View Full Version : New NSX Confirmed!
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Honda confirms it: Acura NSX sports car will be replaced
By YUZO YAMAGUCHI | Automotive News
The HSC show car is "a realistic proposal" for the next-generation NSX, says Honda President Takeo Fukui.
TOKYO - The 13-year-old Acura NSX sports car will be replaced soon by a car much like the HSC concept coupe shown at the Tokyo Motor Show, Honda President Takeo Fukui disclosed last week.
"I want to bring it out soon," Fukui said in an interview for the annual Automotive News Talk from the Top series. "Everybody is waiting for it. It won't be in a year, though."
Fukui called the two-seat HSC concept "a realistic proposal" and said the production NSX would not change much from the show car. The HSC concept, which had a 300-hp V-6 under the hood, is shorter, wider and lower than the current NSX.
"I like the overall proportion of it," Fukui said. "Its compactness is attractive."
The NSX, which has a small but passionate following among performance enthusiasts, has not been fully remodeled since it debuted in 1990. Reflecting its age, worldwide sales last year totaled only 364, with the U.S. market accounting for 233.
The car's worldwide sales peaked at more than 4,500 in 1991.
"This is not a volume car, so it has be aimed at the global market," Fukui said.
The replacement for the nearly $90,000 vehicle is part of Honda's move to shore up the Acura brand. The automaker also will update the Acura RL, due out next fall, by dropping front-wheel drive.
Wheelman
11-03-2003, 12:28
Hopefully, they will put a stronger motor in there..instead of the 300hp V6..;)
Agreed.
Hopefully they'll be able to get close to 400.
And if the HSC is truly "compact" then that might bode well for a significant weight reduction.
-Jim
NetViper
11-03-2003, 12:54
Crap Jimbo... you beat me to the post. Didn't see yours in there... oh well..
My thoughts are again.. a 300HP V6 is PATHETIC. Infact, they should have brought out a 300HP V6 back in 1991.
If you look at the story at the top it is the new Pontiac GTO. A 30K sports sedan with a 350HP V8. If a $30,000 car can have a 350HP v8, why can't a $90K exotic have something more than a 300HP V6. And I still think a hybrid is a complete waste of weight.
I guess we will see.
300 hp? :rolleyes:
From what Fukui says, "the production NSX would not change much from the show car," I guess we're stuck with 300 hp.
If so, time to shop for another brand.
I really do expect more than 300hp. I think the 300hp engine in the HSC was just a placeholder. Heck that's what the current engine puts out.
You're right about the GTO. The new C6 Vette will have more than 400hp and that's the standard engine (which weighs about the same as the current NSX V6, btw). The new Z06 will have 500+ hp. Not bad for a pushrod engine that's the same weight as the 3.2L V6 in the NSX.
But I really do think Honda will up the ante for the next NSX. If they can chop 300 lbs and get close to 400hp...then all should be OK.
From what Fukui says, "the production NSX would not change much from the show car,"
I think Fukui was talking about the styling and not the engine.
NetViper
11-03-2003, 13:13
It would be really sad to come out with a car that is just a complete flop simply because it doesn't have any HP.
The HSC is a truly gorgeous car, but giving it 300HP is just killing it before it even makes production.
Surely Honda can see that? Can't they? If not, someone please tell them! The NSX is a total sales flop and why? Is it because it is a HONDA? I don't think so. If you ask any car guy what they think about the NSX.. what do they say? "Its a nice car, but it needs more power". Everyone in the industry thinks it is a "nice car, but needs more power".
I don't think ANYONE who was considering buying a ferrari or porsche would say ... hmm.. I will take on of those new HSC's instead and get smoked by all my competition on the track and strip.
I will be happy-- for now -- if it has 400HP, but even 400 is going to look weak compared to the next gen ferrari and the current Gallardo. If the stradale already has 425HP, I can imagine the next version of the 360 will have at least 450HP. Jimbo already pointed out the next vette will have a 400HP engine in a 40K car...
If anyone at honda reads this site, PLEASE STOP THE MADNESS and give the car an engine it deserves....
Originally posted by NetViper
If you ask any car guy what they think about the NSX.. what do they say? "Its a nice car, but it needs more power".This has been true of the results of the surveys that American Honda has done of NSX owners. I can assure you that all the executives at American Honda are familiar with this perception. Have they passed it along to their counterparts in Japan? Highly likely. Will the NSX replacement have significantly more horsepower? We'll see, but don't bet against it.
NetViper
11-03-2003, 13:39
Originally posted by nsxtasy
This has been true of the results of the surveys that American Honda has done of NSX owners. I can assure you that all the executives at American Honda are familiar with this perception. Have they passed it along to their counterparts in Japan? Highly likely. Will the NSX replacement have significantly more horsepower? We'll see, but don't bet against it.
Isn't the point of a concept car to gauge interest in making a production car? Wouldn't you want to show off what you can do? Why only put a 300HP engine in it. If anything, that hurts the image of the concept. I guess I am confused by that. Why not put a 500HP v8 in there if for no other reason than the increase public interest in the car?
brucewinter
11-03-2003, 13:42
http://business-times.asia1.com.sg/story/0,4567,98477,00.html?
Tom Larkins
11-03-2003, 13:49
Originally posted by nsxtasy
I can assure you that all the executives at American Honda are familiar with this perception. Have they passed it along to their counterparts in Japan? Highly likely. Will the NSX replacement have significantly more horsepower? We'll see, but don't bet against it.
I hope your right b/c in its current HP state I'm not buying!
NetViper
11-03-2003, 13:50
Originally posted by brucewinter
http://business-times.asia1.com.sg/story/0,4567,98477,00.html?
Lightweight materials will be a prerequisite for a good power-to-weight ratio. Also, the typical Honda characteristic of good handling requires a low kerb weight. This implies that a relatively small V6 engine, not more than 3.5 litres, is likely. The power plant of about 350 hp stays in its mid-ship position but will be enhanced by a light, compact electric motor to lower emissions and fuel consumption.
As there is little space left over in the engine compartment, the IMA or integrated motor assist with about 50 hp will be located up front. It will drive the front wheels, thus making the next 400 hp NSX an all-wheel-drive car with semi-automatic paddle shift transmission.
The HSC's use of cameras for rearward vision will probably be replaced by simpler door mirrors.
The huge Brembo brakes also won't make it to production and the tyres will be smaller and the car should have better ground clearance. Overall, the next model will be wider and higher.
NetViper
11-03-2003, 13:51
Why would the production car not have the brembos?? Makes no sense...
And how can you call it AWD if the electric motor powers the front wheels.... after two laps of a track.. it will only be RWD as the battery will be dead.
I guess I really just don't understand honda anymore..
If the NSX replacement has IMA/Hybrid technology then it won't be a NSX.
There's NO way I'd consider a hybrid NSX.
:mad:
There's nothing wrong with sticking with V6 provided that it has the power needed. I'd much rather see Honda go the turbo or supercharged V6 route.
Keep the hybrids for the people movers, econoboxes and the SUVs.
AGENT948
11-03-2003, 14:00
So, what do you guys think the consequence of this will be to current owners as far as values and potential re-sale?
Tony Montoya
11-03-2003, 14:00
If you are not happy with 290hp why do you own an NSX? WHy are you obsessed with HP?
stop acting like crybabies
/Stef
flaminio
11-03-2003, 14:34
I don't think we can make any judgments on the car until it is in production. Everything beyond the basic shape of the car is just speculation at this point (some more informed than others). When the car hits the street, when the magazines get ahold of it, and when I can take it for a test drive -- then I'll decide.
Originally posted by AGENT948
So, what do you guys think the consequence of this will be to current owners as far as values and potential re-sale?For the past few years, the value of older well-maintained NSXs has been very stable, typically selling in the low thirties. New NSXs depreciate fairly quickly, often losing $20K in value during their first 3-4 years (sometimes more, depending on how good a deal the original owner got when buying the car). Assuming the new car sells in roughly the same price range as the old one, I don't think the pricing is going to change all that drastically for anything other than the very newest current-gen cars.
NetViper
11-03-2003, 16:17
I have one big question.....
If I-VTEC is so great.... why isn't the HSC using a V6 with I-VTEC? Doesn't BMW's Double Vanos use similar tech on the M3 I6?
Thus far isn't only the TSX and RSX using it? I thought it was the next gen. engine from honda?
Did I miss something?
http://asia.vtec.net/article/ivtec/
I don't understand, he (Mr. Fukui) wants to release the NSX
replacement soon, but not within a year. Seems like it was only months between the prototype photos of the TL to the showroom
(and it was remarkably true to the prototype). If the HSC was released tomorrow with 300 hp and a lower price it would sell.
If it isn't released for 2 more years and at the same or higher price than the present NSX it won't sell unless it has a lot more horsepower. Stop teasing us and build it!
Originally posted by NetViper
If anyone at honda reads this site, PLEASE STOP THE MADNESS and give the car an engine it deserves.... I would guess that the NSX development team is (and has been) aware of the relevant posts about the next generation NSX (X2) on NSXPrime. Especially the discussions concerning the HSC horsepower.
