Adjustable cam gears

[stuntman]

Yes, I've broken a few 2nd & 3rd gears, not to mention a ring and pinion. Always managed shaved most the teeth off of whatever every time.

Its a balance of Torq, Clutch, Grip and even Motor Mounts that either keeps a gearbox intact to something gives.
Too much clutch applied wrong, not enough motor mount to hold the impact, too much grip, too much boost that comes on with torq, 2nd and 3rd gear are the issues. Constant pounding when all else is right becomes a ring and pinion issue.

Coatings help, but they change the specs and eventually it wears a way anyway, clearances change and in the end, means nothing.
I have WPC'd 2nd, 3rd, 4th and the ring and pinon, including my OS 4.40. When you take them a part, they all look great...in the places that don't wear. The places they do, they are right back to wearing on the materiel that was there to begin with and any coating you put on is gone. If anything, you need to harden the pieces, shot preening for an example.... but in the end, to hard, they become brittle and break anyway due to heat, age and fatigue.

Its a balance of torque, clutch, grip and how it hooks up, where the shock goes and how that shock is supported. Get it wrong and something breaks. Every situation is different and needs to be supported differently.

Its as simple as that, Life is a balance, so are gearboxes .....

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Just to name a few
This is 3 different occasions.

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Two more for the hell of it that made me cringe

WPC is NOT a coating. It's a similar (better) process to shot peening where they use a much finer proprietary media at a higher velocity to normalize, smoothen, and strengthen the metal. The finish that wpc gives a part will go away from metal to metal contact but it will not effect or change the added strength unless you are wearing down the metal significantly.

Didn't you break most of your gears with solid mounts? Having too stiff of a mount is probably worse than running stock.

 

[Mac Attack]

In that link to DAL Motorsports above, they mentioned that "I have seen as much as an 8degree variance between cams, and 6 degrees from where the centerline should be." If that's true, it's not good. Even if you don't spend days on an engine dyno finding your individual engine's camshaft timing sweet spot, you can make sure your cam timing is where the Service Manual says or your gut guesses it should be. As long as nothing gets screwed up during installation.

The OEM gears are aligned to the cams by a key/keyway. I had to separate them when I replaced the seals during my engine rebuild. Obviously alignment was a concern, but I was pleased that mine were a nice interference fit (i.e. no slop). Why would Honda allow the possibility of such variation when they controlled other manufacturing parameters to thousandths of an inch tolerance?

I haven't measured TB stretch between a new belt and an old one (just eye-balled it and found no difference), but I also doubt the belts could stretch that much to cause an 8 degree variance between cams.

I have a lot of respect for the author of that site and what they accomplished, but the engineer in me is a bit skeptical of some of the claims on it!

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WPC is NOT a coating. It's a similar (better) process to shot peening where they use a much finer proprietary media at a higher velocity to normalize, smoothen, and strengthen the metal. The finish that wpc gives a part will go away from metal to metal contact but it will not effect or change the added strength unless you are wearing down the metal significantly.

Not quite. You really need to be a materials engineer to understand the intricacies, but peening processes (like heat treatment processes) all vary and depend on the base material, other finishing processes, and anticipated cyclic loads.

To say one method is better is therefore inaccurate. As you mentioned, the WPC uses finer media than other traditional peening processes that are based on larger-scale industrial uses. Obviously the dimensional tolerances in our engines/clutches/etc are much tighter. The by-product of that is the media can only influence a lot less of the base material. Look on the WPC website. The given example for compression extends only 40 micrometers into the material!

Not much for a region of influence that may be worn away during the course of use!

Knowledge is power - don't believe all marketing hype you hear.

Come to think of it, a business I work with does... wait for it... LASER peening. Ooohhh..... Now that really makes your car faster.

Dave

 

[stuntman]

So where's the link to your motor build?

 

[jwmelvin]

So where's the link to your motor build?

I believe it's:

Semi-DIY Mild Engine Build for FI

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=154927

Billy: did I see you won your race yesterday? congrats.

 

[Coz]

Yes, breaking gearboxes was mostly a combination because of the mounts being too stiff, grip and torq.

