NSX @ Mid-Ohio

[GhettoRacer]

I went out to Mid-Ohio to instruct for Todd Serota's TracQuest.
Among many students I had over there, one of them had a nice
NSX. Shawn Sejera. His car is a 91 3.0. Very minimal mods.
Eibach Springs, Koni shocks. 235/40/17 and 285/35/18 shaved
Kumho's. The car felt really really good. Here are several
pix of the car at speed. Just thought I'd share.

http://www.g-speed.com/eg2/tq-midohio-0403/P4155346.JPG

few more pix at: http://www.g-speed.com/eg2/tq-midohio-0403

Come on you NSX owners, NSX can only be truly appreciated at
the track. Where are you guys?!?!?! So few of you track the car on a consistant basis.

Shawn has some nice in car footages. We'll share them soon.

[NSX 3.0]

I agree only 12 days and I'm on the Track.





Steven 91 Blk/Ivory :D

[Ponyboy]

Doh! Frank hijacked my thread that I was going to post tonight. Thanks Frank!

Here's my recap:

My buddy, Grubb, and I decided to hit Mid-Ohio this year and the track turned out to be better than what I thought it would be. As far as technicality, it's on par with my home track, Hallett, but there is so much more of it.

The trip started out well enough but early - had to wake up at 5AM to get to the "meet" spot. Yes, the first thing that came to my head when I got in the truck was "Shawney sleepie." Meet Grubb and we were on our way with limited knowledge of our 2 way radios. Umpteen sodas, twizzlers, tortilla chips, 44 "I gotta pee" from weak-bladder Grubb stops, and 14 1/2 hours later we get to our home for 4 days.

http://gallery.greencountrymotorsports.com/albums/album15/aab.sized.jpg

The following day we decide to head out after washing our cars and the Tahoe support vehicle. We meet up with the Alleghany region PCA who's having a DE event. There are a lot of Porsches there - duh! In addition the P-cars, I see a BMW Z8 and an E36 M3 Lightweight. Cool. This particular region prides itself in being very conservative with a low wipeout-and-crash-and-ruin-your-historically-significant-Porsche rate. They said the region gets one crash a year. Well, we saw that one a year. A beautiful white 911 Turbo became intimate with tire barrier. One side looked good but when I saw the "vultures" congregate around it in the pits, I knew something was up. I'll try and post some more pics later. Sure nuff, the opposite side told a twisted and crumpled story of grass stains and tire carnage. The driver was cool but a little shakey and nervous. The word in the pits was "that's taking 10mph off my cornering speeds." Not one to flippantly condemn a wuss driver, I shut my mouth and decide maybe 2-5mph reduction would be the right number. Nah! ;)
http://gallery.greencountrymotorsports.com/albums/album15/aad.sized.jpg
Monday comes and Grubb and I are head over heels in love with the track. Elevation changes, hills, the famed "Carousel" and "Keyhole," a long straight, and blind corners made the day feel like Christmas morning. Grubb is in the fast group and I'm in the medium group. There's a reason why he's in the fast group - he was 5-6 seconds off of best time - in a Miata! Anyway, the first few session are spent learning the track and getting familar with it's excentricities. There are a lot of them. In a few places the road actually changes from flat to off-camber to just the opposite - all in one sweeping semi-chicane turn. In total, we got mucho seat time. And we got to see a lot of cool cars and meet a bunch of cool people. My first instructor, Franz, was a SCCA national champion in 2000 and 2001 and got me doing the correct line. My second instructor was the famed "GhettoRacer" in Honda circles. Frank did 62 track events last year and has already done 20 as of last week. Epitome of track whore. Frank helped me a lot with the line and settling down my twitchy steering and throttle inputs. Good guy to drive with that Frank. I think the best thing I did the whole day was not scare any of the instructors. At least that's what they said.
http://gallery.greencountrymotorsports.com/albums/album15/aae.sized.jpg
The second day saw Frank wanting to drive my car for the second time. It was a blast. As most good drivers are, he was instantly fast and comfortable in the car. I was up next with Frank in the car and he commented that I was tons better than yesterday. After viewing the video in Tulsa, I'm about a .5 second ahead of his time, 1:49.8 vs. 1:50.3 in my own car! Damn GhettoRacer. :P I don't know whether to be happy or be pissed. ;) Haha, anyway, he was a ton of help and his instruction was very appreciated. After about 3 sessions, my car developed some serious brake shudder. Now this is a bad thing when trying to haul your car down from 137mph. 8O Yikes. I decided to pack it up before noon and save my piss-and-vinegar and car for another day. My last session included, probably, scaring the bejeebies out of Grubb and myself. The session before, I got totally flustered with my instructor and still had that on my mind. :(
http://gallery.greencountrymotorsports.com/albums/album15/aac.sized.jpg
The drive back was fun. I got a ticket, a warning, in Indiania b/c the trailer hitch install people jacked up twice on the installation. Grubb was missing a whole suspension piece - a VITAL suspendo bolt that connects the lower part of the rotor to the control arm. So instead of the 44 Grubb has to pee stops we had 2 or 3 trying to fix it stops. Man, was Shawnie sleepy so these stops actually helped break up the drive.