Remember Karnack?... nsx1 predicts - 396hp :cool:
For those that put a deposit for the '05 HSC, I think you've been had by the dealer. Looks like it won't debut until '06 based on the article.....
Midnight_Raven
11-03-2003, 18:19
I'm not totaly understanding this ,they are saying that they are going to replace the NSX or just make a second generation NSX?
Originally posted by Midnight_Raven
I'm not totaly understanding this ,they are saying that they are going to replace the NSX or just make a second generation NSX? The only difference between those two concepts is the name, and they did not say anything definitive about whether the new car will, or won't, continue with the NSX moniker.
comquat1
11-03-2003, 19:07
Doesn't anyone here think that Honda simply put the current v-6 in the HSC so that they don't tip their hand to the competition? why give Mazda, Nissan, or Toyota a head start?
My guess is that they're gonna do a 3.5 liter v-6 putting out 350-400hp. Wasn't the 3.0 v-6 back in 1991 waaaay ahead hp-wise from what their current line up had (if any of those cars had the 3.0)? Does anyone know if that's true? I'm looking at the 3.2 in the new tl doing 270, so wouldn't it make sense to put in the 3.5 in the nsx and kick it in the high 300's? just my 2 cents....
Originally posted by nsxtasy
The only difference between those two concepts is the name, and they did not say anything definitive about whether the new car will, or won't, continue with the NSX moniker.
it will probably not. You heard it here first...
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=206646#post206646
For those who still doubt my info, at 10:45am today I posted about the imminent Press Release (earlier than anyone else on this tread):
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=213997#post213997
Originally posted by dnyhof
Doesn't anyone here think that Honda simply put the current v-6 in the HSC so that they don't tip their hand to the competition?It's quite possible. It's equally possible that they're still working on drivetrain development, and it's not ready yet.
Originally posted by dnyhof
Wasn't the 3.0 v-6 back in 1991 waaaay ahead hp-wise from what their current line up had (if any of those cars had the 3.0)? Does anyone know if that's true?At the time that the 270 hp NSX went on sale in 1990, the next highest horsepower model in the Acura lineup (aside from the 252-hp automatic NSX) was the 200 hp Legend Coupe.
The 270 hp of the NSX was also considerably higher than most other competing models.
Most likely the HSC will share the same V6 with the new RL and MDX.
Or at least the same basic block. I would expect it to have a number of go-fast parts (i.e. titanium rods, more radical cams, freer flowing intake and exhaust, different heads, etc).
A nod to Yogi Berra:D
Only 300hp? If they don't make this car then I won't buy it!
Originally posted by Taj
Most likely the HSC will share the same V6 with the new RL and MDX.
Not even close. Please remember that the VTEC technology was introduced in a production car thanks to the NSX. Every new gizmo and/or technology that's in Honda's R&D will be in this next Supercar. Having it share an engine with another model just doen't make sense. Same thing with the chassis. Expect the latest in Light Alloy and CB materials.
NSXTASY_MD
11-03-2003, 22:02
Originally posted by Jimbo
The new C6 Vette will have more than 400hp and that's the standard engine (which weighs about the same as the current NSX V6, btw). The new Z06 will have 500+ hp. Not bad for a pushrod engine that's the same weight as the 3.2L V6 in the NSX.
But I really do think Honda will up the ante for the next NSX. If they can chop 300 lbs and get close to 400hp...then all should be OK.
You're certainly right in bringing up that point Jimbo! (I'm surprised "Bulldozer" didn't jump on this one, and contrary to what he would assume my attitude is towards pushrods, that motor will be AWESOME...btw, "yo momma"-Bulldozer:) LOL) But that new pushrod that GM is going to put out is certainly going to ROCK the automotive world with its new heads/valvetrain design. We're talking about close to 500HP out of an N/A PRODUCTION, smallblock V-8 (not really what I think of a "smallblock" with all its innovations but lets just call it that) in the next ZO6's. We're talking about a ~$50K, 500HP, lightweight, mass-production sportscar here ladies and gentleman:eek::eek: (talk about GM raising the ante)
It's so unbelievable to think that just 10 years ago I was super happy with the 93' Corvette LT-1 I owned and modded that made JUST over 400BHP with a 6psi Carroll blower and borla exhuast system*** To think the C6ZO6 will start making nearly 100 MORE HP than the blown LT-1 I had out at roughly the same displacement in **N/A** and factory-stock form...is amazing. A lot of people misjudge but most modern pushrod motors are significantly lighter than their modular, more complex, quad cam counterparts* In short...if they do it for the C6Z06...you can be sure it'll be a very light-weight 500HP motor. Giving that car a HUGE advantage over its competition...powerplant-wise.
As for the next NSX : Based on the comments Mr. Fukui stated (and as I mentioned three times before in different posts) you can BE SURE it will recieve a ***100-per-liter*** minimum!!
.....With an expected "$90,000" price tag and Honda engineering lastest achievements at hand 100/per/liter would be a BASELINE. Hence, an all new 3.5 V6 can be expected to produce AT LEAST 350HP. (which wouldn't be too bad @ 3000lbs even) My fearless prediction would be just over 105HP per liter for the new Honda flagship*(Or roughly close to 370HP...at an expected curb weight of "around" 3000lbs even) Any lighter curb weight with the amenities they'll equipped the Acura with and the production costs would drive the MSRP even higher than 90K.(lighter=more $$$) Less than 100HP per liter (or anywhere near 300BHP) would be a marketing FLOP for a $90,000 sportscar...we know that, a 16 year-old knows that, my girlfriend (who still thinks my NSX is a C5 corvette knows that)lol, and Honda's multi-billion dollar international marketing department that has been following all the automotive trends for the last 30+ years certainly knows that...;)
ChopsJazz
11-03-2003, 22:37
Wow, I go away for the weekend and Honda announces the new NSX! I'll be staying home for the year in that case.
My wishes for the new one? Make it do to the competition what the last one did. To wit: "...advance the state of the art and radically alter the the commonly accepted perceptions of exotic, limited production sports cars."
Not even close. Please remember that the VTEC technology was introduced in a production car thanks to the NSX.
Yes, but the original NSX used the basic V6 block design from the Legend. Honda will NOT develop a completely brand new engine just for the next gen NSX. It will share as many components as possible with a production V6.
Bet the house on that.
-Jim
Not that it would ever happen...and I posted this idea before...
But it would be kind of neat seeing how GM and Honda have a engine-sharing deal in place...
If Honda could shoehorn the next generation Z06 500+ hp alum small block into the next generation NSX.
That would be kind of neat. :D
-Jim
Mr Payne
11-03-2003, 23:08
Even with 400hp, will that be enough to keep it competitive with the current/upcoming plethora of performance cars? The NSX hallmark has always been better handling abilities, but in todays age will that even be enough to differentiate itself(ie: upcoming cars will handle so well)?
Probably not for the critics.
We'll probably never see a day like back in 1991 where there was such a realignment of the sports car world when the NSX came out.
There are so many good cars today and the competition is very fierce.
Originally posted by Jimbo
If Honda could shoehorn the next generation Z06 500+ hp alum small block into the next generation NSX. The HP would be cool, but can you imagine an NSX with a 6,500 RPM redline? :eek:
Zanardi 50
11-03-2003, 23:43
Originally posted by nsxtasy
The only difference between those two concepts is the name, and they did not say anything definitive about whether the new car will, or won't, continue with the NSX moniker.
I seriously hope Honda retire the NSX moniker when the new car comes out. How many exotic sports car that you know of (besides Viper - if you consider it an exotic) recycles the same moniker after each successive generations? Lambo don't. Ferrari don't. And Honda shouldn't either with the NSX. To do so makes it no better than the mass-produced Corvette! Name it Futuristic Sportscar eXperimental (i.e. FSX) or whatever, that's fine with me, but please Honda, no more NSX!
Zanardi 50
11-03-2003, 23:49
Originally posted by Jimbo
Probably not for the critics.
We'll probably never see a day like back in 1991 where there was such a realignment of the sports car world when the NSX came out.
There are so many good cars today and the competition is very fierce.
Good point Jimbo. Another reason why the next Honda exotic sports car shouldn't carry the NSX moniker.
Zanardi 50
11-04-2003, 00:03
Originally posted by Jimbo
Yes, but the original NSX used the basic V6 block design from the Legend. Honda will NOT develop a completely brand new engine just for the next gen NSX. It will share as many components as possible with a production V6.
Bet the house on that.
-Jim
I've heard from other sources that Honda will, some time in the near future, produce full size pick-ups to compete against the Ford F150. If they ever do, they will most likely go the V-8 route. If such is true, The next Honda exotic sports car may even share the same V-8 block and most of the components with the Stump-Pullers.... :p
I seriously hope Honda retire the NSX moniker when the new car comes out.
If they use hybrid technology I would agree.
But if it's a worthy upgrade then it's important to keep the name.