Here are a couple of pictures of my OS Giken. The ring and pinion were WPC'd. The OS has some issues, a whining noise that we noticed, heard after installing it and going to the dyno for tuning. So we dropped the gearbox and open it back up to see what was going on. This is the wear I saw in about 60 minutes of run time. Maybe its not actually wear ?

The OS is coming back out again, the whining noise has gotten worse. Has to be pulled and send back to OS for inspection for a 3rd time, they seem to think there is an issue how the teeth were cut.

WPC is NOT a coating. It's a similar (better) process to shot peening where they use a much finer proprietary media at a higher velocity to normalize, smoothen, and strengthen the metal. The finish that wpc gives a part will go away from metal to metal contact but it will not effect or change the added strength unless you are wearing down the metal significantly.

Didn't you break most of your gears with solid mounts? Having too stiff of a mount is probably worse than running stock.

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2 different levels.
1. 601 rwhp with with 488 lbs of torq,
2. 568 rwhp with 445 lbs of torq.
3. Currently running 515 rwhp and 444 lbs of torq.

Broke 4 different gearboxes in various ways at those levels until I changed motor mounts from the simi solid mounts and went back to OEM mounts stuffed with 3M window adhesive.
Haven't broken a gearbox since.

That's very interesting you mention mounts not being stiff enough. I know STMPO used to make aftermarket solution and SOS currently still do but also innovative make engine mounts for our cars, you have a choice of different stiffness also. There was a article on Prime that they wasn't the best fit but this was dated back a couple of years ago, maybe they have improved.

PPG used to make a gear kit for our cars, not sure if they still do. Quaife also make an adaptor plate to fit one of their boxes but their boxes are big money.

What power level are you running at?

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Sorry to hear about your troubles, do you think you will be up and running by May? I'm hoping to make a trip to the ring. I think your closer than I am.


My engine shop has told me to get the cam gears if i can, he said they will offer no added reliability, my engine will run without them but it will run a load better with them. I think going by that he is comfortable installing them, he has the added bonus of the engine dyno, they are also lighter.

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The engine builder said he wouldn't work with a compression ratio higher than 9.2:1 on my build. I think he wants to cover himself with lots of safety, he said it might be a little lazy off boost but i will easily make that back up when in boost plus with the turbo spooling low rpm. he said it will only make a small difference to the power off boost but make a huge difference to the reliability on boost. I'm happy with that statement as it feels me with confidence that he wants to make sure it's a good strong build.

 

[RYU]

[MENTION=4034]Coz[/MENTION] my OSG LSD has been working perfectly after about 500 miles of driving. In the city, I usually forget it's there. No clicking, no thumping, no whining. It only reminds me its there under heavy acceleration which just puts a huge smile on my face. I'm just saying this to help back up your initial thoughts that perhaps something is wrong (unfortunately) with yours. I'm even wondering if maybe the housing is tweaked or the shaft carrier bearings are worn out? I'm V1.5 of the 4.06FD. Which one do you have? 4.4FD?

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Btw.. I'm using the OSG 80-250w gear oil. I love this oil... Made my shifts even more buttery except it needs about 5-10mins to warm up.

 

[Coz]

Regan, Mine has made the whining noise from day one. Nick and I installed it and ran the car while it was still on the lift when we finished. Thats when we heard it. Everything was replaced in the gearbox bearing wise when we installed it the first time. You and I both know how anal Nick is about building anything. Since we were running out of time tuning wise, Mitch Peterson making the trip down from LA to Vista, Gabe at JDM letting us use his dyno, we decided to leave it in and go to tuning. During the tuning, it got worse. When we finished tuning, we took the car back to Nicks and pulled the gearbox out of the car again and took it a part. We went through everything again and even replaced the new Diff bearings we just put in on both side with a second set of new diff bearings on both sides figuring thats the only thing it could have been. Put it back in the car and the whine was still there.

There are 2 types of diff plates that OS offers. The original set of plates made a lot more noise when turning left or right at a very low speed, which was the diff locking and unlocking. The other set of diff plates they offered had holes drilled in them than made the locking and unlocking much more quite. I believe Nick Frunzi has the ones that make less noise. Not sure which ones you have. I have the diff plates without the holes drilled in them. So I expected to hear the locking and unlocking noise. But didn't expect to hear the whining that has gotten loud enough that the car is annoying to drive driving down the freeway or street just cruising.

