600-700 H.p.?

[4AU4LIFE]

I have been talking with a fellow NSX owner about different types of forced induction systems for a while now.
He has chosen the route of going twin turbo. He is planning on using Aerodyne unit and pushing roughly 20 psi.
Also using a 'special' clutch made of ceramic to hold the power.
He currently has and will continue to run a 75+ wet shot of NOS.

(1)My main question is can a NSX block handle that?
(2)He plans on running an AEM ECU that they are making special for his car that takes his mods into consideration. Will they do that?

The car is to be a streetable car.

 

[sjs]

Well, Ill offer what little I know. It could be tough to supply 20psi the Aerodynes without cooking them. The “standard” ones as delivered with the Bell kit run out of steam on a 3.0 at 8 psi or less, and to push them harder is unwise. As I recall, the largest units that will fit the old Bell kit will support more like 12-14, in theory. They do (did?) have a totally different model that would require all new "plumbing", and I suppose it might be available in a trim that would make 20psi on an NSX. If that's what he has then I'm very interested to see his project because I would like to do the same.

I'll leave it to others to answer about the block, but with very little searching you will find it much discussed recently.

I can't image what he means about the AEM. It is fully programmable with a myriad of additional inputs/outputs. Perhaps they will just help by supplying a base map different than stock to get him started? Or perhaps he needs it to support some kind of input or output that it doesn't have. Hard to say, but I'm sure they'll do what they can for the right price!

 

[4AU4LIFE]

Well the way it was explained to me is that all the problems that people are having with any type of FI can be solved by using the AEM system. I then stated that from what I understood that the system doesn't have all the bugs worked out of it. The response I got 'Well you just have to know the right people'. Ok, I don't know anybody so if I want one that works i'm SOL?
This very seems pretty smart and gives the initial impression to know what he is talking about but I really questioned those statements.

 

[sjs]

It sounds to me like your friend is just trying to impress you. The AEM is nice in that it comes pre-wired for the NSX harness and is supplied with a base configuration file that saves huge setup time for all the sensors and controls, as well as stock fuel maps that are easily scaled so you can at least get the car started to begin tuning. Those, and a very attractive price, are the reasons I bought one.

His claim that it has the potential to solve/prevent many of the most common problems with early forced induction NSXs is not untrue. But the same can be said of any of the good ECUs out there. The AEM doesn't have anything revolutionary not found on at least several other stand-alone ECUs. As you may have noticed, I've been pressing for more information about possible bugs. Hopefully the latest software will resolve any that really exist.

As for needing to know someone, that's BS. The minute AEM figures out a fix for a problem they'll make it available. They have nothing to gain and everything to lose by holding back.

So I don't think you're SOL, but you will need an experienced tuner for whatever approach you choose.

 

[Black&Tan97Tnewportbeach]

All you have to do to solve the "early forced induction problems" is give it the right amount of fuel and give it a spark at the right time. Thats what standalones are for.

 

[nsxlover]

I think a built block can handle that kind of HP, however the axles and transmission will not. There is a nsx owner that tried that much power and broke 3 axles and messed up the trans.

I have the larger aerodynes and they puss out past 10 psi. My hp curve is very flat after 5500 RPM's. If he can get 20 psi out of aerodynes I would be interested in hearing about it as I would love to do that. I am not saying he can't do it, I just would like to know how so I can do the same.

Cartech does have a new upgrade kit that is going to be released soon. This kit uses T 28 turbo's. They claim that that can run 20psi, however they are very small turbo's also. I would be more interested in a t3/4 conversion.

If this kit turns out to be not what I want, I am going to buy Gerry's kit this winter. I know that kit is good to 20psi. I am waiting for Mike Montgomery to call me back next week for an update.

Rob

 

[sjs]

...Cartech does have a new upgrade kit that is going to be released soon. This kit uses T 28 turbo's. They claim that that can run 20psi, however they are very small turbo's also. I would be more interested in a t3/4 conversion.
Rob

That "upgrade" was originally started for several reason including to address the possibility that Aerodyne would go out of business leaving Bell TT owners in a bind. However, it seems to me that the results are probably not worth the effort. The big benefits of the Aerodynes are variable vane technology for quicker response, and that they are self-contained requiring no pluming for water or oil. Going to dual conventional turbos means no variable vanes plus nearly double the plumbing of a single turbo. By that point I think it would be cleaner, simpler and just as effective to go with a properly designed single, and probably not any more expensive even if it hurts to toss all that original hardware.

 

[Cartech Preston]

That "upgrade" was originally started for several reason including to address the possibility that Aerodyne would go out of business leaving Bell TT owners in a bind. However, it seems to me that the results are probably not worth the effort. The big benefits of the Aerodynes are variable vane technology for quicker response, and that they are self-contained requiring no pluming for water or oil. Going to dual conventional turbos means no variable vanes plus nearly double the plumbing of a single turbo. By that point I think it would be cleaner, simpler and just as effective to go with a properly designed single, and probably not any more expensive even if it hurts to toss all that original hardware.