One thing Honda has been criticized about is their lack of history. There's only one way to build a long history....and that's to keep a marque's name alive.
As long as the new car is in the same spirit and ups the ante then NSX it is!
Hybrid Notes:
I'm not convinced that the hybrid would be a complete waste, and these are my reasons:
- Most of the IMA weight today is batteries. It's obvious that a high performance car would be capacitor based for weight and duty cycle/charge time issues. We all know how much heat we put into our brakes coming into a turn- if some % of that could be dumped into an ultracap (ala the DualNote) then that's good IMHO.
- Even if the cap is discharged, the AWD system would work. The power would come from the gasoline engine as a parasitic load and sent to the front. I'd argue that for a performance car (ie a large rear power bias) that the two moderate sized motors up front instead of two more difs, a drive shaft, a big tunnel, etc. would in fact be lighter.
- Interesting active handling schemes could be developed that actually added power to the decoupled front wheels... instead of just pitching the car around with individual brake application (yaw control).
- You lose the starter motor and alternator.
Just some random thoughts. I still think they wont do it, but I think it will eventually be done by someone- hybrid power will have a place in performance cars.
-Ryan
I've heard from other sources that Honda will, some time in the near future, produce full size pick-ups to compete against the Ford F150.
Funny, I've heard just the opposite.
http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_honda_build_sut/index.htm
Small trucks, yes. But don't expect Honda to compete with full-size pickups anytime soon.
Originally posted by Jimbo
Yes, but the original NSX used the basic V6 block design from the Legend. Honda will NOT develop a completely brand new engine just for the next gen NSX. It will share as many components as possible with a production V6.
Bet the house on that.
-Jim
What about the F20C? That was purpose built.
I'm not convinced that the hybrid would be a complete waste, and these are my reasons: - Most of the IMA weight today is batteries. It's obvious that a high performance car would be capacitor based for weight and duty cycle/charge time issues. We all know how much heat we put into our brakes coming into a turn- if some % of that could be dumped into an ultracap (ala the DualNote) then that's good IMHO.
Ryan,
It's not obvious to me.
I don't know of any present or prototyped working hybrid system that can channel any appreciable percentage of wasted braking energy back into the storage system.
Chrysler tried it some years ago, btw. See...
http://www.allpar.com/model/patriot.html
The problem is that with any current hybrid technology in use today there's no way to recapture braking energy in sufficient amounts to make up the difference.
In the end, if you drive a hybrid car aggressively (i.e. like on a racetrack) you'll quickly deplete the batteries. And then you're lugging the dead weight of the batteries, motor and controls.
Of course, Honda might come up with a dilithium crystal approach that rewrites the laws of physics....
-Jim
What about the F20C? That was purpose built.
Not really.
It shared major dimensions with the Prelude Si engine. And that means they could share expensive tooling setups.
Also...
They make a lot more S2000s than they do NSXs. ;)
Zanardi 50
11-04-2003, 00:34
Originally posted by Jimbo
Not really.
It shared major dimensions with the Prelude Si engine. And that means they could share expensive tooling setups.
Also...
They make a lot more S2000s than they do NSXs. ;)
Darn it Jimbo, you beat me to it! Gotta.....type........faster...... :D
Originally posted by Jimbo
I don't know of any present or prototyped working hybrid system that can channel any appreciable percentage of wasted braking energy back into the storage system.
I could be wrong, but I remember hearing that the new Toyota Prius actually gets better gas mileage in stop & go traffic as opposed to highway driving, mainly because of regenerative braking.
I'm not sure whether or not that would constitute what you mean be an appreciable percentage of wasted breaking energy... and even if it did, an econo-box like the Prius is a far cry from an exotic sportscar. But still, it would be cool if Honda had some kind of super-secret high efficiency regenerative breaking system that they were waiting to unveil with the new NSX/HSC.
Not very likely, but you have to admit that it would definitely catch the whole industry off guard.
It would catch the industry off guard. Simply because it would be a major technological advance that didn't come with any advance rumblings.
The Prius and the Honda hybrids do get better mileage in stop-go driving. But take either one of these cars to a track (not the dragstrip) and run a few laps. A few reviewers have done this and that's where the problem can be found.
Oddly enough a hybrid car might be a good choice for a 1/4 miler or for occasional "street racing" from a red light. But when it comes to a roadcourse they stink.
Wow just imagine parking an NSX and HSC side by side is like parking 355 next to 360.:D
They got their Ferraris and we got our Hondas
Wow just imagine parking an NSX and HSC side by side is like parking 355 next to 360
That would be an awesome sight indeed. The 355 is classic and beautiful as is the current Nsx. The 360 is modern supermodel looking as is the Hsc. Its like Heidi Klum next to Laetitia Casta or something like that.
Originally posted by Jimbo
Ryan,
...
In the end, if you drive a hybrid car aggressively (i.e. like on a racetrack) you'll quickly deplete the batteries. And then you're lugging the dead weight of the batteries, motor and controls.
-Jim
I'm talking about something capacitor based instead of batteries. You'd be storing charge instead of electrochemical energy. This is more suitable to quick uptake of braking energy.
The F20C shares some cylinder dimensions with the H22 because it's also Honda, not because it's so similar in design. H22 has much more in common with the B and D series than the F20C.
How F20C is different than the H, D, and B series:
Direction of rotation
Timing chain/geartrain
Bottom ladder design (check this out sometime if you can- it's really interesting to see in person)
Purpose built for long. mounting
Head is tiny compared to any other
DOHC Honda
Head doesn't mate
New rockers
Tranny mount completely different
You could make a case it's somewhat similar to the K series, sans the timing control.
2002, 2003, 2004 with minor changes in head light...there is no way they will sell current nsx in 2005 ...therefore expect new HSC/NSX around this time as 2005 model...
order yours today!
I'm talking about something capacitor based instead of batteries. You'd be storing charge instead of electrochemical energy. This is more suitable to quick uptake of braking energy.
Yes. In theory this would be much better. There's been a number of research projects along these lines. NASA, Toyota and Okamura come to mind.
I just don't see these being ready for prime time in the near future. Just imagine the safety and practical concerns around a 50kw (1000+ watt-hours) thingamajig.
Gee...I always used to shy away from ignition coils. ;)
Based on Honda's past, I'm sure the HSC will produce in the 400 hp range. I must admit that even hearing that the HSC has "more than 300 hp" was disappointing.
Looking back at the previous models, their performance and pricing, I tried to get an idea of what to expect in the 2006 HSC.
Back in 1990, Acura introduced the NSX at a pretty difficult time. The Ferrari 328 was in its last year and the 348 was just introduced. Looking at the NSX engine you would have thought the 328 powerplant was the target.
89 328 (3.2L V8; 260hp @7000 rpm, 213 lb.-ft at 5500 rpm).
90 NSX (3.2L V6; 270hp @7100 rpm, 210 lb.-ft at 5300 rpm).
90 348 (3.4L V8; 300hp @7200 rpm, 238 lb.-ft at 4200 rpm).
At that time the NSX was going for around 68k. The 328 was going for around 68-74k. The 348 went for 103-110k. In terms of weight, the NSX was around 3020 lbs, and the 348 TB around 3070 lbs so the power to Weight ratio was very competitive.
Performance times were those of the Ferrari 348 (basically low 5s and quarter times in the low 14s). The NSX was actually introduced shortly after the 348.
Fast forward to 2003, the 360 is selling for around 150k-182k. The 2003 NSX price has remained the at 89k (The same price back in 97).
Now that the Honda/Acura lineup is doing ok, they can focus on the RL and NSX. I'm guessing the powerplant will probably be similar to the way the NSX was based off the 3.2L Legend engine.
As much as I like hybrid technology, I don't see it going into the next NSX. Even in a recent interview with the Honda CEO, he even said that buyers for this type of car are not concerned with fuel economy.
With that said, its most likely the HSC will use the 3.5L V6 and try to bump the power to over 400. Based on the past history of pricing, the HSC would sell for around 117k when compared to the price of a 360 Modena. That would make it cheaper than a 911 TT.
Why not use the engine in the old Acura Spice. If they can pull off 440 hp from that 3.0L engine, they should be able to get 425 hp from this 3.5L engine. Heck, I even see lines of the HSC from the Spice model. The materials in the HSC would have to be special. Back in 90, aluminum was rarely used. Maybe the HSC should use Kevlar and Carbon Fiber like in the Spice.