Yes, I have the 4.40, which comes with both the Ring and Pinion. Which we believe could be the problem.

Here is a couple of video's recording of the sound it makes.

This one just cruising
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38gU7SFI4gw&feature=youtu.be

This one with some throttle modulation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5PsuBQfS-o&feature=youtu.be

Cam bought his at the same time I bought mine from Giken and he's experiencing the same situation I am.

I'm using Redline 90-140. Maybe I should try the OS oil your running to see what happens and if it makes any difference.

[MENTION=4034]Coz[/MENTION] my OSG LSD has been working perfectly after about 500 miles of driving. In the city, I usually forget it's there. No clicking, no thumping, no whining. It only reminds me its there under heavy acceleration which just puts a huge smile on my face. I'm just saying this to help back up your initial thoughts that perhaps something is wrong (unfortunately) with yours. I'm even wondering if maybe the housing is tweaked or the shaft carrier bearings are worn out? I'm V1.5 of the 4.06FD. Which one do you have? 4.4FD?

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Btw.. I'm using the OSG 80-250w gear oil. I love this oil... Made my shifts even more buttery except it needs about 5-10mins to warm up.

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Regan,
Ran what you said about the fluid by OS Giken today, this is what I was just told.
Going to try it and see what happens.

Jim, There is some merit with gear noise vs fluid choice. Our fluid contains the proper amount of LSD additive for proper operation of our LSD. From what I know, I know ford uses friction modifiers to quiet noise from gearboxes. It could be possible the OS fluid will help reduce gear noise.

I'll leave it up to you on what you wish to do from here. We can definitely send it to Japan for inspection. Or you can hold of on tearing the gearbox apart and try a simple fluid change.

Let me know how it goes.
Jon

 

[jaffaz32]

Regan, Mine has made the whining noise from day one. Nick and I installed it and ran the car while it was still on the lift when we finished. Thats when we heard it. Everything was replaced in the gearbox bearing wise when we installed it the first time. You and I both know how anal Nick is about building anything. Since we were running out of time tuning wise, Mitch Peterson making the trip down from LA to Vista, Gabe at JDM letting us use his dyno, we decided to leave it in and go to tuning. During the tuning, it got worse. When we finished tuning, we took the car back to Nicks and pulled the gearbox out of the car again and took it a part. We went through everything again and even replaced the new Diff bearings we just put in on both side with a second set of new diff bearings on both sides figuring thats the only thing it could have been. Put it back in the car and the whine was still there.

There are 2 types of diff plates that OS offers. The original set of plates made a lot more noise when turning left or right at a very low speed, which was the diff locking and unlocking. The other set of diff plates they offered had holes drilled in them than made the locking and unlocking much more quite. I believe Nick Frunzi has the ones that make less noise. Not sure which ones you have. I have the diff plates without the holes drilled in them. So I expected to hear the locking and unlocking noise. But didn't expect to hear the whining that has gotten loud enough that the car is annoying to drive driving down the freeway or street just cruising.

Yes, I have the 4.40, which comes with both the Ring and Pinion. Which we believe could be the problem.

Here is a couple of video's recording of the sound it makes.

This one just cruising
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38gU7SFI4gw&feature=youtu.be

This one with some throttle modulation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5PsuBQfS-o&feature=youtu.be

Cam bought his at the same time I bought mine from Giken and he's experiencing the same situation I am.

I'm using Redline 90-140. Maybe I should try the OS oil your running to see what happens and if it makes any difference.



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Regan,
Ran what you said about the fluid by OS Giken today, this is what I was just told.
Going to try it and see what happens.

Jim, There is some merit with gear noise vs fluid choice. Our fluid contains the proper amount of LSD additive for proper operation of our LSD. From what I know, I know ford uses friction modifiers to quiet noise from gearboxes. It could be possible the OS fluid will help reduce gear noise.

I'll leave it up to you on what you wish to do from here. We can definitely send it to Japan for inspection. Or you can hold of on tearing the gearbox apart and try a simple fluid change.

