Damage to the Frame?

[andy_d_chen]

UGH! My pristine '96 had a accident with a dip in the road in an poorly marked construction zone. My car dropped into a very steep gap in the road as I was crossing through an intersection in a construction zone. The bottom of my car SLAMMED into ground and made a teeth clenching thump sound. I was able to drive off but when I got out to inspect the damage, my chin spoiler was dragging on the ground and WORSE there was a 1 inch gap in the seam between my front fender (nose of the car) and my hood. The gap tapered from 1 inch on the drivers side to flush on the passenger side. Besides that, there is no visible damage.

The shop said the radiator core where the radiator sits and the hood latch also sits was bent upwards. Being that the NSX is an aluminum car, some people have told me my car is now totaled and that it's near impossible to get the frame shaped back. Assuming the Radiator core is part of the aluminum frame.

Is this true or is there hope for me. Would love anyone's thoughts on my predicament. I'm gonna go into to the shop tomorrow and take some pictures to post on here as well.

Thanks in advance for all your help.

[Osiris_x11]

Post numerous, high-quality, detailed pics and then we'll talk! Till then, it's all guesses/inferences/hooey...

(from afar, an important thing to check would be your front-wheel alignment...)

[socalx]

the question is did the radiator support also bend either of the front frame rails. there is one on the driver side and one on the passeger side. they go from the passeger compartment to the front bumper and support the radiator support. if the radiator support bent and did not bend the frame rails i would feel a lot better but if either frame rail is bent then i would be more concerned.

please keep us updated

[swerve]

sounds like the nose section came off.

[vandale]

Dont believe all the bullsh-t you read here about not being able to repair the NSX because it is alloy. It is only unqualified panel beaters and people not in the know who will tell you that.

My NSX was imported from auction in Tokyo, it stated 'no damage'. When the car arrived we noticed the front left wheel was sitting back about 10mm from the right front wheel, up on the hoist and this is what was going on:

Front left chassis rail was sitting left 10mm
front lower cross member popped off spot welds
front left inner guard skin (alloy) popped off 2 spot welds.

I took the car to a well known alloy vehicle repairer (ferrari, mercedes, audi and NSX sucessfully repaired in the past).

They heated and bent the chassis straight, Air New Zealand were contracted to do the welding, laser aligned the chassis with original Honda specs and xrays were taken of the modified alloy for cracks.

The car was then assembled, repair certed and assessed for road use.

My advice to you is make sure the welder is certified for silica 6000 alloy and the welding rig can penetrate the 3 layers of alloy, also the spot welds need to be drilled out, sand blasted between the 3 layers and retigged at a large depth. Make sure it is xrayed and all will be sweet.

Hope that helps, remember that Honda released a repair guide for body shops, if all is followed to Honda spec then you will have nothing to worry about.

Regards

Gene

[clr1024]

I would go take pictures of where this happened and file a report with the authorities. You may need that for insurance later on depending on the outcome.

[NSXRguy]

any shop who knows exactly what theyre doing can bend it back into shape if needed, or replace an entire panel

[s14_tat]

Originally Posted by NSXRguy

any shop who knows exactly what theyre doing can bend it back into shape if needed, or replace an entire panel

If there are no kinks it is possible to straighten out the rails. However if the rail warrants replacement, it only comes as a entire front section from the factory and it cost $12000. It is extremely easy to total an nsx due to part cost.

[Hugh]

The only person you should be discussing this with is pbassjo. No one else has a clue, including myself.

[Big_D]

Dang, that sucks. Sorry to read about this. I am always on the lookout for road debris and obstacles. That forces me to leave a lot of room in front of my car to give me better reaction time.

[vsy05]

Originally Posted by vandale

Dont believe all the bullsh-t you read here about not being able to repair the NSX because it is alloy. It is only unqualified panel beaters and people not in the know who will tell you that.

My NSX was imported from auction in Tokyo, it stated 'no damage'. When the car arrived we noticed the front left wheel was sitting back about 10mm from the right front wheel, up on the hoist and this is what was going on:

Front left chassis rail was sitting left 10mm
front lower cross member popped off spot welds
front left inner guard skin (alloy) popped off 2 spot welds.

I took the car to a well known alloy vehicle repairer (ferrari, mercedes, audi and NSX sucessfully repaired in the past).