NSX Spice (3.0L V6; 440 hp @8500 rpm, 270 lb.-ft at 6000 rpm) - 2015 lbs. (0-60 time: 3.0 secs, 0-100 time: 6.3 secs, 1/4 time: 11 secs @130 mph)
<img src="http://tachyonic.net/nsx/pics/cd5941.jpg">
I may be stirring up a hornet nest here, but why are so many people concerned about how much hp the new car will have? I mean, how many people who own the current NSX can actually take the car to the extreme limits (under control) with 290 or even 270 hp for that matter? I know there are some people on this board and elsewhere that can, but I'm sure that a majority of the owners can't and don't push the car to the limits. I'm thinking that the people who are so obsessed with the hp rating will be modifying their cars anyway. I heard this same argument on other boards when the hp rating for the new TL was announced. Everyone was acting like it was the end of the world to only have 270 hp in the car. But how many TL owners could even take full advantage of that? How many people are going to race their TL's? I posed this same question to them. How many people could take their car to the track thinking their a hard ass and push the car as hard as they could. Then take that same car and let Rhys Millen (or someone similar) take it around the track. I think he could squeeze a little more than the average joe out of the car, even with a low hp rating. Hell, most professional drivers could probably scare the crap out of you in a 92 Civic DX! I think that 270 is more than addequite to do the job that Honda designed it to do. I know that I would love to have more hp. People think we'll be a huge joke with only 300 hp. Sure the Corvette has more, as well as Ferrari, Lambo, etc... But how many of those owners are businessmen who buy the cars just because they can? Most of the ones I see are. Just my .02 cents.
I think 99% of the HP angst is a desire to win bench races. I also think this attitude tends to be more prevalent in the US where HP and straight line performance seem to be the only thing most people care about.
Reading through a lot of these comments I think at least a few of the folks here are simply invested in the wrong car. If all you really care about is HP bragging rights, then just buy a Viper. All of this talk about what the upcoming Corvette C6 Z06 might do for $55k, meanwhile the Viper SRT10 is delivering 500hp for $80k *today* and is far more exotic than any Vette could ever be.
Personally, I can't imagine Honda would ever engage in this ridiculous hp war with the NSX. It's just not their style. I would say that we can expect significantly improved performance with the Gen 2 NSX coupled with the typically exquisite NSX balance and driving experience. If that's not enough for you because AMG Mercedes have 1000hp and Audis are pushing 500hp, then the NSX probably isn't for you.
If the new NSX is competitive with the 911 GT3 at the track, I'd call it a success. Meanwhile, I've seen the GT3 getting criticized (here in the states of course) b/c its "hp is too low" even though it is equalling or exceeding the 911TT at the track... Go figure.
If you want to brag about big HP and rocket past ricers in the 1/4 mile, then just buy these two items:
http://www.svt.ford.com/flash/index.html
http://www.kennebell.net/superchargers/ford/cobra03/cobra03.htm
Grand total $40k for 600hp and a brand new car. Sure it's a Mustang, but if big HP is what you want, it's tough to beat that value.
JoeSchmoe
11-04-2003, 22:53
Originally posted by White92
I may be stirring up a hornet nest here, but why are so many people concerned about how much hp the new car will have? I mean, how many people who own the current NSX can actually take the car to the extreme limits (under control) with 290 or even 270 hp for that matter?
I think thats totally wrong.
You could easily push the car to the limits (of acceleration anyway) in everyday driving. How hard is it to downshift and floor it? If you are in the correct gear and the pedal is fully depressed, you are pushing the engine to its limits.
Originally posted by spookyp
I think 99% of the HP angst is a desire to win bench races. I also think this attitude tends to be more prevalent in the US where HP and straight line performance seem to be the only thing most people care about.
I wholeheartly agree. If one would buy a $90K car to win bench races, his money is better spent in a Viper. But again, there is HP, RWHP and last but not least useable HP. I just would need the latter. :D
CokerRat
11-05-2003, 01:32
Originally posted by wctsao
Fast forward to 2003, the 360 is selling for around 150k-182k. The 2003 NSX price has remained the at 89k (The same price back in 97).Good points, wctsao. In fact if you look at the F355, it made 385 hp from it's 3.5L V-8 and yet the '97 NSX-T was neck-and-neck when it came to performance comparisons. The F-car may be a couple tenths quicker in the 1/4 but c'mon, for a 95 hp deficit, the NSX has always acquitted itself nicely. And when it comes to lap times, the gap is minimal.
The NSX has always outperformed what its engine rating suggests. Consider the 3.0L performance against the likes of the Supra TT (stock at 320hp) or the 3.2L versus the C5's 345hp or the F355's 385hp. A new engine with 350 hp and the same basic weight oughta perform neck and neck with a 360 Modena.
One last thing...the Z06 has undeniably changed the performance market. Anyone to whom performance at the track or dragstrip is top priority will not even consider an NSX of any vintage -- it is neither top performer nor bang-for-the-buck champ. Frankly, no amount of power is going to change that without driving the price into the stratosphere. The NSX's niche is a near-Ferrari experience with Honda precision and craftsmanship. Accept no substitutes!
Quoted in Motor Trend: HSC Designer Toshinoba Minami, "It (HSC) is a design study going back to sports car origins," he said. "A lightweight vehicle with a compact, high powered engine. Normally you would expect to find a V-8 or V-10 engine in such a car, but we have put in a V-6 3.5-liter engine which produces as much power as either of those. 300bhp, to be precise."
Horsepower IS important. Two things sell sports cars: performance and looks. If Honda can achieve the performance with 300hp, more power to them, but I think they'd have to get the weight below 2,500 lbs to do it and I don't see that happening. Which leaves horsepower.
I'm confident that HSC will continue the NSX's tradition of being better engineered, more refined, better balanced and better built than the competition. But that alone won't sell enough cars to make the HSC a success. Not at $100K, and probably not at $60K. The exotic looks of the HSC promise performance. A supercar that can't perform is like a porn star with erectile dysfunction. What's the point?
I'm not going to spend $100K to buy a car that looks fast but gets spanked by a $30K Subaru and I don't think many other buyers will either. The HSC is billed as a sports car, a two seater, paddle shifted, mid-engine, aluminum bodied sports car. It's not a touring car, it's a performance car. IT HAS TO PERFORM. I don't care how they do it - nuclear fusion, wind sail, anti-gravity paint, or good old less weight and more horsepower - but it must equal, and hopefully exceed, the performance of its rivals or it will fail.
NSX-Racer
11-05-2003, 05:08
Coker Rat wrote: Anyone to whom performance at the track or dragstrip is top priority will not even consider an NSX of any vintage
You may be right for the dragstrip but not for the track. Even Porsche techies would tell you (when noone else can hear) that the NSX is probably the only car you can take from the factory to the track that withstands long (and fast) track distances without failing and without altering anything. Even GT 3s (at least the older versions) have to be fine tuned by the owner to reduce understeer on the track.
I saw techies from different brands that looked at the NSX suspension/chassis/double wishbone with admiration. And they still shake their heads when they see my X after about 125,000 km overall and over 20,000 track km (most with race slicks!) where I only had to change some wheel bearings but no serious hardware.
The main problem is not the car itself but the Honda marketing and distribution (at least here in europe). You hardly found (and find) any commercials for the X or special events or other kind of support. You will even have a hard time to find a dealership that ever saw a NSX, not to speak of a Honda mechanic that has even the slightest experience with the car. That also means you have less than a handful of Honda showrooms in whole Germany with at least one X in it.
Nearly no dealer has any interest here to sell one because they have to pay about 15,000 Euro in advance when they order one and their gain margin is very small (the real prices are way lower than the sticker prices).
If that doesn't change the next NSX/HSC will be as unsuccessful as the existing one, no matter how much hp it has.
Originally posted by wctsao
Back in 1990, Acura introduced the NSX at a pretty difficult time. The Ferrari 328 was in its last year and the 348 was just introduced. Looking at the NSX engine you would have thought the 328 powerplant was the target.
89 328 (3.2L V8; 260hp @7000 rpm, 213 lb.-ft at 5500 rpm).
90 NSX (3.2L V6; 270hp @7100 rpm, 210 lb.-ft at 5300 rpm).
90 348 (3.4L V8; 300hp @7200 rpm, 238 lb.-ft at 4200 rpm). I'm sure it was just a typo. :cool:
CokerRat
11-06-2003, 02:03
Originally posted by NSX-Racer
You may be right for the dragstrip but not for the track. Even Porsche techies would tell you (when noone else can hear) that the NSX is probably the only car you can take from the factory to the track that withstands long (and fast) track distances without failing and without altering anything.I have to disagree. You may be right about the NSX being essentially set-up from the factory to be able to race, but it's clear that's not selling cars. If I was buying a car to go showroom-stock racing, I'd buy a Z06. If I was going to buy a car, do $20K worth of racing mods, I'd still buy a Z06. Give me a huge budget for racing and I'd buy a 996 TT or a 360 Challenge. Point is, nowhere in that equation is the NSX unfortunately. As brilliant as it was years ago, it cannot run with that crowd as it is today. The Gen 2 car could be a different story -- man I hope it is. If it can run directly with the likes of the 996TT, Z06 and Viper on the track then Honda will have achieved the unimaginable.
Frankly I think 350 hp is enough to compete successfully with those cars on the track, but as has been said so many times, probably not in the minds of a large number of buyers.