http://gallery.greencountrymotorsports.com/albums/album15/aaa.sized.jpg

Overall, this was a great trip. The weather couldn't have been better. Mid-Ohio is definitely a track I want to go back to (I know I've got another 2 seconds improvement there) but with a driving partner and, max, 1 or 2 instructors to learn from instead of the four I had.

You guys in Ohio are very fortunate to have such an awesome track nearby. Dogs. ;)

[MadMax]

I had my NSX at Mid-Ohio for the Porsche Club Track Event. Posted a 1:43.49 lap time.

[Ponyboy]

Wow, that's a great lap time. Is your NSX still NA?

[MadMax]

It is a 1991. It has headers, test pipes, exhaust, intake, chip, Koni coilovers, 18" Forgelines with Hoosiers, Alcon brakes. I wasn't quite comfortable with the brakes this weekend. Having trouble with the Coleman rotors.

[MadMax]

By the way, those are great pictures from the track!

[GhettoRacer]

sub 1:45's with keyhole is moving!! nice.

[Ponyboy]

Thanks. I have some 35mm shots but I'll have to scan them sometime. 1:43's is fast. It's nice to have something to shoot for next time.

Wish I would have brought an extra set of rotors and had a few more days there. I found I lost the most time in the back section of the track I call "the Rollercoaster," turns 5-11. But I was pleasantly surprised with the amount of grip I had w/ the Ecsta R's.

Are the Koni's the Comptech suspendo?

[GhettoRacer]

shawn, your brakes weren't the most confidence inspiring... with the brake shaking. fix the rotors. for pads, you can try Andie/Cobalt's new race compound. that should be a little better than the Carbotech's, or move up to the XP's. i like the XP's, i just don't like the carbotech rivets (making last 1 mm of pads not usable).

your car is pretty fast on the back straight tho... if the speedo is correct. we almost hit 140 mph indicated. last year in a 996 GT2 I got up to 150 mph in the same stretch. did about 1:43's in heavy traffic, car was on Hoosier's and was a sub 1:40 car easily. car was bone stock except on Hoosier's... it was really surprisingly easy to drive.

i think your car is at least a 1:45 car as it is. the rear end was very grippy with the 285's...

[Ponyboy]

Ha! You're telling me. I was more than a little nervous on that back straight. Good news is that I got the AeroRotors turned today. Mechanic says the car stops fine. I was using the Ferodo DS3000's with the Cobalt GTR Spec. C pads in back per Andie's recommendation.

I would love to get into the 1:45's. I'm pretty confident that I can do 47's. I'm kinda itching to go back there.

