what are the limits of the 440cc injectors? will it handle 450whp? or are 550cc necessary? im talking on boosted setups of course
440cc injectors... max power?
- Thread starter NSXRguy
- Start date
Assuming 15% parasitic/drivetrain losses, 450 wHP = 530 engine HP.
RC Engineering's calculator says you will need 700 cc injectors.
RC Engineering's calculator says you will need 700 cc injectors.
- Joined
- 10 August 2010
- Messages
- 633
My fuel demand app agrees with RC, and L_RAO. Just not the right set of injectors for 450whp. I'm sure someone somewhere has done it with enough fuel pressure but a set of 660's or higher would be advisable. IMO ID1000's are not a bad choice even at this power level to give you some room to grow or run E85.
http://webpages.charter.net/hybrdthry911/fuel/fuel_pump_web_app.htm
I think ID1000s are a great option for most of the FI'd NSXs out there. Their spray pattern works well with the wider-than-tall intake ports of the NSX.
Somehow I manage to run 436 whp on the 440 Wil supplies. Now I'm no tuner, nor an engineer. I will just tell you what Bisi told me, that my dyno shows I was fine at that level. Specifically, on his dyno, I was at 9.3 psi making 436.7 whp on 91 pump gas. Also, on the dyno at church automotive, we were messing with the mbc and one run I was at 452 whp. I have no idea how I managed that. They did say at that level I was running out of fuel at 7600 rpm, and to not do highway pulls in 5th or 6th gear.
Currently, I have removed the fuel resistor (possibly explaining how I can sustain 436 whp) and Bisi tells me at that level of 9 psi my car looks solid, though he did recommend meth injection ( one more thing to worry about going wrong if it fails so I opted out of getting it).
Now I will say I DO NOT track the car. My pulls are only briefly. I have too many tickets to do any sort of 5th or 6 th gear pulls. For my driving style, I am very very happy at the level I'm at now.
Currently, I have removed the fuel resistor (possibly explaining how I can sustain 436 whp) and Bisi tells me at that level of 9 psi my car looks solid, though he did recommend meth injection ( one more thing to worry about going wrong if it fails so I opted out of getting it).
Now I will say I DO NOT track the car. My pulls are only briefly. I have too many tickets to do any sort of 5th or 6 th gear pulls. For my driving style, I am very very happy at the level I'm at now.
SuperSonic: Church's dyno has a reputation for reading higher than others.
They said you were "fine", but also that "you were running out of fuel at 7600 RPM". Sounds like you have no idea what your AFRs are, nor what your injector duty cycles are at (but I'll bet they're close to maxed out).
If I were FI'd, I'd err on the side of caution, rather than happy-go-lucky.
They said you were "fine", but also that "you were running out of fuel at 7600 RPM". Sounds like you have no idea what your AFRs are, nor what your injector duty cycles are at (but I'll bet they're close to maxed out).
If I were FI'd, I'd err on the side of caution, rather than happy-go-lucky.
Maybe I phrased it wrong or you read it wrong. In churches Dyno AT 450 WHP I was running out of gas. We managed to get it down to 438 whp and I was fine. Took to Bisi and ran 436, not much off of what church said ( must have gotten a new Dyno since 2 hp could be weather changes). Bisi said I looked fine, my boost gauge shows 9 psi (9.3 on his machine) and my a/f was between 10.2-10.8 so yes, I know my a/f. At that rate of hp, the injectors probably are maxed out. I thought this could be bad, but look at comptech, they manage to use the oem injectors and crank well over max safely and constantly, so I think the occasional boost won't hurt.
I do not know what you mean by "well over max"
You cannot look at comptech, they are using a RRFPR, this increases the fuel pressure to create more fuel flow, the injector P/W is not being altered - totally different principle.
Also remember that the majority of CTSC owners are running 5-6 PSI - just like mine, this is much easier to tune and provides more margin for error than higher boost levels.
As long as you have an AFR meter and watch it...
Back on topic, the 440cc injectors are ususally maxxed out around 400whp - depending on the dyno.