If that doesn't change the next NSX/HSC will be as unsuccessful as the existing one, no matter how much hp it has. The NSX needs to again become the functional and aesthetic equivalent of a Ferrari 360 at half the price. It appears it will have the body for the job... now will it have the speed?
kgb_agent
11-06-2003, 11:36
Originally posted by Rex
Horsepower IS important. Two things sell sports cars: performance and looks. If Honda can achieve the performance with 300hp, more power to them, but I think they'd have to get the weight below 2,500 lbs to do it and I don't see that happening. Which leaves horsepower.
I'm confident that HSC will continue the NSX's tradition of being better engineered, more refined, better balanced and better built than the competition. But that alone won't sell enough cars to make the HSC a success. Not at $100K, and probably not at $60K. The exotic looks of the HSC promise performance. A supercar that can't perform is like a porn star with erectile dysfunction. What's the point?
I'm not going to spend $100K to buy a car that looks fast but gets spanked by a $30K Subaru and I don't think many other buyers will either. The HSC is billed as a sports car, a two seater, paddle shifted, mid-engine, aluminum bodied sports car. It's not a touring car, it's a performance car. IT HAS TO PERFORM. I don't care how they do it - nuclear fusion, wind sail, anti-gravity paint, or good old less weight and more horsepower - but it must equal, and hopefully exceed, the performance of its rivals or it will fail.
What Rex said.
Quote from Evo mag:
"Honda has resisted the temptation to over-engine the HSC. Like the NSX, it'll be powered by a V6 VTEC unit developing 'over 300bhp' although evo has learnt that the final figure is expected to be around 360bhp. Not in the Enzo's league, then, but Honda is emphasizing drivability - as it did with the NSX.”
“Although the story being put around was that the HSC is a few years away from production, a senior Honda source told evo that he expected the car to appear much sooner - possibly as early as the beginning of 2005, and largely unchanged."
**************************************************
360hp might work if they can get it light enough, but given Honda's glacial pace updating the NSX, it seems far wiser to give it enough power to remain competitive for a few years, rather than handicap it right out of the gate. And what's this about limiting horsepower to maintain drivability? AMG is stuffing 600+ in everything in Mercedes' stable, all eminently drivable. A little AI intervention will keep things under control when testosterone exceeds talent.
We don't need 600hp but unless the HSC has a negative coefficient of drag, 360hp isn't likely to set many track records. Bragging rights are critical when selling cars. Auto industry prognosticators think Honda may not be able to remain independent unless it increases its market share. I would hate to see brilliant, innovative Honda become a division of General Motors. The HSC is the halo car for the franchise, its success (or lack thereof) will rub off on every car in the line.
Ford isn't betting the company on the GT on a whim. They are trying to save the entire company with a bold (if retro) statement that captures the public's imagination and casts a glow on every F-150 and Focus on the lot. The HSC needs to be an equally bold statement. Finesse is wonderful. finesse is why we bought NSX's, but the finesse market totals about 12.000 buyers over 14 years. Car magazines don’t do cover stories on finesse. Please, Honda, give the HSC all the finesse you’ve got, but also give it the balls to compete.
Rex
NetViper
11-07-2003, 10:45
Originally posted by Rex
Quote from Evo mag:
final figure is expected to be around 360bhp. Not in the Enzo's league, then, but Honda is emphasizing drivability - as it did with the NSX.”
**************************************************
360hp might work if they can get it light enough, but given Honda's glacial pace updating the NSX, it seems far wiser to give it enough power to remain competitive for a few years, rather than handicap it right out of the gate. And what's this about limiting horsepower to maintain drivability? AMG is stuffing 600+ in everything in Mercedes' stable, all eminently drivable. A little AI intervention will keep things under control when testosterone exceeds talent.
We don't need 600hp but unless the HSC has a negative coefficient of drag, 360hp isn't likely to set many track records.
Rex
I agree... 360 is OK at best. It should be enough for a mid 12 second 1/4 mile at around 115 MPH... about the same as a Z06.. at least until the next gen car comes out with 500HP and does it in 12 flat!. In 2 years the 360HP HSC will be getting dusted by a 50K vette, the next gen 360 and a bunch of 4-door sedans!
I guess the good news is that we can add the comptech SC on there and get 460 HP and be competitive..
As far as maintain drivability... that a pile of crap... I don't see E55 owners saying their cars are undriveable... or Z06 owners, or gallardo owners.. etc..etc... There are MANY high HP cars out now that are just as "driveable" as the NSX. That just really annoys me.
BryanZublin
11-07-2003, 13:11
Originally posted by NetViper If I-VTEC is so great.... why isn't the HSC using a V6 with I-VTEC?I recall that the original NSX test mule tested by the magazines in 1990 had a V6 without VTEC. Of course we all know that changed for the production model. It is quite possible that many things will change between the HSC concept car and the production model, hopefully for the better.
CokerRat
11-07-2003, 16:31
Originally posted by NetViper
In 2 years the 360HP HSC will be getting dusted by a 50K vette, the next gen 360 and a bunch of 4-door sedans!At this rate, in another 5 years a Corvette will do 0-60 in 3 seconds! :D (j/k)
This whole horsepower war, especially the sedans, has really taken off in the last couple of years. It has to plateau sometime. The supersedans have already gone well beyond common sense. If the NSX does more with less and spends more money to get there (eg. aluminum, high-strung smaller engines), is that a liability or a selling point? Sounds like most people here think it's a liability.
I dont think that Honda can put more than 280 ponies in any car. Isnt there a restricion on that in Japan
Originally posted by NMNSX
I dont think that Honda can put more than 280 ponies in any car. Isnt there a restricion on that in Japan
It is a mere "gentleman's agreement" between JDM manufacturers. Not a restriction at all, it is just about publishing numbers to the Japanese public. If the next NSX does 276 bhp, fine with me...
... as long as it's 276 bhp at 4000 RPM, with 5 more grands to go :D
At this rate, in another 5 years a Corvette will do 0-60 in 3 seconds!
Actually, as you get in the 0-60 in 4 second realm, you reach the point of diminishing returns. There's only so much traction to be had when you're limited to rubber tires and blacktop streets.
You can go to 4 wheel drive or super-sticky tires and optimize weight transfer but at some point you're limited by the laws of physics.
Even these 500-600hp monsters don't seem to get significantly faster than 4 seconds in the 0-60 run.
Perhaps JATO assist? ;)
Originally posted by apapada
It is a mere "gentleman's agreement" between JDM manufacturers. Not a restriction at all, it is just about publishing numbers to the Japanese public. If the next NSX does 276 bhp, fine with me...
... as long as it's 276 bhp at 4000 RPM, with 5 more grands to go :D
Nissan already sells an Infiniti sedan in the US with a V8 with an advertised horsepower rating of somewhere around 350hp. I'm curious if it's sold in Japan, and if so, what it's rated at...and if it's rated at 276hp, how much power it _really_ produces.
I think you guys have touched on the HP issue.
I will just say this 300 to 400 is fine if the car weighs 2000 lbs! LOL Actually my honest opinion is I dont care how much HP it makes. As long as the performance numbers are high! I think the idea behind the NSX from the beginning is not HUGE HP numbers but huge performance numbers and honda reliability.
Honda set the bar for exotic cars back in 1991, now with all the new technology I hope Honda shakes thinngs up again.
I also hope those kick ass doors make it into production!!! I doubt it but it would be hella cool
Originally posted by Rex
Horsepower IS important. Two things sell sports cars: performance and looks.
I'm confident that HSC will continue the NSX's tradition of being better engineered, more refined, better balanced and better built than the competition. But that alone won't sell enough cars to make the HSC a success. Not at $100K, and probably not at $60K. The exotic looks of the HSC promise performance. A supercar that can't perform is like a porn star with erectile dysfunction. What's the point?
I'm not going to spend $100K to buy a car that looks fast but gets spanked by a $30K Subaru and I don't think many other buyers will either. The HSC is billed as a sports car, a two seater, paddle shifted, mid-engine, aluminum bodied sports car. It's not a touring car, it's a performance car. IT HAS TO PERFORM
Totally agree!
AND Why spend a lot of energy in weight savings and not optimizing that work with big power?????????
If they don't, IMO, it is only doing 50% of job.
But I am sure that the new HSC will have easily more than
115 hp/L X 3,8 L which is over 400 hp.
queenlives
11-09-2003, 04:07
Originally posted by dnyhof
Doesn't anyone here think that Honda simply put the current v-6 in the HSC so that they don't tip their hand to the competition? why give Mazda, Nissan, or Toyota a head start?
My guess is that they're gonna do a 3.5 liter v-6 putting out 350-400hp. Wasn't the 3.0 v-6 back in 1991 waaaay ahead hp-wise from what their current line up had (if any of those cars had the 3.0)? Does anyone know if that's true? I'm looking at the 3.2 in the new tl doing 270, so wouldn't it make sense to put in the 3.5 in the nsx and kick it in the high 300's? just my 2 cents....
in general, i agree. my perspective is if they announce the new car and say it's coming in <1 year and has >300 hp, they'll negatively impact current model sales.
looks like an interesting ride and i'd be surprised if it wasn't at the high end of 300hp. sign me up :)
be well.
hal
:)
One important reason I purchased the NSX is because you can enjoy driving an exotic without constant repairs and or breakdowns. :D
The NSX will probably never be the top dog in the 1/4 mile or on top end. But it will last without breaking your bank account. If money is no object I doubt the NSX is your primary or only sports car.
