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A/C Compressor replace with a 94 or newer?

The refrigerant is pretty much a non-issue. Yes, the seals are different because the R-134a molecule is much smaller, but existing oil impregnated o-rings seem to have no problem. AFAIK there is no upgraded vanes to compensate for the higher pressures that R-134a puts out. So for all intents and purposes the R12 parts work just fine with R-134a.

Just make sure your shop is buying a quality JP re/made part. An Even Bigger Project will be to clear Black Death from your A/C system in the event of an internal failure; do you do not want this at all.

I recommend you keep your OEM compressor and clutch just in case there is an issue. At least have them extract the pulley and hookups if space is an issue. The compressor is quite simple to rebuild yourself depending on the type of failure.

I rarely overrule boots on the ground. My only issue is that generally used OEM is often superior to new aftermarket.

So you'd go with the 1991 OEM Fitment/R12 Denso 471-1421 and have the AC repair guy just do an oil change to make it work with the R134? He suggests this so that I get a new clutch and not re-use my old clutch

Or go with the 1994+ Denso 471-1994 that is already R134 rated, and re-use my existing pulley?
 
So only the 1991 comes with a new clutch? And the 1994 doesn't? The clutches should be the same spec...is there a price difference?

There should be green seals on the 1994+, and not the black ones.

Also replacing ONLY the clutch in vehicle is not a huge job.
 
So only the 1991 comes with a new clutch? And the 1994 doesn't? The clutches should be the same spec...is there a price difference?

There should be green seals on the 1994+, and not the black ones.

Also replacing ONLY the clutch in vehicle is not a huge job.
Apparently the pulley is smaller for the 1991 than the 1994. So I'd have to reuse my old pulley (does that also mean reuse the entire clutch??)
If I buy the newer compressor.
Or just get 1991 R12 spec compressor and pulley and change oil to use r134?

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
 
>Apparently the pulley is smaller for the 1991 than the 1994.

I'm having a hard time with this one. I don't know, but I don't think the size difference would be appreciable.

The belt p/n: 38920-PR7-A01 is 38920-PR7-A02, which both translate into 4PK975 (4 rib, 975mm length)

I'm calling the shop out: those two pulleys are effectively the same. In fact, Gates is stating their K040384 belt fits all years NSX.
 
>Apparently the pulley is smaller for the 1991 than the 1994.

I'm having a hard time with this one. I don't know, but I don't think the size difference would be appreciable.

The belt p/n: 38920-PR7-A01 is 38920-PR7-A02, which both translate into 4PK975 (4 rib, 975mm length)

I'm calling the shop out: those two pulleys are effectively the same. In fact, Gates is stating their K040384 belt fits all years NSX.
The shop didn't say the pulley was smaller, other posts on Prime mentioned this. If the pulley and the clutch on the 91 Denso is the same as the 94+ Denso, then it makes sense for me to just order the 94+ that's already R134 compliant.
My AC repair guy only said he doesn't suggest ordering one that would require changing the pulley and/or clutch as he doesn't think it makes sense to reuse my old clutch

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
 
>Apparently the pulley is smaller for the 1991 than the 1994.

I'm having a hard time with this one. I don't know, but I don't think the size difference would be appreciable.

The belt p/n: 38920-PR7-A01 is 38920-PR7-A02, which both translate into 4PK975 (4 rib, 975mm length)

I'm calling the shop out: those two pulleys are effectively the same. In fact, Gates is stating their K040384 belt fits all years NSX.

Wait a minute. I think I just realized, You're saying the pulley on the Denso 471-1424 (1991-1993 Size) and the Denso 471-1194 (1994+) are the same. Same pulley, same clutch, just the Freon compatibility (R12 vs R134) is the only difference between these 2 Compressors?

I ask because on Denso's website, the 471-1424 has a Clutch Maximum Diameter of 140mm https://www.densoproducts.com/product.aspx?zpid=10339
And the 471-1194 has a Clutch Maximum Diameter of 125MM https://www.densoproducts.com/product.aspx?zpid=10325
 
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The only effective difference between them is likely the color of the seals.

And a seal kit has to be only a few dollars.... and that really doesn't matter that much.
 
The only effective difference between them is likely the color of the seals.

And a seal kit has to be only a few dollars.... and that really doesn't matter that much.

