Something I read

[Vancehu]

I just picked up some Curry Chicken over steam rice at a local Japanese restaurant, and I found a magazine with a small insert with 14 pages of “Farewell NSX” article, and guess what? Some valuable information regarding the new NSX was part of the article, sourced from an interview with Mr. Uehera, the project leader of the out going NSX and S2000. He is also heading the Neo NSX Project, and he disclosed some of the concept and progress of the Neo NSX. First off, I'm a Chinese guy with some decent Japanese reading background; therefore, I did my best to interpret the article, and my English is not too hot either, so don't make fun of me. Imaging translate from Japanese to Chinese to English… ERRRRR.

Check this out:

Target Weight: 1200kg to 1300kg (2650lbs to 2866 lbs) depending on the "Type" variation.
Example in the article: Ferrari F430 is 1460kg (3219lb)

Concept Considered: HSC with a improved and enlarged C32B Block; a 3.6 liter V6 which produced between 350 to 400PS depend on the tuning of the engine: Final phase of the HSC accomplished 0-60 in 4 seconds and ¼ mile in 12 seconds, which slot the car into 360 Modena and Porsche Turbo Cabrio territory. It was also the cheapest route Honda could have taken because little re-tooling is required. HSC chassis was a heavily modified NSX Chassis. Mr. Uehera would have been happy with the performance result of the HSC - if it was going to be built two years ago, but it was a good thing that they didn't, because the result would have ended like the original NSX, which will not fare well with the current competitors, and a V6 will not be welcome by the “press.” The introduction of the F430 proved his point. “The boss scrapped the HSC because he wanted more! Because it wasn't “stunning enough. The Original NSX was intended to compete with Porsche 911, Ferrari 328/348. However, after 15 years, 911 have surpassed the NSX in many areas, and Ferrari F430 is truly ahead of the NSX in almost every way; therefore, it's time to reset the standard.”

Target Power from two Prototype Engines:
Small V10: “Around” 3.5L over 400PS approaching 10,000RPM. This engine was considered during the first phase of development, but not a desired size, and could pose major reliability issues. However, if the target weight is not met, a reconsideration of reviving this size is a possibility, if additional power can be obtain without sacrificing reliability.
Large V10: “Around” 5.0L Approaching 500PS, this is a more likely choice - Requested by the current CEO.
Honda will have it as the “lightest” in its class with best power to weight ratio - As before.

Issues faced: It is rather easy to squeeze over 100hp/liter plus on 4 or 6 cylinder Engines; however, it is rather difficult to accomplish the same task on a large displacement, let's say, a 5 Liter engine. The problem is, a traditional V10 have series of vibration problems; therefore, to solve those problems and achieve “over” 100hp/liter (at the same time) will be a major challenge (That is why Ferrari stick with V8 and V12, and Gallardo's V10 will probably not last more than 60k miles without any major overhaul, and same can be said about BMW's M5/6's V10). "There were V10 prototypes built during the early 90's, when Honda was offered a deal to supply their detune but enlarged F1 Engine for the McLaren F1 road car project; however, the idea was deleted by the bearcats within the company, because they didn't understand the magnitude of that project. They were pushing to end the F1 Engine Program and to cut ties with McLaren International; therefore, the idea to supply Engine to McLaren never solidified. Imagine if the McLaren F1 had a Honda Engine...."

N/A Porsche 911 is no longer a targeted competitor, because the auto press has always prejudiced the V6 in the NSX, but somehow never bash 911's flat 6! F430 and Gallardo will be the main target, and perhaps those higher models such as Porsche GT and McLaren MB SLR Vision, because if you think about it, the performance between the F430 and SLR Vision is not too far apart, other than the top speed. “In order to compete with these cars, the HP rating will have to be over 500, and we have enough times to work out the bugs on the V10.” By the time the Neo NSX is ready for production, 500ps will be common between most of the manufactures.

Aerodynamically, the car needs to be able to sustain 200 miles per hour. Toyota is working on a 200mph car; therefore… The design of an ideal aerodynamic shape will take great amount of time; plenty of testing is required in order to meet that speed with great stability and safety. The approach of obtaining that speed will be genuine.