I'll be happy if the new NSX can be fairly competive BUT RELIABLE.
There will always be Corvette's or Vipers with more horsepower that cost the same or less than a new NSX. Get one if you want a mass produced car like every other HP hungry person in town.
I do not think Honda is intending to make the new NSX a high volume production car. I do not want it to roll down a regular production line like everything else. I'll be disappointed if they do.
The NSX has never been Honda's cash producer. It is their flagship vehicle. I LIKE the fact that not everybody in town has an NSX.
The Corvette is so common that it is nothing special to encounter one on the road or in the parking lot. I don't want the NSX to become a common car encountered by most people every day.
I like having a car that is different. I think many NSX owners feel the same or they would already have something else.:cool:
NSX-Racer
11-09-2003, 07:51
prolego: Replace "Corvette" in your post by "Porsche 911" and you have exactly what I think and got here in Germany.
Prolego,
I agree with all the points you made, but I think they miss the bigger issue of what the NSX/HSC is all about (at least, what I think it’s all about).
It’s a symbol of Honda’s superior ability to innovate, engineer and build and an emblem of Honda’s proud racing heritage. It’s an object of desire that casts its aura over the entire product line. The HSC isn’t intended to be a direct cash producer, but can have a far-reaching impact on the company’s bottom line.
It can’t serve that function if it’s merely a reliable, competent vehicle. It has to set a new standard, just as the NSX did in 1991. In the ensuing 13 years the performance bar has been raised so high that 300 – 350 hp simply isn’t going to light any fires or win any comparos. The mere look of the HSC promises performance. To fail to deliver would be to fail.
I love the uniqueness of my NSX, the fact that I almost never see one in my area, where Corvettes and Porsches are as common as potholes. No matter how successful the HSC, I’m not worried that the streets will be flooded with them. Honda can’t produce them in that quantity, and there aren’t that many buyers for a $100,000 2-seater with limited trunk space. The HSC doesn’t need to sell in huge numbers to be a success. It just needs to repeat it’s paradigm shifting 1991 advances. Not a simple task, but, hey, this is Honda. They’ve been redefining the car and motorcycle industries from the day the first Honda rolled off the production line.
Rex
I agree that it should set a new standard but it doesn't mean it must match every other in horsepower and the 1/4 mile.
I would be great to see Honda achieve their performance through inovative use of technology and new materials.. A GOOD 4 wheel drive setup that gets power to the road instead of wheel spin. I enjoy a good squealing burnout as much as anyone but it does nothing to increase the cars performance.
Most car manufacturers can build a more powerful engine. The real challenge is to mate the right engine with the right chassis and have each one work with the other, not overwhelm one with the other.
I'm just concerned when so many are looking only at HP instead of the overall package. If it can run with the big boys I don't care if it is rated 100 HP. That would just makes the others look silly, having all that HP but not able to use it as effectively.
I want Honda to excell and prosper. The small guy that can give the big boys a bloody nose to keep them from becoming too smug.
CokerRat
11-10-2003, 02:10
Originally posted by prolego
I'm just concerned when so many are looking only at HP instead of the overall package. If it can run with the big boys I don't care if it is rated 100 HP.NSXers know that power alone does NOT equal performance, but a suprising number of people, even enthusiasts, think it does. People pay for power. A 300 hp 2400 lb car will be accorded lesser status by most people than a similar car at 3600 lbs with 450 hp, even though the lighter car will be more expensive to build and will far surpass the heavier car dynamically. Problem here is, are you shooting for the Porsche 996, or are you shooting for the Ferrari 360. They are different animals.
Regarding a Honda V-6: I can't see making more than 100 hp/litre in the new engine. Honda realized they went a little too far in trading sub-5000 rpm torque for 7000+ rpm power in the S2000. Imagine the embarrassment if critics callied the next NSX "gutless around town". Another 60hp due to +300cc and iVTEC feels realistic and shouldn't sacrifice drivability, yet would push NSX performance past its current rivals (ie. surpass the 360/C5/996/M3 but fall short of the 996TT/Viper).
I am of two minds on the issue of the engine... on one hand, I honestly believe a 350hp V-6 will be very competitive. Consider how well the 290hp version fares today against 350-395 hp counterparts. On the other hand, I honestly wonder why Honda can't or won't develop a new 3.6-4.4L V-8 to bolster several models' performance and brand image similar to how Nissan has done with the VQ-series V6. The NSX would get its 400 hp (albeit with a slight increase in weight), the MDX/Pilot would get class-leading engines, the new RL and TL could compete vs. the M-B/BMW/Lexus/Infinity models. It would appear the development costs, while very large, would be well-spent to strategically position the brand for the next 10 years.
many good points brought up. The press release does not confirm that the hsc IS the new nsx, as japanese language is ambigous it fits more perfectly as, "kinda, probably, will be. But we may change our mind'
It also states the global market is the aim. When designing the first nsx, did they cater to the Japanese market only? Or thought 'gee, we better put a shitload horsepower in it or the American's won't buy it'?
It would be interesting to hear what other countries think of the current car and the new car (replacement/second generation) especially some Japanese owners (Hishi are you there?)
Benchmark racing/ bragging rights seems to be hugely popular in America, what about Japan? Europe? In Australia 'my horse power is bigger than your horsepower' attitude is prevelant also, unfortunately.
Is this at the expense of all round goodness that the NSX of yesteryear represents/represented? Is the American market the most important factor to these makers? Or is this what Americans think? (Not bashing, genuinly curious, as i havent heard of Honda reps popping around to NSX owners in Oz asking what they would like to see improved)
Lastly, the gentlemen's agreement was broken a looong time ago. Again, in Japan as im finding a lot, as long as its written down on paper, the reality doesnt matter much. As long as its written on the spec sheet '280ps' its all good. Rx7, WRX, Skyline have long been quoting these..... ahem 'official' numbers.
Honda has always been a very "green" company and that is why I don't think we'll ever see huge hp numbers out of any of it's
engines. This whole hp war reminds me alot of the late 60's/ early 70's. Makes me wonder if NSX drivers will be laughing at Ferrari and Viper owners when the next energy crisis hits. Squeeze out another 60 hp and trim another 200 lbs. of fat, keep the price neutral and you've got a repeat customer. Also, offer us a Type-R with lighter wheels, less noise insulation, lighter seats, etc., etc.
Originally posted by spookyp
I think 99% of the HP angst is a desire to win bench races. I also think this attitude tends to be more prevalent in the US where HP and straight line performance seem to be the only thing most people care about.
Reading through a lot of these comments I think at least a few of the folks here are simply invested in the wrong car. If all you really care about is HP bragging rights, then just buy a Viper. All of this talk about what the upcoming Corvette C6 Z06 might do for $55k, meanwhile the Viper SRT10 is delivering 500hp for $80k *today* and is far more exotic than any Vette could ever be.
Personally, I can't imagine Honda would ever engage in this ridiculous hp war with the NSX. It's just not their style. I would say that we can expect significantly improved performance with the Gen 2 NSX coupled with the typically exquisite NSX balance and driving experience. If that's not enough for you because AMG Mercedes have 1000hp and Audis are pushing 500hp, then the NSX probably isn't for you.
If the new NSX is competitive with the 911 GT3 at the track, I'd call it a success. Meanwhile, I've seen the GT3 getting criticized (here in the states of course) b/c its "hp is too low" even though it is equalling or exceeding the 911TT at the track... Go figure.
If you want to brag about big HP and rocket past ricers in the 1/4 mile, then just buy these two items:
This is exactly my point too. Very well written!
The HP wars will end, and people will realize that the bench racers are ignorant fools. Soon you have cars with so much power, you'll be 100% dependant on anti spin, anti everything, just to be able to drive it. All the power can't be used. Then all you have left is a heavy car with lot's of power on paper. Just give us HP we can use and I'm happy.
Here is something to think about
Why did they stop producing the AC Cobra??
HP wars has been fought before. Learn from it.
Originally posted by nsx1
I'm sure it was just a typo. :cool:
The 1990 NSX had a 3.0L engine. In 1997 the engine was increased to 3.2L for manual transmission vehicles. The automatic transmission still has the 3.0L engine.
I think everyone's pretty much in agreement here. We don't care about horsepower per se, what we care about is performance. Unfortunately, it's damn hard to meet today's performance standards without more horsepower.
Maybe the argument is really about what we think Honda's mission is with the HSC. Is it to raise the bar for super cars as they did with the NSX in '91, forcing all manufacturers back to the drawing boards to equal the NSX's performance, innovation, refinement and build quality? Or is it just to add a well-engineered, striking looking, competent performing, probably very expensive car to the line? I don't see Honda setting their sights for their flagship so low. And I can't see a business case for such an underachiever unless the price is less than $60,000.
spdntckt
11-10-2003, 20:32
300 HP V6.. well.. i guess Gerry Johnson will be in business for quite some time with a new HSC 500HP turbo kit - LOL
Originally posted by Jimbo
One thing Honda has been criticized about is their lack of history. There's only one way to build a long history....and that's to keep a marque's name alive.