As it turned out, the redesign was really the right thing to do, eventhough a lot more challenging than planned (mostly due to little problems). Believe it or not two T28's are about 350 RPM slower than the Aerodyne's which still don't seem to be available. I guess I would be curious also as to which series turbo was intended and how they were going to get ahold of the units. For that 350 RPM, the user gains airflow capacity to 475 BHP and psi capacity to 20psi. It's quite easy to put a T3 compressor section on the T28 turbine section and expand the envelope further.

I guess I wouldn't really agree the results were not worth the effort, despite the hurdles. Besides, we did all the work anyway. Going with a single or twins doesn't generally show a performance difference, assuming each was matched for the aplication. Response isn't an issue either. Packaging usually is and that is a very tight commodity in the NSX. As you say, if you want ot get rid of stuff, then it's easier to fit a single. Our goals were for a car that could be completely returned to stock (i.e. no permanent mods). Lots of improvements to the old system have been made along the way. We are pretty much there.

 

[4AU4LIFE]

Are those units(Aerodyne) only sold in pairs for our application or can you get a single system?

 

[Cartech Preston]

We no longer use Aerodyne units. As far as I know, they are not available any longer. Granted, when we decided to make the switch, I stopped paying attention to what Aerodyne was doing.

Are those units(Aerodyne) only sold in pairs for our application or can you get a single system?

 

[ncdogdoc]

Are those units(Aerodyne) only sold in pairs for our application or can you get a single system?

Aerodyne has said they will restart aftermarket production "someday", but I really doubt it.

 

[ncdogdoc]

As it turned out, the redesign was really the right thing to do, eventhough a lot more challenging than planned (mostly due to little problems). Believe it or not two T28's are about 350 RPM slower than the Aerodyne's which still don't seem to be available. I guess I would be curious also as to which series turbo was intended and how they were going to get ahold of the units. For that 350 RPM, the user gains airflow capacity to 475 BHP and psi capacity to 20psi. It's quite easy to put a T3 compressor section on the T28 turbine section and expand the envelope further.

Not realizing where this thread had gone, I emailed Cartech a few days ago to ask about the upgrade, as I have a Bell TT system and three dead Aerodynes. (I was quoted $1500 apiece or more to repair the units by "TurboDoc"). This is the total correspondence so far: (in reverse chronological order)

Gary,

We are using a stianless muffler from Maxflow. I am not really familiar with Taitec's stright pipes but I have seen their mufflers. We had to make changes to the connecting pipes for the muffler and for the mid pipes from the cats to the turbine inlets. The list of parts chages between the two kits is essentially all the parts I listed that we would need for you to send in. We can use the new tooling to convert your pieces. We will have some pictures available shortly. The kit is the same for OBDI and OBDII. The only difference between the two is that the OBDI uses an AEM computer and the OBDII uses a Rebic IV w/ additional injectors.

Preston

-----Original Message-----
From: Yellow Dog Racing [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 1:11 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Bell Twin turbo kit for the NSX

Preston,

Thanks for the info. I should have checked into NSXPrime before sending the email!!! I am potentially very interested. As far as the muffler goes, what changes are you making. I presently use Taitec straight pipes (Dream 28) for weight savings (only 12#) and may go to a Borla single exit system similar to Real Time Racing. Plus do you have any pictures, and a list of replacement parts. Plus, do you have different setups for early vs. late models due to OBDII.

Gary Yates
Yellow Dog Racing
If you ain't the lead DOG, the view never changes!

----- Original Message -----
From: Preston Marshall
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 9:21 PM
Subject: RE: Bell Twin turbo kit for the NSX


Gary,

Mike forwarded your message. The fabrication work is complete. If you would like to update your parts we can arrange for you to send them in. Two new T28's would also be included. To update the kit you have, we wold need your intercooler, muffler, turbo inlets and intercoolers. Conversion costs are $3,000. If you would like all new parts sent to you instead, we can do that as well.

Let me know if we can be of further assistence.

Regards,

Preston


-----Original Message-----
From: Yellow Dog Racing [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 6:22
To: [email protected]
Subject: Bell Twin turbo kit for the NSX

Hi Mike,

My name is Gary Yates. I have a Bell Twin turbo kit for the NSX with bad Aerodyne turbos. I was wondering if you have made any progress on your kit with replacement turbos, or alterations to the Aerodynes? I am developing a track only car, and have several options for FI, but would like to try the turbo setup along with a Basch Boost(which I also have). Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Gary Yates
Yellow Dog Racing