Then it only makes sense to go with the 1994+ one as it's already R134. I wonder what that "Maximum Clutch Diameter" difference is. But if you say they're identical, I'll go with it.
 
no effective difference <> identical

So upon quick research: the diameter of the crank pulley is the same for all NSX's, the a/c belt idler pulley is also the same and the a/c drive belt is the same for all NSXs.

Conclusion: no effective difference in a/c compressor pulley size

(all = minor exceptions, Type R's, etc...)

more research: it appears the clutch pulley is only applicable to the NSX for the Honda line up. It is possible that your a/c shops supplier is substituting a similar spec one instead of the OEM spec one.
 
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RefrigerantPulley Dia.Pulley OffsetConnector
471-1194R134a125mm, too small91-96 specwrong
471-1193R134a140mm97+ specsame as OEM
471-1424R12140mm91-96 specsame as OEM

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You seemed to have posted the similar subjects in several places so hope this one is the main one.

Above spread sheet shows the difference of the Denso re-man compressor.

Please note that I never dealt with 1424 and the info is from Denso Autoparts website.

For 1193, the info is based on my real experience. In fact, I have one at my place at the moment.
For 1194, the info is based on my experience while supporting another owner installing it.


If ordering the OEM compressor, it DOES NOT include the CL set (pressure plate/pulley/field coil).
You need to order them separately or re-use your existing ones.
On the other hand, above Denso aftermarket one comes with the complete new CL set.




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Many people uses the word 'CL, Clutch' as an assy of clutch pressure plate/pulley/field coil.
For the clarification, I treat them as three different parts as per photo and refer them as pressure plate, pulley and field coil in this post.






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OEM P9K compressor.





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Denso 471-1193.

Extra info here; http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/entry.php?2321-Denso-Compressor-471-1193-4Seasons-Drier-33412-part-1




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Bracket difference.
The fixing bolt hole position on the Eng block is the same so both are interchangeable.
The bolt hole on the compressor body is the same for 10PA15C body.
97+ bracket shifts the entire compressor towards outwards, just a few mm.
In order to keep the same alignment against the a/c belt idle pulley and crank shaft pulley, the compressor pulley offset was changed for 97+.




Your system is already converted to R134a but there are so many options/approaches/combinations that you can take so I'll just cover the basic.
Please select or combine these options.


The most important thing is to keep the combination of the pulley offset and the bracket as a pair.



471-1194:
Must deal with the connector unless re-using your existing field coil.
Many just cuts off the one from the existing one.

Must deal with the pulley diameter.
Swap in your existing pressure plate/pulley/field coil as a set.

Or, swap in your existing pulley but use the new pressure plate and the field coil came with the new compressor.
Requires dealing with the connector.
Never tried by myself but based on another owner's experience.

Or, just replace the pressure plate and re-use existing pulley and field coil.
Never tried by myself.



471-1193:
Must deal with the pulley offset.
Replace the mounting bracket on the eng block to the 97+ spec.
If using aftermarket header, you may need removing the front header first before removing the bracket.

Or, swap in your existing pressure/plate/pulley/field coil as a set.
Basically, just using the new compressor body and re-using the rest.
You can keep or sell the new pressure plate/pulley/field coil that came with the new compressor.



471-1424:
Must drain as much mineral oil as possible from the new compressor.
Kind of waste and any left-over stays inside the system as another debris.
It won't travel through the system and just stays at the lower section.



I normally recommend the owners to go for the 471-1193 and either just swap in the existing pressure plate/pulley/field coil from the old compressor or install the 97+ mounting bracket and use the whole new compressor as it is.



These are just some options you can take and there are many other options including combining some of the above points.

You can also consider just buying new or used pressure plate/pulley/field coil to suit your demand.


Kaz
 
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Kaz

Verify: the 140mm pulley won't clear with a 91-96 bracket?

Is the bearing replaceable on the clutch? appears to be a simple press in/out...

Is Ester oil recommended?
 

.....


These are just some options you can take and there are many other options including combining some of the above points.

You can also consider just buying new or used pressure plate/pulley/field coil to suit your demand.