Honda's propensity to kill off model names is Legendary. :)
NSX Addict
11-12-2003, 13:40
Well here goes my thoughts...
I think Honda is trying to keep everyone in thinking that the so called next gen NSX will have 300hp because no one in the Japanese market is readily going to announce crossing that 300hp limit. We have all heard about that stupid hand shake deal, and if you think about it they might be trying to delay crossing it to see if someone else may go first.
I agree that if they don't increase the hp it will not sell anywhere near what they want it to at a higher pricetag then the Z06. I would love to see them go the supercharger or turbo route as I have a single turbo set-up (from Gerry Johnson) with 500rwhp. :D Now I don't expect anywhere near that output but it definitely needs to be at least 400hp at the crank to be competitive in the marketplace. And I really hope they dont go with this hybrid technology. Do you think it could be still called an exotic supercar with "hybrid technology?" I am not sure.
I just hope they are trying to conceal anything they are trying to do and surprise us all, but we will just have to wait and see.
Just do what I do...everynight before we goto bed we all say a prayer for more horsepower in the next NSX and maybe it will happen ;)
Thanx,
Don
1994 Formula Red Single Turbo NSX
trumperZ06
11-16-2003, 17:55
:D Honda's NSX was designed to compete with the NA Porsche in 1989. At that time the NSX was competitive, without the MTCE issues Porsche carries.
:o Life evolves and today the NSX is way under-powered! It's competition is the new Porsche GT-3 and the Honda won't even see its tail lights on a road course! Now the GT-3 is rated just under 400 hp. and is competitive for 2004.
:rolleyes: Next year, 500 HP. will be the norm for high end sports cars. Honda truly needs a 4 liter V-8 or maybe the Formula 1 V-10 de tuned and stroked to 4 liters. Porsche has to go to twin turbo's in order to compete with the Z06 & Viper today! They spent 25 years perfecting them! Does Honda want to go down that path?
:p It takes Horse-Power at tracks like Road Atlanta and VIR. Honda has to meet the competition, if they want to sell the NSX as a preminium Sports Car! Let's see how serious Honda is about staying in this market! Currently, they are NOT selling enougth new NSX's to be worth while!
Trumper's points are well-taken. Unfortunately,
Honda apparently has no interest in sports-car racing, at least
not in the U.S. Now that Realtime Racing has abandoned the NSX,
there is virtually no Honda presence in GT cars. Is the HSC (or next gen NSX) going to be raced in the JGTC?, probably. Is it going to be raced in the U.S.?, I really doubt it (except for privateers). A shame really, because with more hp (as in the JGTC), the NSX is truly competitive. Racing is expensive and Honda is apparently going to focus on just the IRL and not sportscar racing here in the U.S.
We will have DAL's efforts to look forward to in 04!In grand Am cup.
I thought there was to be another official anouncement today...
(believe I read this on one of the links).
Hi gang,
You guys kill me. Here I am gone for a year or so and the next generation NSX gets announced and you guys are still finding reasons to complain because it doesn't have 500hp?! Oh well.
I thought I would point out one seemingly obvious fact and that is if Honda is successful in putting the next gen NSX wannabe on a diet, then the 300hp-350hp would be more than enough. Keep in mind that weight reduction benefit is not linear, so you get more than a 1:1 benefit in most cases depending on where the weight savings comes from. Lighter body parts are just the start. But, imagine that you take the current 3200 lb monster and reduce the weight by just 23%, you have essentially taken a 350 hp motor and made it look like it produces 450 hp. Everything benefits from the weight savings from handling to zero-60 times and even gas mileage.
The other ironic thing about some of the comments so far is that you guys are heck bent on discounting the V6, even as far back as 1991. Granted, you can get a $30,000 car with a 350hp V8, but it is still a PONTIAC GTO! :) Heck, buy two. Clearly, even back in 1991, the V6 was light, compact and offered the best overall neutral handling and weight balance options... but then again, most of you knew that already. ;)
One of the nice things about being able to afford to drive just about anything that I want is that you get a lot of "first hand" experience with lots of cars. I am now on car #28 and my 17th in 10 years. So, what am I looking to buy next... well, I have to say that I miss my NSX. Anyone got a good 1997 Black/Black? ;)
Well, thanks gang. Time to poke around the site and see what I missed. :) G-man out!
More info on vtec.net: The rest of the Autocar interview with
Mr. Fukui is paraphrased. The next NSX is still > 1 year out.
The US will be the priciple target market. The emphasis will be on performance, not on volume of sales. Interestng comments on other Honda models, including RWD vs. AWD RL.
John Michael
11-22-2003, 05:31
http://www.carlist.com/conceptcars/2004conceptcars/hondahsc.html
Hey everyone, check out the link above! You gotta love this car, and you can bet that no matter what, there will be one of these sitting in my garage as soon as they're available. Is this cool or what? The interior and everything about the car looks fantastic.
I can't wait!:cool:
ChopsJazz
11-23-2003, 14:44
Originally posted by G-man
Anyone got a good 1997 Black/Black? ;)
G-man, here's one (http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=25729) that may interest you. Good to have you back here!
littledreamer
12-01-2003, 00:05
well its definently not 80's looking anymore . . .
http://sohc.vtec.net/news_files/180868/spoon_HSC.jpg
new info brought to my attention confirm that Honda engineers are working on a plethora of new engines for the 2005-2008 timeframe, and I'm quoting here a senior engineer saying: "our engines in five years from now will be completely different from what you would find in today's cars". Some details I cannot unfortunalely share on this public forum, but as you know, the new gen NSX will be launched right into this time period. The longitudinal v10 engine I was hinted to in the past seems will not make it into production afterall, but the engine shown at the Tokyo A-show is not it either. It was repeated to me that the engine will be "better than a v8". I sincerely start believing that we may see a hybrid powertrain afterall...
NetViper
12-03-2003, 23:32
A hybrid is TERRIBLE news. Let's hope that is not it! A hybrid V6 is NOT better than a V8.
I wish it was a V10. That would be very competitive with what is coming.
I guess I will just hold out for that 3.6L V6 with 450HP!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by NetViper
I never meant that it would be a hybrid v6. maybe a hybrid v8.
although I would not want a hybrid either, why are you saying it would be "terrible" ?
NetViper
12-03-2003, 23:38
Simply because on the race track, the battery will die after a few laps and we will carry dead weight. That is the ENEMY. Maybe in 3 years that will be solved.
Originally posted by NetViper
Simply because on the race track, the battery will die after a few laps and we will carry dead weight. That is the ENEMY. Maybe in 3 years that will be solved.
This is not how hybrids engines operate. You basically have 2 "schools of thoughts" on this. The Honda way uses a regular engine 100% of the time with an occasional boost from an electric motor. The batteries are being continuously charged either by the engine or through regenerative braking. They are NEVER let to run out of juice, hence they are NEVER dead weight...
NetViper
12-03-2003, 23:49
When was the last time you saw a Civic Hybrid on the racetrack?
actually, on cars WITH COMPARABLE WEIGHT, a hybrd powertrain would allow to shave some serious seconds from your laptime as it would seriously flatten out that power curve, creating an artificial extra-wide powerband (what the current NSX lacks big time, IMHO). As you already know, torque is what is really pushing the cars forward out of corners, and electric motors have plenty of it at low RPMs!
So what "inside" info do you have on the electrical portion of the hybrid powertrain?
Does Honda have some new technology up their sleeve? If they are using structurally stressed (part of the chassis) supercapacitors instead of conventional batteries, well, that was my idea from when I was in elementary school. :D
spdntckt
12-03-2003, 23:53
I actually disagree with this. .if you look at an NSX dyno graph, it has one of the flattest torque curves in the market...
A turbo car is even flatter
NetViper
12-03-2003, 23:54
I think they might be using the Flux-capacitor to generate 1.21 Gigawatts of battery power! This will in-turn create ample low end torque and the best part is that it runs on garbage!
:)
Originally posted by Ojas
So what "inside" info do you have on the electrical portion of the hybrid powertrain?
none.
It is a well know fact that Honda is a strong believer in hybrid technology. It is also public knowledge that they are developing new powertrains using hybrid-electric (and others) technology. They publicly mentioned the idea of a potential application in the HSC, which at the time I personally dismissed on grounds of other info I had. The v10 in the new gen NSX is no longer a solution, hence the hybrid powertrain might be the next great thing ! it's as simple as that. I was NOT implicitely NOR explicitely told the next gen NSX will have a hybrid powertrain.
Originally posted by NetViper
the best part is that it runs on garbage!...only if you buy the optional Mr. Fusion, which will no doubt carry the same unreasonable markup as most dealer-installed options.