Uehera jokingly mentioned, “If the next generation NSX should last another 15 years production cycle. The car has to be a technological wonder; however, still allows major upgrades in order to compete with the future replacement of F430 and Gallardo.”

During the design process of the original NSX, exotics such as 328/348 and 911 all had “3 liter class” engines, because it was the standard in an Exotic (small block with high PS rating); however, the approach has changed through time. The only way to get more PS is to build bigger engines. Ferrari for example, redesigned the entire chassis on the 308/328 replacements to allowed bigger engines to be fitted. From 348 and on, the reversal of trunk and radiator location was the evident of this new approach. This method also shifted the weight distribution more to the rear. Unfortunately, the NSX was originally designed to meet the “3 liter class as well as the gentleman's rule of 280ps for the domestic market; also under the consideration was the domestic market taxation on engine size greater than 3.0 liter, which was much higher; those rules set gave the design team the base blueprint for the NA1 NSX.” It was a conservative move but left no room for expansion. However, the original package was ideal in a sense of performance during that time period, and the method of Carbon Reinforced Metal liner allowed us to temporary step up in the HP game. We had to hear complaints from JDM customers because the American model got 10 more PS on paper. “We all know Skyline GTR and NSX-R had more - way more, but we can't disclose it! There is only so much we can do to a production 3.2-liter engine. However, after the release of the new Honda Legend (aka Acura RL) - We broke the gentleman's rule, and the NSX will be our next offender.”

Again jokingly, “Ferrari lured most of our F1 Engineers to design engines for their F1 and road cars - After our (Honda) withdraw from F1 in 1992. Mr. Gato (Head of Honda V10 and V12 F1 Engine Program between 1988 to 1992) used to often called me from the Ferrari factory (where he was working) and telling me they really should slap a big H on the Ferrari's Engine Block and Ferrari F1 cars were powered by Honda.”

Since a “Large” V10 is the desired power plant, in order to offset the weight of the engine, construction Materials such as Aluminum and CF is a must - If the desire target weight is going to be met; the use of titanium is under consideration. It will help to meet the promised word of “break through.” However, the cost of manufacturing of titanium will be a major issue, because it is extremely difficult to work with. Even though the cost is not quite an issue, we will make a logical decision. “Same thing happen when we wanted an all aluminum chassis, and the cost of the manufacturing was enormous, but we did it anyway. We are considering how to implement titanium parts other than just the connecting rod.”

As for the SH-AWD, it is under consideration, but most likely be scrap due to the weight gain, and Mr. Uehera favors MR platform only - But may offer SH-AWD as an option if the market desires it.

Honda would like to win the F1 title before the premier of the new NSX, that is why the target release date is set “3 to 4” years from now. By then, Honda will have enough information on how to deal with the next generation of Italian Exotics. Last word from Uehera “When the CEO jokingly mentioned the V10 NSX will be faster than the new V8 F1 cars, he probably wasn't far off!).

As for the cost for the car - Honda will strategically place the car in the proper tier, just like the original NSX, little higher than standard 911, but lower than a Ferrari. Here is my interpretation from reading the article, a Ferrari F430 and Gallardo beater at Porsche Turbo price. After all, Honda does hope to sell more “New” NSX than the out going model - at a shorter time frame. However, they cannot predict the future, so we'll have to wait and see if the world economy can support this car, or any other car in this price tier…. The original approach of 25 cars a day and 6000 per year will not be part of the plan, because the goal wasn't realistic. After all, the purpose for the existence of NSX is not to make money, but to showcase what Honda can do. NSX is matter of company Pride - R&D cost will eventually filter down to other production cars.

Hint: The original contracts were signed with numerous parts suppliers to built 4 years worth of NSX @ 6000 cars per year, which was probably the reason why it took them 15 years to use up those contracted parts; after all, the fixed cost was paid before the car started production. The Honda NSX was way ahead of its time, that is why it is still a world class car, after 15 years of production.

[WealthBuildR]

Thanks for the great info. Can't wait for the new nsx!!

[Acura NsX Pilot]

Thank was greatly appreciated.

Finally some new news thats is new !