They heated and bent the chassis straight, Air New Zealand were contracted to do the welding, laser aligned the chassis with original Honda specs and xrays were taken of the modified alloy for cracks.

The car was then assembled, repair certed and assessed for road use.

My advice to you is make sure the welder is certified for silica 6000 alloy and the welding rig can penetrate the 3 layers of alloy, also the spot welds need to be drilled out, sand blasted between the 3 layers and retigged at a large depth. Make sure it is xrayed and all will be sweet.


Gene

I don't think anyone here is disputing that it can't be fixed. We put a man on the moon, of course anything is possible. It just cost money.

The problem here is that insurance companies in the US are in business to make money. They are not going to contract NASA just to fix your NSX. They will pay only enough money for Joe down the street to hammer it out with a mallet and a home depot ruler.

Plus, there is a lot of risk for the insurance company if the owner were to have an accident and was killed or injured do to improper repairs. Lawyers love this sort of case.

That is why most insurance will salvage out the car. Most of the time, it is in your best interest that they salvage out the car when it has frame damage. Many owner here on Prime has been able to trade up with the insurance payout.

[stevetwors]

Originally Posted by vandale

Dont believe all the bullsh-t you read here about not being able to repair the NSX because it is alloy. It is only unqualified panel beaters and people not in the know who will tell you that.

My NSX was imported from auction in Tokyo, it stated 'no damage'. When the car arrived we noticed the front left wheel was sitting back about 10mm from the right front wheel, up on the hoist and this is what was going on:

Front left chassis rail was sitting left 10mm
front lower cross member popped off spot welds
front left inner guard skin (alloy) popped off 2 spot welds.

I took the car to a well known alloy vehicle repairer (ferrari, mercedes, audi and NSX sucessfully repaired in the past).

They heated and bent the chassis straight, Air New Zealand were contracted to do the welding, laser aligned the chassis with original Honda specs and xrays were taken of the modified alloy for cracks.

The car was then assembled, repair certed and assessed for road use.

My advice to you is make sure the welder is certified for silica 6000 alloy and the welding rig can penetrate the 3 layers of alloy, also the spot welds need to be drilled out, sand blasted between the 3 layers and retigged at a large depth. Make sure it is xrayed and all will be sweet.

Hope that helps, remember that Honda released a repair guide for body shops, if all is followed to Honda spec then you will have nothing to worry about.

Regards

Gene

i talked to 2 body shops in my area and they both said essentially the same thing: they will only bend aluminum alloy rails if it is off 3, maybe 4 mm. not 10! they also said there is no body shop in the US equipped with an xray machine for cracks, maybe they have that in new zealand but not the US.

[vsy05]

And he said that he got Air New Zealand to do the welding. That's amazing.

If my NSX ever gets into an accident I'm going to force my insurance company to contract Boeing to fix my NSX.

[andy_d_chen]

It's really bad. I just got back from the body shop. The damage is way beyond 10mm of displacement. There's a huge wrinkle on my driver side front rail and the header of the rail on that side of the frame is down around 1/2 inch.

I've posted pictures at this link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/andydar...7622736074006/

The first picture ( pic #1) is a shot with the nose off the car. If you look closely you can see the header of the rail on the driver side of the car is lower than the rail header on the passenger side. The top of the frame above the radiator is also twisted out of plane.

The next two pictures show the driver side (pic #2) and passenger side (pic #3) front rail. For the driver side you can see a wrinkle on the side of the rail near the radiator vs. the passenger side which is completely smooth. That's where the rail buckled on the driver side.

The next two pictures show a bracket that is bolted onto the front rail on both the driver side (pic #4) and passenger side (pic #5). On the driver side you will see that the bracket has been push backward and is out of position. The bottom of this bracket on the driver side is where the impact with the road occurred. This forced the bracket backward which bent the driver side frame down. The displacement is very obvious if you compare the positioning of the two brackets in pics #4 and #5 where it shows a perfectly positioned bracket. The bolts that attach the bracket to the rail are still attached and tore through the webbing of the rail as it was displaced.

I'm very afraid that the car will go into salvage or be totaled by the insurance company for this . . . I literally almost cried when I was at the shop tonight.

