wonder what company provides the color for the NSX. Maybe Suntron?Most companies don't use just one paint supplier for all their colors and bid them out individually. The Corvette is one exception though because they, from the factory, have all been DuPont from the beginning, or so I've seen them claim in print ads.
I want to give the paint instructions to Wagonwork - The person I spoke with said he could do anything I wanted - but I needed to let him know exactly what in regard to tinted clearcoat, etc. Apparently, this info is not available from Acura.
Was wondering if anyone would be able to find out exactly what the color code might be for the tinted clearcoat - or possibly a little more info as opposed to just telling them that it's "tinted".
Thanks.
Originally posted by nsxtasy
When I had my hood replaced, I took it to a body shop in my area that had gone through the Acura training and had done work on many NSXs.
If you don't mind me asking, what happened to your hood? Did you crash into something at the track? I'm just surprised because I had this image of your car being a pristine, completely original NSX.
Originally posted by PhilH
I want to give the paint instructions to Wagonwork - The person I spoke with said he could do anything I wanted - but I needed to let him know exactly what in regard to tinted clearcoat, etc. Apparently, this info is not available from Acura.
Was wondering if anyone would be able to find out exactly what the color code might be for the tinted clearcoat - or possibly a little more info as opposed to just telling them that it's "tinted".
Thanks.
Give them the color code (R-77) and tell them it is a 3 stage.
They should be able to figure it out from there. They can turn to Tech. Support from the paint manufacturer whose product line they use if they need formula guidance.
silverNEEK
04-23-2003, 23:43
Is the clear coat (with color as has been discussed) common to many hondas with a red color? I noticed this on my little sisters red 94 del sol and my cousins red 95 intergra (i dont know off hand their color codes). You can get red to come off when polishing with a rubbing compound or cleaner. You can also see some of the purple on worn areas and have been told their cars go through a multi step process too, in order to get the final red color. Is this similar to what we are speaking about in this thread??? Just curious.
nik
Originally posted by PHOEN$X
If you don't mind me asking, what happened to your hood? Did you crash into something at the track? I'm just surprised because I had this image of your car being a pristine, completely original NSX.
Some years ago I was driving to Mid-Ohio, and ahead of me a truck lost a big chunk (maybe 4-5 feet long) of tread from one of its tires. I thought the car ahead would straddle it, but instead it kicked it up. Then
http://forums.off-topic.net/images/smilies/hitit.gif
It put a dent in the hood the size of a tennis ball, and shattered one of the headlight covers. Insurance covered it (as comprehensive). The repair job was quite good; in most lighting everyone but pbassjo would never ever be able to tell.
I have a completely original NSX if you count the original hood that now hangs on the wall of my garage, and the shattered headlight cover that's in my basement.
Bad things happen, but with stuff like this you realize it's not the end of the world.
Originally posted by nik3sgte
Is the clear coat (with color as has been discussed) common to many hondas with a red color? ...
Is this similar to what we are speaking about in this thread???
nik
Yep.
My car hadn't been driven in 2 years - and I had to go and get my emissions inspection. So, I uncovered my beautiful car (after making sure that the weather forecast did not have any precipitation in it), and put some air in the tires, and a few dollars of gas in it.
On the way, a deer jumped out of the woods and I swerved to avoid it, went off the road a little bit and hit a large muddy puddle - and then a large rock that was at the end of the mud/puddle. The front lower valence/spoiler get screwed up and the front bumper cover also got scraped. Very depressing to have kept the car in pristine condition with only 3K miles in 13 years only to have this happen.
I know that they are going to have to replace the lower valence - because it is cracked. The bumper cover will probably be refinished to get the scrape out (I assume this is possible). I was concerned about the paint matching -- and that's why I posted this question in the first place.
Anyway - that's my sad story....
Sorry to hear about your incidents, nsxtasy and PhilH. I'm glad you guys are okay though.
Papalazarou
09-16-2007, 16:51
Just stumbled over this thread and was a little confused by some of the comments. Somewhere in the thread, I think posted by "pbassjo" and I could be wrong, there is an inference that the only NSX colour to get a tinted clearcoat is the formula red and that the longbeach blue received a standard non-tinted final clearcoat.
The reason that I ask is that I have a LLB and when cutting the paint back to get rid of some scratches, I get a lot of blue coming off on the rag from all panels apart from one that was reprayed before I owned the car.
This to me concludes that LLB has a tinted final coat.
Cheers,
James.
Soichiro
09-17-2007, 16:43
This could be the result of you having NO clear left on the panels - you are removing your paint, which is why the rag is blue. Go easy!!
Papalazarou
09-20-2007, 10:21
This could be the result of you having NO clear left on the panels - you are removing your paint, which is why the rag is blue. Go easy!!
I'd considered that, but the blue comes off all the panels equally and there's no dulling of the colour which makes me think that the blue cars have the same paint process as the formula red ones.
Cheers,
James.
NSXFRIEND
09-20-2007, 14:21
Is it true early 91's had extra coat clear/paint?
I'd considered that, but the blue comes off all the panels equally and there's no dulling of the colour which makes me think that the blue cars have the same paint process as the formula red ones.
Cheers,
James.Long Beach Blue Pearl is a Metallic Blue Basecoat that is almost Purple and a Translucent Blue Clearcoat. (tinted clear). I recently had the front of mine repainted.
Papalazarou
09-23-2007, 15:09
Cool. I thought that was probably the case.
Cheers,
James.
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