Kaz


Thank you for all of this invaluable and amazing info. Is it safe to assume that all of your comparisons and potential need to change parts out is based on putting the new compressor into a 1991 NSX?
Thanks
 
Yes, but only with the R134a OEM new or overhauled compressor (body only, OEM doesn't come with the CL set) as part of retro-fit.
This means that the CL set (pressure plate/pulley/field coil) was either re-used from the existing one or OEM used set came as part of the overhauled compressor.

Based on what you wrote here and possibly on FB group, apology in advance if you already knew this but may I recommend considering the compressor and the CL set separately?

For example, OEM P9K compressor is used on many Honda/Acura models and it's also used on different make/models.
It's just the CL set difference.

From outside, regardless of R12 or R134a, the mounting hole geometry is the same between P9K and all three aftermarket ones in my above spreadsheet.
It's just the same 10PA15C type.


Same story goes for the CL set.
You can find the same CL set of NSX on different make/models.
That's what the owner did when he bought the 1194 by mistake.

His NSX is 97+ model so requires the CL set with 97+ offset but 1194 comes with 91-96 offset.
He got the 97+ one by buying the used compressor + CL set from one of the Toyota model.


I can see the point on what the A/C specialist mentioned about the very old and worn CL set.
I was on the same boat when I carried out the A/C refresh on my NSX.

At that time, I used OEM P9K compressor and wanted to replace the CL set to 97+ spec together with the 97+ bracket.
Unfortunately, due to back ordered parts, aftermarket header and available free time, I had no option but to re-use my 22 years old - 152K miles CL set.
That's the photo in the above post.


There must be a reason for replacing the compressor and it involves so many other tasks/parts/factors.

You just need to discuss with your A/C specialist and figure out the best option and balance the cost.
Depending on how far you want to go, A/C service could result in mega-expensive project.

I was fortunate enough to only top up the refrigerant once over 22 years (surprisingly) but I think it triggered the puncture of the evaporator forcing me to take the dashboard out for the A/C Refresh.

Good luck with the A/C service.



Kaz

Verify: the 140mm pulley won't clear with a 91-96 bracket?

Is the bearing replaceable on the clutch? appears to be a simple press in/out...

Is Ester oil recommended?
Hi, drew.

You want to stay with the 140mm pulley.
AT model has larger diameter crank pulley (not the a/c compressor one) so the ACG and the A/C compressor would be always spinning at higher speed at any Eng rpm than MT model.
Thus, there is some safety margin on the compressor side but not sure of the durability if 125mm was used.

Probably you are not familiar with the subject of offset at the mounting bracket and the pulley?

Hope these photos show you the difference.


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The blue line is where the A/C idler pulley bracket sits so this geometry is the same between the two brackets.

The fixing hole geometry to the Eng block is also the same.

As you can see, the 97+ bracket will shift the entire [compressor + CL set] outwards, towards the Rear Right tyre for about 8mm.

At the same time, to install the A/C belt, you need to keep the alignment of the crank pulley/idler pulley/AC pulley in line.

Therefore, with 97+ bracket, you need to shift the AC pulley the other way round.
It will sit much closer to the compressor body to compensate the increased offset compared to the 91-96 version.




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So, you must keep the combination of the bracket and the pulley as a set, just like above photo.

91-96 bracket for 91-96 pulley (sits away from compressor body) and the same goes for the 97+ of which the pulley sits really close to the compressor body.



Good point about the bearing.
I think it's possible but never done.
In fact, unlike the bearing at the A/C idler pulley, never felt any rattle.




Regarding the POE....
While I understand the benefit of POE, for Denso compressor that came with ND-OIL8, I would stay with the OIL8.
That's what I was recommended by my trusted compressor overhaul place in Japan.

With modern hybrid car with electrical compressor in use, it would specify the POE use for safety and design requirement.
It also benefits from no shaft being exposed to the atmosphere.

On the other hand, the classic compressor has high speed shaft spinning with the seal around it, just like the Eng WP.
Inevitably, the oil can seep over the years and also it could get in contact with the atmosphere/moisture.
ND-OIL8 has advantage in this area among other ordinary PAG oil.

The latest POE seemed to be very good and reliable ones are quite expensive.
Some aftermarket product companies are selling POE based so called 'A/C treatment, additive', just like lots of Eng oil additive on the market.

When POE was first introduced, I saw lots of trouble and since I don't have enough experience with it, I just follow what my trusted person told me.


Kaz
 
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