[gene '96 #178]

Awesome job on bringing us new, useful information.......
Quite the hook-up

[NUK3M]

Originally Posted by Vancehu

the purpose of this car is not to make money, but to showcase what Honda can do. NSX is matter of company Pride. the R&D cost will eventually filter down to other production cars.

this quote is for Liftshard.....






thanks for the info Vancehu.

[NSXGMS]

NUK3M Quote:this quote is for Liftshard.....

Originally Posted by liftshard

No CHICK who would be impressed by said car KNOWS NOR CARES what it is made of. What matters is the BADGE ON THE HOOD.

Originally Posted by liftshard

I have owned TWO NSXs. One of them is in my avatar. Honda should not have built the original NSX, as a business decision. Their bet failed.

some of my recent faves

[DutchBlackNsx]

Wow, that was an awsome read. Thank you very much.

Funny about the Ferrari engines, lmao.

[White92]

Wow! Thanks for the article. I hope everything in stated in that interview actually happens. I can't wait! Did the article have any pics or sketches by chance?

[Timbo]

Originally Posted by Vancehu

The problem is, a traditional V10 have series of vibration problem; therefore, to solve that problem and create over 100hp/liter (at the same time) will be a major challenge (that is why Ferrari stick with V8 and V12, and Gallardo's V10 will probably not last more than 60k miles without any major overhaul, and same can be said about BMW's M5/6's V10).

Is that true? I didn't know that. That would be a major strike against V10 cars in general. It would be quite the pisser, to buy a Gallardo over a 360 (or a Viper over a Z06, or M5 over some MB hotrod, etc) without knowing that.

If it's true, that is.

[liftcontrol]

reassuring and sensible new information.

It appears that the new NSX will be more than 100K but with incredible performance that should still make it look like a bargain.

I knew there was something fishy about a reliable Ferrari F1 car and thanks for clearing that up for us as well.

GO HONDA!!!!!

[liftshard]

Originally Posted by Timbo

Is that true? I didn't know that. That would be a major strike against V10 cars in general. It would be quite the pisser, to buy a Gallardo over a 360 (or a Viper over a Z06, or M5 over some MB hotrod, etc) without knowing that.

If it's true, that is.

Yes, it is true as far as vibrations. The banking of the V for an 8 or 12 vs a 10. Most V8s are banked at 90 degrees, and 12s should be at like 60. The number of cylinders divides evenly into the banking or 360/cylinders is a multiple of 15 or something. It has to do with the evenness of the firing order, in terms of balance. The 12 has 30 degrees in between each fire. This divides evenly into the banking. 8s have 45 degrees between each fire, this also divides evenly into 90 degrees. The 10 has to be banked differently and has different odd-ordered harmonics. 10s are inherently less smooth than 8s. 12s are the smoothest. These issues are why most V6s are 60 degrees banked. Banking helps the engine be more compact or fit into different spaces. The C block was a 90 degree 6, which is unusual, and it wouldn't have fit as well into more cars, which is why Honda's gone all J-block, the 60 degree V6.

V12s can be made without balance shafts and can be lighter and spin up much faster. I do not know why Honda is going w/ a V10. They should produce a 12. The 10 will be shorter, but I see an 8 or 12 as a better choice.

I'm sure there's an article on google about this. I remember this stuff from R&T back in the 1980s. There were no V10s back then and it was some eyebrow raising when the Viper came out.



As for the "purpose of the car" to showcase what Honda can do...uh...the bean counters are going to kill this dead. We've already learnt that nobody really DOES care, unless the knowhow ends up in a Ferrari engine.

I DO give Honda props for that.

[Zanardi 50]

Great info, thanks!
BTW, which Japanese magazine publication did you extract this article from? Was it BestCar?

[Vancehu]

Originally Posted by Zanardi 50

Great info, thanks!
BTW, which Japanese magazine publication did you extract this article from? Was it BestCar?

I don't remember the name of the magazine, in fact, the cover and the first few pages were torn off from it. I was surprised the insert was still in there.

Vance

PS. Honda will do what ever they want, built any car they like. They are now a finanacial super power in the auto industry, why wouldn't they have a super car to complete the selection line up. All they need now is, a full size truck and a giant SUV...lol

[MAJOR STONER]

Good stuff! Thanks!