NetViper
12-03-2003, 23:59
Originally posted by Ojas
...only if you buy the optional Mr. Fusion, which will no doubt carry the same unreasonable markup as most dealer-installed options.
Maybe SOS will come out with a cheaper version and MB can tune it.
ncdogdoc
12-04-2003, 00:07
Originally posted by apapada
actually, on cars WITH COMPARABLE WEIGHT, a hybrd powertrain would allow to shave some serious seconds from your laptime as it would seriously flatten out that power curve, creating an artificial extra-wide powerband (what the current NSX lacks big time, IMHO). As you already know, torque is what is really pushing the cars forward out of corners, and electric motors have plenty of it at low RPMs!
I realize you are new to the track with the NSX, but the idea behind the wonderful motor in this car IS the extra wide torque curve, not like the typical high revving strung out engine, or the low revving but narrow peak torque with say a v-8. Due to the extremely flat torque curve, you can still salvage a missed downshift or just not down shift at all if you would just upshift within a couple of seconds after the turn.
Would I like more torque? Yes. Would I give up a flat curve to have a higher number? No. Do I want regenerative battery power to an IMA motor? Give me a paddle shift 7 speed transmission and 2700 pounds, and I will take on anyone on any track that has straights of less than 1 mile in length, and probably win. (As did the LMP675 at Sears this year)
I don't think the end result will disapoint us,whatever the powertrain.As long as Honda dos'nt aquire norelco in the interum.BTW it is my gut feeling that this hsc/new nsx was designed in the very recent past,and that the go ahead was'nt given till late in the game.For that reason and the lack of credible buzz as to what will power it,I feel that even that is being debated at Honda.Therefore they now need some time to really design and build the real deal.I have faith that it will impress.At what price?
everyone says that the NSX torque curve is flat. I have to say that I have seen flatter than that, with higher or lower plateaux.
Here is the torque curve for an nsx :
and here are some torque curves that I would qualify as flat (lower or higher values):
Originally posted by apapada
Here is the torque curve for an nsxThat does not look right. What's the source of that plot? Is VTEC working? :confused:
It should look similar to the dotted curve here:
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Technical/images/97/97NSXPowerCurve.gif
Now, imagine what a curve like this
would do at low RPM when the engine above would be combined with a motor whose torque curve looks like this:
ncdogdoc
12-04-2003, 00:42
I do not see your point, sorry. Neither one of these engines is as powerful as the NSX if I am reading the scales right, and have limitied RPM ranges for the "flat" regions.
BTW, here is an actual (not MS Paint) dyno plot from the 3.2 liter.
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Technical/images/97nsxpowercurve.gif
edit: Dammit Larry, you beat me to it:D
Originally posted by apapada
would do at low RPM when the engine above would be combined with a motor whose torque curve looks like this: Um - I don't know... Maybe it would burn insane amounts of rubber from a dead stop, but put down less and less torque as you build up speed?
I'm not discounting a hybrid drivetrain (I have confidence in Honda), but I don't follow the point you're trying to make.
Originally posted by Ojas
That does not look right. What's the source of that plot? Is VTEC working? :confused:
it is my understanding that the VTEC is working fine and that this graph represents data from a 1991-1994 Stock NSX 3.0 L 5spd Manual engine. I cannot remember nor quote where I got the data from (it was somewhere on the net, probably nsx prime).
Originally posted by Ojas
Um - I don't know... Maybe it would burn an insane amounts of rubber from a dead stop, but put down less and less torque as you build up speed?
close but not quite imho. It would indeed provide an instant enormous amount of torque but the reciprocal engine torque would take over as the RPMs build up since the DC motor would assist it less and less. I'm speculating that the system could be tuned to have a perfectly flat curve, at any RPM.
Wickeddeus
12-04-2003, 16:06
The World's Fastest Electric Car
Forbes magazine's look at AC Propulsion's tZero electric car.
Source: Forbes
[Oct 24, 2003]
http://www.evworld.com/images/tzero.jpg
AC Propulsion's tzero roadster is a reason to not give up on the electric vehicle. The tzero does 0 to 60 mph in 3.6 seconds, according to the company, and it does it on only 200 horsepower because of its light weight and torque.
The San Dimas, Calif.-based company says the tzero (pronounced "tee-zero," not "chair-o") has compared favorably in acceleration tests to Corvettes, Porsche 911s--and even a Ferrari F355, which it claims to have "out-accelerated...by eight car lengths" in one-eighth-mile drag races. If for nothing else, the tzero's $220,000 sticker price puts it in exotic-car territory.
The low weight helps make the tzero so quick, but its torque--the turning force that pulls it off the line--is just as important, if not more. Conventional internal combustion engines need to rev to a certain rate before reaching their peak torque, but the tzero's torque peaks instantly, with 183 ft-lbs. available from 0 to 5,000 rpm.
Of course, AC Propulsion, a specialist in electric vehicles, must realize that demand for electric cars has toppled. Ford Motor recently announced plans to discontinue the electric version of its Ranger pickup, and hybrids, diesels and hydrogen cars now seem like more viable alternatives to electric cars, whose customers have complained about their golf-cart powerplant noise and limited range.
Indeed, the tzero can only go 280 to 300 miles at 60 mph without recharging--even if it can recharge on any 120- or 240-V power socket. And if you accelerate it like an Italian exotic, or even take it on a hilly route, that range can decrease by up to about 20%.
The range has actually increased over time. AC Propulsion had made the tzero with lead-acid batteries since 1997, but this year released a revamped version with the kind of lithium-ion batteries used in laptop computers. The range, which increased to 280 to 300 miles from 100 miles per charge, now compares well with fuel cell cars.
But even if AC Propulsion claims the vehicle has efficiency equivalent to 70 mpg (and zero emissions), the tzero is, to a certain extent, an exercise in automotive fantasy. Its Spartan interior looks like a science project, in which most of the controls apart from the CD player are gadgets to monitor the battery and tiny 110-lb. motor. Drivers get an analog current meter, voltmeter, altimeter, and battery-voltage display with LED lights that measures temperature and charging limits.
Remember, though, this is more of an experiment than a traditionally appointed car. The tzero does not come with air-conditioning. And to lower its top and windows, you detach them and store them in the trunk. Talk about alternative energy expenditures.
this is the larger picture for everyone...
The more I think about it, the more a hybrid powerplant makes sense.
With a whole flew of high perf cars and supercars out there now, it will be nearly impossible to make the NSX a standout with just good performance alone.
The first NSX was something very special for its time. It was a high performance exotic that had the reliability of Honda. It also showcased Honda's new technologies including independent 4 channel ABS, VTEC, traction control, etc.
If the NSX were to be released now with a sequential tranny, 400hp, great handling, and good looks - would it really be very special?
Now with a hybrid powerplant, Honda is able to do things the competition is not able to do:
1. With instant torque on tap, you no longer need to rely on VTEC. You can now build the car with only high RPM HP in mind. This makes it easier to get more HP per liter out of the car. I would think that 120 - 130 hp per liter would not be too difficult to attain since they already get 120 hp per liter with the S2000.
2. So take a 3.5 liter engine making say, 455HP (130HP per liter) then throw in 50HP - 100HP from an electric motor and now you have over 500HP. Plus, you get a lot of low end power from the electric motor AND all wheel drive - both of which will dramatically help exit speed.
3. Now, with the electric motor, the NSX is able to now also to give you better mileage. So you get this high HP car that will get you say, 30+ miles per gallon.
Just speculation of course. I personally wouldn't mind having a hybrid car. I'm sure Honda wouldn't create a hybrid sports car that runs out of juice at track events.
-J
I hope Honda folks read this thread,,please don't make the next nsx a slot car!I know you are designing a car looking forward but please listen to Rush's Red Barchetta about a hundred times before you decide on a hybrid!And give me a manual tranny option,Signed Archie Bunker.
Silver F16
12-08-2003, 14:34
A hybrid will carry dead weight around the track within a few laps because the regenerative energy is best captured when braking is done slowly and over a long period of time. At the track, there is a lot of hard braking. It is done quickly and therefore not be able to build up enough charge to keep up with the demand. Hence, within a few laps, you are looking to haul around an extra 200 lbs of dead weight around a race track. This subject has been covered in the past.
The Honda Phantom V10 concept looks very exotic. If Honda wants to charge 90K for a sport car, it needs to be look exotic with enough ponies to back it up.
IMO, HSC look not look exotic and is more a like collage of mixed design cues that doesn't integrate well and lacks a harmonous theme.
NetViper
12-08-2003, 15:38
If that HSC had the phantom V10 in there, it would sell like hotcakes!
BryanZublin
12-10-2003, 17:14
Originally posted by Silver F16 A hybrid will carry dead weight around the track within a few laps because the regenerative energy is best captured when braking is done slowly and over a long period of time. At the track, there is a lot of hard braking. It is done quickly and therefore not be able to build up enough charge to keep up with the demand.(snip)Most tracks have at least a few corners that can not be taken at full throttle. Therefore, you could use that "unused" power to recharge the batteries.
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