[GhettoRacer]

yah there's plenty left man. we easily left a second or 2 in T1. 1 second braking for T1. a second in keyhole. and plenty in the technical session (gotta be willing to push the limits eventually :-) the rear of your nsx was very stable and the balance was impressive.

[Ponyboy]

You're crazy Frankula! We were taking T1 at 85, maybe there's another 1 or 2mph but a full second, yikes. And we were accelerating out of it to 100mph. A sec. in keyhole for sure, plus a sec. or more under braking on the back straight, and yes more than a few in the technical section.

I'll get that 1:45 yet. :)

[GhettoRacer]

lets look at it this way. if we weren't either hard on the gas, or hard on the brakes, there's peed left there... in theory. hahah.... T1 is FAST. pretty fun.

did you read what I wrote about driving Kyle's ITR on HT? a driver mistake...

I excuted (not intentional) my personal longest drift recently... driving kyle smith's ITR at mid-ohio on monday. it was a good 6-7 seconds at least. it was also fairly high speed... about 80 mph on entry. for those of you that know mid-ohio... the car was side ways from the entry of T1 (just before the bridge), pass the apex berm, and i didn't fully gather it up until about 20 feet from the exit berm. the car wasn't tank slapping or anything, it was just in a long steady state drift. pretty cool now that i thought about it. wish we had it on camera... we played with tire pressured that morning and it was just a tad more tail happy than optimal.
here's an idea on the length/duration of the drift.

http://www.g-speed.com/eg2/tq-midohio-0802/images/IMG_1395.jpg

turn in...

http://www.g-speed.com/eg2/tq-midohio-0802/images/IMG_1396.jpg

apex is at the end of the berm...

[CiaoBoy]

Originally posted by GhettoRacer
lets look at it this way. if we weren't either hard on the gas, or hard on the brakes, there's peed left there... in theory.

In theory, if you are going around a constant radius turn, you'd only be lightly pressing on the gas pedal in order to maintain a constant speed. :)

-CiaoBoy

[Ponyboy]

Hah, but you don't want to be at a constant speed, ideally you want to be accelerating out of the turn. Frankula could do it.

Frankula, gimme that link on HT.

[CiaoBoy]

Originally posted by Ponyboy
Hah, but you don't want to be at a constant speed, ideally you want to be accelerating out of the turn. Frankula could do it.


If you're accelerating out of the turn, that means you're no longer on a constant radius. You're on an increasing radius, and that's why you can add gas. A skidpad would be a constant radius turn that goes on forever.

But you're right, I'm sure Frank could pull it off nonetheless! :)

-CiaoBoy

[RacerX-21]

Originally posted by MadMax
It is a 1991. It has headers, test pipes, exhaust, intake, chip, Koni coilovers, 18" Forgelines with Hoosiers, Alcon brakes. I wasn't quite comfortable with the brakes this weekend. Having trouble with the Coleman rotors.

It sounds like you had pad material transfer on your rotors. This has happened to me… a violent shudder under braking, that feels like something more major (Like a wheel bearing). It also will continually get worse. You can’t feel the material on the rotor, so I was skeptical about the same advise. I pulled the rotors and took a straight edge razor to see if it would help me feel something on the rotor. I could now feel an island on the surface, I took 200 grit sand paper to the surface in a non-directional rotation (As suggested)… and sure enough my shudder went away. Turning the rotors will also solve the problem, but obviously costs more and shortens the life of the rotor. This same expert suggested that a serious racer would scuff the rotors every time out. He also explained the transfer is usually due to poor pad or rotor break-in. I mentioned this has happened to me, and it was also with panther plus. I have XP’s in the rear (Because they were out of panthers), but have not yet put XP’s on the front. I’m not bashing Carbotech they are the best pads I’ve tried.

Rob

[maomaonsx]

Shawn, any rubbing at the front with those big wheels and tires?

[Ponyboy]

While turning or under heavy braking?