[effer]

Thanks for sharing this article!

Originally Posted by Vancehu

First off, I'm a Chinese guy with some decent Japanese reading background; therefore, I did my best to interpret the article, and my English is not too hot either, so don't make fun of me. Imaging translate from Japanese to Chinese to English… ERRRRR.

You did a great job!!!

Originally Posted by Vancehu

Large V10: “around” 5.0L Approaching 500PS, a more likely choice, and requested by the current CEO.
Honda will have it as the “lightest” in its class with best power to weight ratio - Just like before.

This is it!

The vibration issue, with all their F1 expertise is certainly pretty well understood and mastered. I wouldn't stress with that...

Originally Posted by Vancehu

...because the auto press has always prejudiced the V6 in the NSX, but somehow never bash 911's flat 6!

Don't try to understand, the NSX was also discredited for being too civilized and not showing enough character, being too perfect for an exotic. A few years later, the same press was praising about the new 911 better and easier handling character !?!

With the Carrera GT and Cayman it finally took a very long time to Porsche to begin to admit the superiority of a midengine layout over their "famous" rear engine one. Will the 911 survive?

Originally Posted by Vancehu

Uhera jokingly mentioned, “If the next generation NSX should last another 15 years production cycle. The car has to be a technological wonder; however, still allows major upgrades in order to compete with the future replacement of F430 and Gallardo.”

Looks like Honda is awakening and learning from the NSX experience ( and maybe reading all our posts here in Prime ).

Originally Posted by Vancehu

Again jokingly, “Ferrari stole most of our F1 Engineers to design engines for their F1 and road cars engine program - after our (Honda) withdraw from F1 in 1992. Mr. Gato (Head of Honda V10 and V12 F1 Engine Program between 1988 to 1992) used to often called me from the Ferrari factory (where he was working) and telling me they really should slap a big H on the Ferrari's Engine Block and Ferrari F1 cars were powered by Honda.”

This is a great anecdote!

It's time now to separate men from kids! The Honda lesson time!

Originally Posted by Vancehu

Honda would like to win the F1 Title before the premier of the new NSX, that is why the target release date is set “3 to 4” years from now. Also with that dead line, Honda will know how the next generations of Ferraris and Lambo will have up on their sleeves. Last word from Uehera “When the CEO jokingly mentioned the V10 NSX will be faster than the new V8 F1 cars, he probably wasn't far off!).

That makes sense but there is nothing sure about winning a F1 title...

BTW F1 regulation changes: I just can't believe what they are doing by switching from 3,0L V10 from 2,4L V8... This is a nonsense...

As for going faster than new V8 F1 cars, well, those will at least produce over 750 hp ( instead of 960 hp ), does it mean the new NSX will have more power than that?

Certainly not, but approaching the 600 hp mark would be fantastic and more than dreamed.

Thanks again Vancehu!!!

Effer

By the way do you know ( or have an idea of ) the magazine's publication date?

[Vancehu]

Originally Posted by effer

By the way do you know ( or have an idea of ) the magazine's publication date?

I don't know, without the cover of the magazine, I didn't look for it, but it has to be pupblished after July of 05, because they had the NSX production count up June of 2005. I did however, done the unthinkable, I stole those pages... shame on me.


Vance

[isellpower]

Originally Posted by Timbo

Is that true? I didn't know that. That would be a major strike against V10 cars in general. It would be quite the pisser, to buy a Gallardo over a 360 (or a Viper over a Z06, or M5 over some MB hotrod, etc) without knowing that.

If it's true, that is.

Yeah, it's true. My 02 F350 V10 and the other 10 million of them running around with well over 100K tuff miles on them must be a fluke. Either his whole post is bs or he misread the article. I have 3 of them at my home building business and each of them is always hauling a 10,000 lb. piece of equip (including trailer). Change the oil about every 6K miles and only if I remember. The Dodge truck V10's are very reliable as are the Viper motors. I'm quite sure Audi didn't stick a 60K mile motor into the Gallardo. Did you guys know that Ilmore makes a 650 NA hp V10 Dodge motor for race boats?