- Joined
- 10 August 2010
- Messages
- 633
I've always thought church's dyno read very high compared to trap speeds on cars that I've seen as well. Low 10's AFR is way to rich of a mixture, and could lead to washing down the cylinder walls, which is surprising considering you have only 440cc injectors at 430+whp. Do you have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator? If so what is your base pressure?
I'm not sure what you mean by you removed the fuel resistor? Do you mean the resistor box?
Last edited:
I think he means fuel pump resister box. 10.8 afr is not that bad, that's what most turbo car tune from factory but I would run around 11.5-11.8 afr. I really don't think u can make 436 whp with 10.8 afr on 440cc injectors unless u run really high fuel pressure.
10.2-10.8 is RICH, even for an FI car.
There's probably 25 wHP alone in just the tuning. What are you using (FIC, EMS , ???)?
There's probably 25 wHP alone in just the tuning. What are you using (FIC, EMS , ???)?
I am only expecting about 350hp with my sc and will be using RC550's.
Mike
Mike
It is quite rich lol. But with the injectors, and no meth, Bisi is a very conservative tuner. If I ask him to go leaner he will. But 20 hp at the risk of something else going wrong isn't worth it. From 390 to 415 hp on a stock motor, sure. But already hitting almost 440 then going to 465 on a stock motor with 440's, that's asking for it.
I can put the dyno sheets up here is no one believes me. I am running with the fuel resistor box off, maybe aftermarket fuel pump but not sure, and 440's and running 10.4 or so. It's possible, I know cause I'm doing it. Both tuners have said the car is remarkable good in the dynos. ......it's as if it was built from the factory knowing it would go turbo.
The ecu is running of just an aem fic. I know it's rich. After the last retune Bisi adjusted for my new 02 sensors. Immediately after the a/f is more constant at 14.5-15.1, but when I shift it usually pops here and there. Maybe there is more fuel soaking in the heat wrapped insides of the exhaust can and blowing flames when I shift lol.
There is no definite number that is available. As the VE (volumetric efficiency) of every motor is different it is totally up to the tuner to ensure that he get the most out of your motor and to do it safely. That is why you must spend the money with a reputable tuner and let him know what your specific goals are. That being said from what I have noticed with the NSX is 300cc inj = 300whp max. 440 cc inj = 440whp max. 660cc inj = 604 whp max. These are max numbers that I have observed with meth inj used as a fuel and cooling agent and are no way intended to be used as a baseline or guideline. These numbers are the numbers that I have made with my NSX and with inj. duty cycle running at 95% and running 45lbs of base fuel pressure and a 1:1 rising rate fpr. I am sure others can do better or worse but those are my numbers based on my experiences. Good luck and keep your eye on your a/f gauge. Enjoy.:biggrin:
I can tell you my Angus setup w/ 440's and 7.5psi 67mm, was tuned RICH through the midrange and at redline. Like 10.5-11.2 at max rpm. I don't the know the midrange AFR but I'm guessing it was equally as fat. My AEM FIC went loony and I had the car retuned in Orland at CFT after about a year.
One thing the tuner told me is that throughout the midrange, you can tune the car leaner, like 13ish. My redline afr's are in the 11.5-11.8 range. I can tell you that my motor "seems" happier being leaned out of the 10's into the mid 11's.
My retune was done on a Mustang dyno which reads low. My HP stayed the same 400-405 but my torque picked up like 20-30ftlbs from 5k-8k just by proper tuning. I'm now approaching 2 years with my angus setup and about 11k miles. All I can tell you is, IT'S FUN!!!!!!!!
One thing the tuner told me is that throughout the midrange, you can tune the car leaner, like 13ish. My redline afr's are in the 11.5-11.8 range. I can tell you that my motor "seems" happier being leaned out of the 10's into the mid 11's.
My retune was done on a Mustang dyno which reads low. My HP stayed the same 400-405 but my torque picked up like 20-30ftlbs from 5k-8k just by proper tuning. I'm now approaching 2 years with my angus setup and about 11k miles. All I can tell you is, IT'S FUN!!!!!!!!
^^^ I'm just glad the car runs now.... Almost lol. Check light came on at start up about secondary air pump. It's just the tune I think too rich at start up, but I'll say 9 psi vs 7, you can feel that extra. And it scares me lol.
Similar threads
