Meth injection set up

[Dang94]

Hi guy's,
I would like to know you guy's thoughts on running a meth injection set up on my nsx.
I have a 3.L forced induction SOS built engine with low comp pistons and i'm currently running a Laminova after cooler core at 8 psi boost.
The Laminova started leaking, so i'm looking for another cooling option.
I have purchased a Driving ambition after cooler replacement core, but now i'm thinking that running meth injection would be better.
I mainly use my car for street use because I've been worried about creating high intake temps and this has stopped me from tracking my car.
Please feel free to list the pro's and con's.

 

[jwmelvin]

First, make sure you read the prior discussions.

Regan (@RYU) is one of our leading proponents and uses the A.S. Motorsports phenolic plate to spray after the blower. He discusses the setup at various points in his build thread. He started a discussion a few years ago in this thread.

Here is some info on what and how to spray.
[MENTION=26108]Blacknot[/MENTION] also discussed his spray setup a bit, here.

I put a couple pictures of my crude setup here.

As far as a heat-exchanger goes, I know you have one but I figure some links won't hurt: DA's design; DA's dyno; SOS Laminova setup; comparison of SOS vs. DA; another comparison.

I'd like to switch to spraying after the blower. I like A.S.'s design pretty well and think that is what I would use.

Spraying vs. heat exchanging (and spraying water versus meth-water)?

spray > aftercooler
* lower weight
* reduced height of blower
* easier to integrate (tank and pump may be in front compartment or in trunk)

aftercooler > spray
* consistent over longer time (water can run out)
* charge-air distribution (spray may be inhomogeneous)
* no control system required

meth-water spray > water spray
* improved detonation/knock robustness
* required for subfreezing ambient temps

water spray > meth-water spray
* less effect on tune (thus less consequence of losing spray from blockage or exhausting the supply)
* better cooling

Those are, of course, just my thoughts at first blush. Based on what I have seen, either can sufficiently reduce temps. For street driving, you won't go through much spray, so it lasts a long time. On track, as long as one sprays after the blower, it seems that the tank holds enough for a typical ~20-30 min session. Since both systems involve incompressible fluid, either could have catastrophic consequences of a leak. -jason

 

[Dang94]

Thank you so much Jason for your detailed post.
I really appreciate it.
It was RYU's set up that has inspired me to go down this road.
I'm looking at the AS Motorsports phelonic plate, but i cant afford to raise my SC the 3 inches to accommodate the phelonic plate and the DA core.
I was that impressed with RYU's meth injection video, and i think i will go down that road.
In addition, i'm thinking of adding the AEM water/meth failsafe guage for added protection.

Just to be sure, Will water/meth injection with the AS motorsports phelonic plate cool the intake air temps more than the DA aftercooler core?

 

[RYU]

it's also important to keep in mind most aftercooler setups i'm aware of has a tendency to lower boost pressure due to the restriction of airflow. so factor that into your decision.

It's all pros/cons. The big con for the meth injection is sytem, to me, is the refilling.

Also note.. The BMW M4 Competition and the 991.2 GT2 RS both use some type of liquid injection - distilled water. So this isn't some new unproven technology. Distilled water creates the best cooling but I use the 50/50 mix for the added octane insurance.

good luck in your setup! I like the DA intercooler but I like the simplicity and effectiveness of the liquid injection with all things considered for the NSX. In another vehicle and another application I might choose a heat exchanger like the Corvettes and Dodges.

 

[jwmelvin]

Will water/meth injection with the AS motorsports phelonic plate cool the intake air temps more than the DA aftercooler core?

I’m not clear that many people could answer this question. I’d like to see data though.

 

[RYU]

I’m not clear that many people could answer this question. I’d like to see data though.

Same here. It's such a big window of variability.

I can definitively say that at my current tune my IATs never get above 130's F on the streets and gets down to about 88-100F IATs at the track. I think I mentioned on the video i'm also using the smallest possible nozzle I could find (size: CM2 at Coolmist.com). Since it's a boost dependent controller it's pretty neat how inherently when you're not hard on the motor you use the least amount of liquid. I haven't tried pure distilled water in a long time. I probably should again. I don't recall if I ever recorded a significant temp variance between the two mediums.

I'm pretty sure someone uploaded data from an aftercooled setup here on prime somewhere. I believe it as an IAT plot with a dyno curve somewhere. However, this doesn't tell us how the IAT reacts upon long duration pulls or under heavy driving conditions. That's the scenario of the biggest concern for me.

In a liquid injection setup, the harder you drive the cooler it gets. Assuming your setup was properly dialed in.

 

[Dang94]

it's also important to keep in mind most aftercooler setups i'm aware of has a tendency to lower boost pressure due to the restriction of airflow. so factor that into your decision.

It's all pros/cons. The big con for the meth injection is sytem, to me, is the refilling.

Also note.. The BMW M4 Competition and the 991.2 GT2 RS both use some type of liquid injection - distilled water. So this isn't some new unproven technology. Distilled water creates the best cooling but I use the 50/50 mix for the added octane insurance.

good luck in your setup! I like the DA intercooler but I like the simplicity and effectiveness of the liquid injection with all things considered for the NSX. In another vehicle and another application I might choose a heat exchanger like the Corvettes and Dodges.

I agree with you RYU, it seems the most effective way to cool the IAT's.
I'm after a cooling set up that can at least handle a hot lap then a cool down lap and then go again.
Maybe i should just go with the DA core and monitor my IAT's with a gauge (since i've already bought the core) and see how it handles it.
After then i could try the water/meth set up and compare.
Regarding boost restriction, It's easy to see how the DA aftercooler is less restrictive than the Laminova core.you can visually see through the core unlike the Laminova.
And according to batman's who ran both and dyno tuned both systems with Shad, The DA produced more boost and HP with the same set up.
I will be running 9 psi with a SOS forced induction 3.0L engine, so 400 whp should'nt be an issue.
And i'm running 98 octane premium gas that's available here in Australia.
(I can't understand why 98 octane is not available in the world's biggest economy????)

Can anyone who's tracked the DA Aftercooler with a high boost SC set up give some feedback on temps?

 

[jwmelvin]

(I can't understand why 98 octane is not available in the world's biggest economy????)

You use RON to quantify octane, right? So 98 RON is equivalent to 93 AKI (the system used in the US, which is the average of RON and MON). That’s what pumps around here have (California has only 91 AKI as far as I know).

 

[Dang94]

You use RON to quantify octane, right? So 98 RON is equivalent to 93 AKI (the system used in the US, which is the average of RON and MON). That’s what pumps around here have (California has only 91 AKI as far as I know).

Ahh, sorry, That's what's confused me.