[Vancehu]

Originally Posted by isellpower

Yeah, it's true. My 02 F350 V10 and the other 10 million of them running around with well over 100K tuff miles on them must be a fluke. Either his whole post is bs or he misread the article.

I have to agree with you on the reliablility of the Domestic V10's, but guess what? They are OHV, low out put engine, not high output DOHC engine. Unfortunately, people like to argue, and I'm up for that, but please get the fact straight. Every auto engineers on this planet knows about the challenge regarding issues with DOHC V10, that is why no mass produced DOHC V10 were selected for production car untill Gallardo. What Uehera said in the interview only confirmed what I heard back in 1988, when Honda introduced the prototype V10 F1 Engine, both Renult and Honda express the concern of amount of vibration the engine have created during developement process. As for the reliablity of the Gallardo and BMW, I haven't seen one with that kind of miles on it, so the concern by Uehera was most likely from engineering point of view. THERE IS A GOOD REASON WHY HONDA , BMW, AUDI, AND ANY OTHER NONE US AUTO MANUFACTURES WOULDN'T BUILD OHV ENGINES.... I do however, hope that GM, Ford, Dodge can built car with 8 OHV plus liter and only 550 hp will last... at least 100k miles... Do you really own a NSX?

Well, nice try, I challenge you to toss me more of your skeptism and your uneducated BS. I'm sure they will be off the subject like your last post! By the way, what does a boat engine have to do with anything? Obviously your OHV V10 Engines was doing the thinking for you... hahaha. Just to let you know, it took me 4 hours to translate the article, and I was quite confident with the accuracy before I posted it.

Vance

[ediddynsx]

good job go honda! ferrari powered by Honda! woo hoo! hehe
I love all exotics! =)

[AndyH]

good info. I really like the HSC design and they scraped it

[chinaboy]

the sals figure is worser than Lotus Esprit...(average 3XX unit per year)??

[Zanardi 50]

Originally Posted by Vancehu

The problem is, a traditional V10 have series of vibration problem; therefore, to solve that problem and create over 100hp/liter (at the same time) will be a major challenge (that is why Ferrari stick with V8 and V12, and Gallardo's V10 will probably not last more than 60k miles without any major overhaul, and same can be said about BMW's M5/6's V10).

Originally Posted by Timbo

Is that true? I didn't know that. That would be a major strike against V10 cars in general. It would be quite the pisser, to buy a Gallardo over a 360 (or a Viper over a Z06, or M5 over some MB hotrod, etc) without knowing that.

If it's true, that is.

http://www.autozine.org/technical_sc...mooth4.htm#V10


V8 engines

May I say all V8s are 90° ? really, I haven’t heard any non-90° V8. 90° is the only configuration achieving good balance for V8. However, there are two types of crankshaft arrangements, which delivers very different characters. They are cross-plane crankshaft and flat-plane crankshaft. Most of the world’s V8s are cross-plane V8, including all American V8s and all sedans’ V8s. However, the most exotic European sports cars, including Ferrari, Lotus and TVRs, employ flat-plane V8s.

Flat-plane V8 (left) and Cross-plane V8 (right)
Share the same crank pin

No matter which kind of V8s, they have 5 main bearings. A cylinder in bank A shares the same crank pin with the corresponding cylinder in bank B, therefore the crankshaft of V8 is actually simpler than V6. Both V8s generate no vibration in vertical, transverse directions or between bank and bank.

Cross-plane V8

However, for cross-plane V8s, there is vibration from end to end of the engine, this is because the first piston of bank A is not in the same position as the last piston of bank A (the same goes for bank B), unlike an inline-4 engine. No problem, the 90° V8 solves this problem by introducing an extra-heavy counter weight to every cylinder. The counter weight is heavy enough to balance the weight of crank throw, con-rod and piston of that cylinder, thus resulting in lack of vibration.