Any advice on what I should do and how I should handle this with either the repair shop or the insurance company would be greatly appreciated. It’s currently at Goodson Acura here in Dallas where I’ve done all my service work (many Dallas NSX’ers trust Goodson for their service). The body guy at the dealership’s collision center has been working on Acura’s for 15 years. I’m with Allstate insurance.

The body shop is gonna call me with a final run down of the damage and estimate tomorrow.

[s14_tat]

the car is bad for hitting a pot hole but its not that bad. i see no kinks in the rails so it looks possible to do a slow cold pull on a frame machine without using any heat. if you look at all the newer bmw 5 series and up they all have aluminum rails to save weight and i see them be pulled all the time in worse condition than that.

so right now you have two choices, you can either have the body shop try to total the vehicle out or you can have them fix it. when i say total, from what i remembered in i-car is that you cannot section aluminum rails and you need to replace the whole thing. well the whole front sub structure is one assembly for this vehicle which includes the strut tower, the upper and lower rails, the aprons and the rad support. That structure cost $12K, and it would probably total out your vehicle. If your insurance can give you a fair settlement amount than i would take it ( thats if your bodyshop can convince the insurance adjuster that the rail cannot be repaired. In this case it looks like it can). if you want to fix it, you can as well but I would recommend you take it to a aluminum certified repair shop. you cannot use repair aluminum in the same space as you repair steel. the dust from the steel can contaminate bare aluminum which will cause galvanic corrosion and bubbling of the paint over time. The problem is that you already have the shop touch your vehicle, they will not be happy if you decided to take the vehicle out of their shop to a different shop for repair. they can rape you in charges such as charging you for an appraisal fee, labor to R & I panels etc etc which might end up being up to $1000.

[andy_d_chen]

S14_tat, thanks for the response. I noticed you are an insurance adjuster. Can you tell me how insurance companies determine if a car should be totalled? Is it simply if repair cost is greater than payout? My car is priced at $34K in NADA and KBB has it as $39K. It's a very pristine '96 with 55K miles on it.

Thanks again.

[s14_tat]

I was a insurance adjuster, what determines a car to be totaled varies from state to state. In New York the total repair needs to exceed 75% of the vehicles actual cash value. In some other states it can go as high as 85%. There is also another way to total a vehicle which is called a constructive total loss. This means that the damage now plus any open items such as engine, transmission, suspension component etc and cost of rental and any other misc fees such a storage and towing and tear down fees matches or exceeds 100% of cash value.

In all honesty no insurance adjuster wants to be married to a car that has potential problem. If you want this car gone, you can try to get the shop to convince the adjuster that the car will never be right, I mean if you see the price of the parts for the vehicle ( fenders cost $1000, hood is around $2000, the whole bumper cover assembly not including the bumper brackets and reinforcements cost $1700 ) and thats just the cost of parts, not including paint time, and blending all the adjacent panels for color matching and the repair cost adds up.

In New York by law if they fix the car and the car ends up getting more supplemental repairs ( missed damage ) and that ends up putting the car past the 75% mark, the insurance company has to buy the car back and total the car. Which means the company has already paid the repairs and still pay you the total loss settlement and take your car. It is not worth the trouble for them to do that. So it comes down to which route you want to go? Do you want this car gone or do you want it fixed? Its one of those if you just repair it, it should be okay. But if you can convince the adjuster that the rails are not repairable and its going to be a nightmare for him, and pull out the rule books and follow the repair procedure down to the T, than its totaled. Definitely keep us updated and let me know how many hours the body shop has in the structural repair including frame setup measure and pull time. I have a number in my head and I want to see if I still have got it.

[Mingus]

Originally Posted by s14_tat

If the rail warrants replacement, it only comes as a entire front section from the factory and it cost $12000.

This is wrong information.

[s14_tat]

Originally Posted by Mingus

This is wrong information.

Not that I ever wrote a NSX but on the CCC Pathways software if you look under the front structural section, it only shows an entire front clip. Since that is all I have see, that is what I have assumed since there was no individual parts listed. So I apologize if that was not the case, well if they do sell individual components in the front structure than that makes the situation easier. The car is definitely not a total.

edit: I have wrote dummy estimates on my own car just to see what it totals at, and how much the parts cost.

edit again: I have just looked at the front bulkhead diagram from bernardi parts.com and that does confirm what Mingus stated, You can buy the rails in sections. Hmmmmm I wonder why the CCC pathways estimating software was so off on that one. Oh well thats what the internet is for, learning more information. Thanks for the tip =)

[Mingus]

Originally Posted by s14_tat

In New York by law if they fix the car and the car ends up getting more supplemental repairs ( missed damage ) and that ends up putting the car past the 75% mark, the insurance company has to buy the car back and total the car.