[NSXGirl4j]

RACERX-21,

When this braking problem originally started, I thought the exact same thing the you stated above. I have tried new pads, and a brand new set of rotors. Same thing. Ended up putting drive bobbins in, to make a floating rotor, which helped.

A friend of mine races a 350Z for a team out of Cincinnati, and he had one of his guys stop over and take a look. He said that he thought that some of the problem was coming from the Coleman rotor. He said that they expand a lot more when heated than say an Alcon or Brembo rotor. So the tolerance that needs to be there to let it float has to be much greater than what the car currently has. He suggested going with an Alcon rotor, and he thought that the problem will go away.

I have had problems with the Coleman rotors from day one. The first set that I had ordered were warped upon arrival, severely.

Also, as far as poor pad and rotor break-in goes, I know that it does not get done properly on my car. I share the car with another person on track days. I am usually very good about the break-in of anything, this other person, no way. So that is probably part of it also.

I would say that there probably is some pad transfer, though. I appreciate your taking the time to help out. I will let you know how it does with the Alcon rotors. I will have it at Memphis Motorsports Park next weekend.


Thanks,
Angie

[RacerX-21]

Angie,

To help you feel you made the right decision- Realtime Racing swears by the Alcon rotor, they have a Brembo system and have tried many rotors. Unfortunately the Alcon rotors in the size I use are around $800 each. The difference is in raw material and the treating process, they are actually cryo frozen. A lower cost alternative with no shortcuts in quality is a company called “The Brake Man”. He does two separate treating processes, including the cryo freezing. They are still lower cost, because the company is still new. This guy Warren is supposed to be arguably the worlds expert on performance brakes. www.thebrakeman.com

[maomaonsx]

Originally posted by Ponyboy
While turning or under heavy braking?

Under any circumstances? Are there any outside fender edge rubbing in anu situations?

[Ponyboy]

None under turning. But that's after I whacked the crap out of the inner fender well - really wasn't that bad. I think I had some under heavy braking but I can't find evidence of it anywhere - except some VERY small rubber spots on the tabs that held the fender liner in place. Other than that...nothing. ;)

[BlueGTS]

To those that used Coleman Rotors, what type were you using, 1 piece or with an alum hat, how many vanes, directional or not, and were they the heavy duty ones ? I was using Alcon rotors and the quality of the metallurgy was great and they would last 3 times longer than factory rotors even with the heat cracks. Sometimes during Tech inspection, they would point out the cracks and I would tell them that these rotors still have some heat cycles in them. I just couldn't justify the $800 price tag each so I looked for a less expensive replacement. I have used the Colemans for 2 track sessions and so far so good. If they last me 5 or more track sessions then that would be great. I use PFC 01 pads and this is on a Viper GTS.

[NSXGirl4j]

BlueGTS,

The Coleman rotors that we are using are with an aluminum hat. I am not positive on how many vanes, I will have to count, and they are directional. I know that the gentlemen from the race team said that the rotor that we are using has about half of the number of vanes than what they typically use, which I know would help with the expansion under heat. We have the PFC 83 compound, but we have also tryed various compounds to try to fix the problem. The less aggresive that we go, the better they seem to be. I have heard good and bad things about the Coleman rotor. A friend of ours with a 944 Turbo race car had the same problem that we had, and ended up just going with the Porsche rotor.

I was going to ask you if you would be at Viper Days this weekend at Mid-Ohio, but probably not since you live in California. We are going to go over to check it out. My boyfriend's brother has a GTS also.

Thanks for the help.
Angie

[BlueGTS]

Hi Angie, I am not sure where you got your alcon rotors but if you want to try something other than coleman, I know that Baer Racing has been using DBA rotors (from Australia) on their Alcon brake systems. I don't know how they compare because I have not used them. I do know they are not $800.