Now you must be wondering why such counter weight is not used in other kinds of engines. It is because this counter weight must be used in 90° V-type engines which have shared crank pins. It our previous study, you’ll find only V8 fulfills all these requirements. Why are there such requirements? good question. As you know, all engines have counter weights just enough to balance the weight of crank throws and part of the connecting rods, leaving the remaining weight of connecting rods and the whole, all-important pistons unbalanced. This is because the rotating counter weight can only balance rotating mass. Unluckily, the whole piston moves vertically rather than rotates about the crankshaft, while the CG of con-rod is somewhat rotating but also somewhat going up and down. If we insist to use heavy counter weight, it will cause side shake.
Considering the illustration. Assume the counter weight in vertical position is heavy enough to balance the crank throw, con-rod and pistons. When the crankshaft rotate 90°, the counter weight is repositioned to the right, but the piston doesn’t go to the left, and the con-rod just partially moves to the left. Only the crank pin moves completely to the left. Now you can see the system is not balanced. The counter weight will generate a net force towards the right.
However, for 90° V8, when such a heavy counter weight moves to the right, the piston from another bank will cancel it completely, because their movement are exactly opposed at this moment. (see illustrations below) The same result can be found for the counter weight moving to the left. Therefore 90° cross-plane V8 employs full-weight counter weights can achieve near perfect smoothness.





Flat-plane V8 for high performance cars

However, the disadvantage of cross-plane V8s is also about the counter weights - not only increase the weight of engine, they also contribute to rotational inertia, thus making the engine less responsive and less revvy, dropping upper rev limit and top-end power. Moreover, the larger counter weights usually requires a larger crankcase to house them, thus raising the height (and more important, center of gravity) of the enigne. Therefore Ferrari all V8 models, TVR Cerbera AJP V8 and Lotus Esprit V8 employ flat-plane V8s instead.

Flat-plane V8 is named according to the shape of the crankshaft, which is in a flat plane. It is very much like two inline-4 engines mated together. In particular, it achieves end-to-end balance because the first piston and last piston of a bank is exactly in the same position, so are the center two pistons. This is just the same as straight-four engines, therefore the sound of flat-plane V8 is usually somewhat like a pair of four-pot engines screaming simultaneously, unlike the rumble-bumble of cross-plane V8s.

As both banks run like an inline-4 engine, there is second-order vibration. For a 90° flat-plane V8, the sum of second-order force generated in the 2 banks is - by simple vector analysis - 1.41 times (root-2) of the force generated by each of the inline-4 it consists of. And the direction of vibration is left-right instead of top-down. In other words, while displacement increases 100% compare with the inline-4, the second-order vibration increases just 41%. That makes the flat-plane V8 more refined than an inline-4 although it is not as smooth and quiet as cross-plane V8.

To exotic sports cars, less refinement is not a big problem. Especially they usually employ short stroke and light weight pistons / con-rods, the second-order vibration is greatly reduced.

V10 engines

Theoretically, the best V-angle is 72°. Like two inline-5 mated together, there is no vibration in vertical and transverse directions, but there is vibration from end to end of the engine, thus require a balancer shaft install in the V-valley for best balance. However, there is no vibration between bank and bank because pistons in both banks are in the same positions.

[SpeedAddict]

Originally Posted by liftshard

As for the "purpose of the car" to showcase what Honda can do...uh...the bean counters are going to kill this dead. We've already learnt that nobody really DOES care, unless the knowhow ends up in a Ferrari engine.

I DO give Honda props for that.

I think that having the NSX as a halo car and having it acknowledge as the world's only Japanese supercar payed off mucho in terms of giving the proverbial middle finger to Toyota. Face within the Japanese market you know...

Also, You forgot the last line of the quote above.

R&D cost will eventually filter down to other production cars.

I think that vtech did help sell a lot of civics to the ricer crowd.

[Vancehu]

The original Honda F1 V10's from 89 and 90 were 72 degree V.

Vance

By the way, there are already attacks from all directions even on the S2k Forum... I'm going down to Kinkos to scan some of the pages so you guys can check it out... I guess that will solve some of the skepticism.

Vance

[NeoNSX]

Originally Posted by Vancehu

Mr. Uehera ... is also heading the Neo NSX Project, and he disclosed some of the concept and progress of the Neo NSX.

This is very exciting news. If they call it the "Neo NSX" project, does this mean I can sue for naming infringement? (or better, i get two Neo NSX's for free. )



Great post. thanks for taking the time to translate. Really outlines what we've all been speculating over the HSC for the past 12mths.