You overlooked that this car is a 1996. 13 years old.

[s14_tat]

in new york it doesn't matter how old the car is. the same rules will apply because they know that certain older vehicles will be worth a good amount. I mean I totaled out this piece of crap 1972 cadillac eldorado convertible that looked like it belonged to a pimp and that car was worth 12K!!!

[pbassjo]

I think the point Mingus is trying to make is that in NY once a vehicle is over ten year old it is not subject to title branding so the Ins. Co. can go to 100% if it wants and sometimes they do.

Moot point since the car is in Texas under, I assume, a Texas policy.

Looks like he went into a pot hole with the left front wheel, hit the tie down bracket and bent the front of the rail down probably giving it overall a little lift as well.

BTW in CCC there is a "front structural section" that depicts the front uni-structure as one piece ( good luck ordering that) but under the fender section if you go to the subsection you'll find a breakdown of this and the pieces are serviced separately though the rail only comes with the apron. MUCH less than 12k more like 4k.
Goodnight, 5am comes early for me.

[s14_tat]

Originally Posted by pbassjo

I think the point Mingus is trying to make is that in NY once a vehicle is over ten year old it is not subject to title branding so the Ins. Co. can go to 100% if it wants and sometimes they do.

Moot point since the car is in Texas under, I assume, a Texas policy.

Looks like he went into a pot hole with the left front wheel, hit the tie down bracket and bent the front of the rail down probably giving it overall a little lift as well.

BTW in CCC there is a "front structural section" that depicts the front uni-structure as one piece ( good luck ordering that) but under the fender section if you go to the subsection you'll find a breakdown of this and the pieces are serviced separately though the rail only comes with the apron. MUCH less than 12k more like 4k.
Goodnight, 5am comes early for me.

Good point pbassjo, I never thought of that. I guess I never tried to save a 10+ year old car, usually they are full blown total losses that had no chance of being saved.

[Osiris_x11]

IF there is a need to replace a front frame-rail, contact ERZ / All Type Auto. They have a dedicated portion of their warehouses in NY & FL for any-&-all NSX parts/carcasses.

Assuming it's just frame-rail related & no suspension components are mangled/bent (ie. upper/lower control-arms, knuckle, compliance-pivot, etc'), then the bulk of the cost will be removing everything from the front firewall (including the dash) onward, removing/replacing the front frame-rail, and reinstalling everything from the front firewall (including the dash) onward. The quoted labor-by-the-book for such a job is heart'palpitation inducing. When it comes to an NSX, replacement suspension components can prove to be the difference when writing-off/totaling vs. repair-settlement.

An NSX w/ a replaced frame-rail will be just fine (IMHO), if done by a proficient/experienced individual.

And, but of-course... pbassjo can offer the most insight!

[vandale]

Originally Posted by vsy05

I don't think anyone here is disputing that it can't be fixed. We put a man on the moon, of course anything is possible. It just cost money.

The problem here is that insurance companies in the US are in business to make money. They are not going to contract NASA just to fix your NSX. They will pay only enough money for Joe down the street to hammer it out with a mallet and a home depot ruler.

Plus, there is a lot of risk for the insurance company if the owner were to have an accident and was killed or injured do to improper repairs. Lawyers love this sort of case.

That is why most insurance will salvage out the car. Most of the time, it is in your best interest that they salvage out the car when it has frame damage. Many owner here on Prime has been able to trade up with the insurance payout.

Sorry guys, I forgot that the US is lawsuit heaven, In NZ you cant sue anyone for anything. The judge just laughs and covers the court costs, no huge payouts like in the US.

We have a thing called 'repair cert'. It means that a repair certifier (about 30 nationwide in NZ) will put his name against the repair and if any issues in the future he is liable, this makes the panel repairers do the job right or he will not sign it off. Air New Zealand engineers are the only alloy welders here that are certified for repair cert so its really safe and reassuring.

Good luck with your repairs, they dont look to bad at all compared to when mine was bent. Have posted some pics for your optical enjoyment.