I run Viper Days but don't go farther than their California venues. They have a race and will probably have the comp coupes there. That would be nice to see. By the way, I used to own a 92 Black NSX and loved that car but I eventually thought it was too soft and Honda should've made it like the Japanese Type R. Still curious as to what the next gen NSX will be like and hope it is a 360 or 911GT3 beater as I am still an NSX fan.

[NSXGirl4j]

BlueGTS,

We spoke with the gentleman at the shop where we were going to get the Alcon rotors, and he suggested maybe trying a different compound pad, the PFC01 pad that you are using. He wanted us to try that first before we spent the money on the new rotors. I really hope that it fixes the problem. I don't want to go to another driving event with this problem.

Thanks again for all of the help with this situation, it is much appreciated.

Angie

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Ponyboy
I'm kinda itching to go back there.

Doing anything on Memorial Day weekend?

http://nohiobmwcca.org/

[Ponyboy]

Dude, I seriously dislike you. :p

All I can say is maybe next year - I'm committed for the rest of this year.

[GhettoRacer]

cool. thanks to shawn for passing me the video. now you guys can see how bad GR drives. not perfect, but fairly consistant. :D

about 1:50.x for a few laps. going about 8.5/10th. on some forums there's a perception that i "slide" people's car around. most of the cars I've ever driven is about same pace as this... fairly quick, but very conservatice on corner entry.

http://www.g-speed.com/eg2/tq-midohio-0403/gr-in-shawn-nsx-mid-ohio.mov

[nsxtasy]

I am in the process of shaking out (no pun intended) brake shudder problems on both my cars.

I have been told that proper bedding of the brakes is key, to transfer a uniform layer of material onto the rotors. I have also been told that proper bedding includes getting the brakes uniformly heated (on the street) with a series of stops of increasing severity, and then letting them cool overnight. There are also some good tips in nsxbuilder's post in this topic (http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16734).

I had had problems with shudder on some brake pads (including stock) early on. More recently I have not encountered shudder on the NSX. On my ITR, I have encountered shudder, even with two-piece Stoptech rotors. I suspect the pads I am using on that car (Endless CC-X) may be worse for leaving those deposits on the rotors, and am considering alternatives.

[CiaoBoy]

Originally posted by nsxtasy
I have been told that proper bedding of the brakes is key, to transfer a uniform layer of material onto the rotors. I have also been told that proper bedding includes getting the brakes uniformly heated (on the street) with a series of stops of increasing severity, and then letting them cool overnight. There are also some good tips in nsxbuilder's post in this topic (http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16734).

Something I never understood was why the bedding procedure is like that. It conflicts with the manufacturer's recommendations when you buy a new car and they suggest that you go easy on the brakes for the initial break-in period. If we're supposed to bed-in our brakes with a series of stops of increasing severity, don't you think the manufacturer would recommend that in the break-in period? I've always been confused by this.

My guess is that bedding in the brakes (inducing green fade with a series of stops) is a short and quick alternative break-in procedure. It's used if you just put on new brakes and have to go to the track tomorrow, but don't have sufficient time to break-in the brakes in the usual way that the manufacturer suggested.

Can someone shed some light on this?

-CiaoBoy

[nsxtasy]

The answer is, bedding in the brakes for street use - which is what the car manufacturer recommends - has a totally different purpose from doing so for track use.

For street use, the purpose is to get the pad surface and the rotor surface mated. This takes a while with normal street procedures - hence the advice to go easy for a few hundred miles, with no special procedure otherwise required.

For track use, the purpose is not only to get the surfaces mated, but also (a) to get the pads heated up enough to outgas so that they won't fade when heated ("green pad syndrome") and (b) to create a uniform deposit of pad material on the surface of the rotor. To achieve these objectives, the brakes must become very hot and then have a chance to cool down. Thus the need for a series of stops of increasing severity.

Most cars that never go to the track never get the brakes hot enough to sufficiently outgas the pads or deposit pad material on the rotors.

[Andrie Hartanto]

Frank.

you cause quite a buzz at rennlist forum.

http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=001235