Let me know how it goes.
Jon

I can also hear my lsd which is a ATS 1.5.

It's not as loud as yours though, sounds cool.

My only concern about changing the oil is that, am I correct in thinking they are referring to gearbox oil? Doesn't the dif share the same oil?

People rate Honda mtf and most stick with it, which is surprising as everyone normally jumps on the aftermarket wagon but with gearbox oil hardly any run anything apart from Honda's mtf.

 

[Coz]

I thought it sounded cool to, but it got old quick cruising down the road, gets very annoying after awhile as loud as mine is.
We are still having a discussion back and forth about the gearbox fluid.
Nick, who has built 100's of NSX gearboxes and installed dozens of OS Gikens isn't so sure about using the OK Giken oil. And yes, the gearbox and diff share the same fluid.
What Nick has to say about it.

Jim, Jon,
I’m pretty sure the OS fluid is not compatible with the NSX gearbox. It’s designed more for third members. Friction modifiers and brass synchros don’t go together.

-Nick

I can also hear my lsd which is a ATS 1.5.

It's not as loud as yours though, sounds cool.

My only concern about changing the oil is that, am I correct in thinking they are referring to gearbox oil? Doesn't the dif share the same oil?

People rate Honda mtf and most stick with it, which is surprising as everyone normally jumps on the aftermarket wagon but with gearbox oil hardly any run anything apart from Honda's mtf.

 

[prym8]

The OS Giken lsd conversation was in Ryu's thread but anyway, I will add
my update here. I have a lot of clunking (but not that whine) and that is using mostly Honda MTF. (This is because SOS wanted to preserve my tranny and opted for a conservative approach.) This week I tried a heavier mix with some 75w90 and it still makes a lot of chatter.

I will probably go heavier but still feel the OS G fluid might be risky for the design of the NSX transmission.

I will post it up if I find the right tradeoff with a bit heavier fluid. Or some day wpc treatment..

 

[RYU]

Before we go any further, am I the only one running the tall stock 4.06 FD? I'm also running 19" rear tires now. Could be the reason I don't hear mind clunking unless I'm really really aggressive with the throttle while in a tight turn.

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I'll take a video today while doing a u-turn. I had to check my old parts to make sure I actually have an OSG LSD in there.

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Also, when its about 50° or lower outside 1st gear is tough to get into. I dont force it. I baby it out of the garage from 2nd gear. Car needs about 5mins to warm up in this temp.

Maybe this is symptomatic of what Nick is saying [MENTION=4034]Coz[/MENTION]

 

[Coz]

If my understanding is correct, the 4.40 is the only OS that comes with both the ring and pinion. I may be wrong, but that was my understanding.
The clunking is normal, its the diff locking and unlocking. You should be hearing that.
Yes, thats what Jon said as well when I asked him about the heavier gearbox oil.

Jim, Because a good majority is street only, those customers never get the gearbox to temp. It could be used for transaxle but would be notchy shifts until properly up to temp. Obviously for race this is a non issue.
Jon

Before we go any further, am I the only one running the tall stock 4.06 FD? I'm also running 19" rear tires now. Could be the reason I don't hear mind clunking unless I'm really really aggressive with the throttle while in a tight turn.

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I'll take a video today while doing a u-turn. I had to check my old parts to make sure I actually have an OSG LSD in there.

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Also, when its about 50° or lower outside 1st gear is tough to get into. I dont force it. I baby it out of the garage from 2nd gear. Car needs about 5mins to warm up in this temp.

Maybe this is symptomatic of what Nick is saying [MENTION=4034]Coz[/MENTION]

 

[stuntman]

4.06 OS Giken, wpc treated r&p and original clutch plates, Honda MTF fluid. No shifting issues when cold, mild chatter from the diff during very tight corners at parking lot speeds.

Regan, I'd throw in the Honda MTF to fix your problem.

 

[RYU]

[MENTION=4034]Coz[/MENTION] I believe the 4.06 version uses a OSG ring gear but stock pinion.
[MENTION=16531]stuntman[/MENTION] honestly the shifting doesn't bother me too much. I'll see how it goes thru the first half of this year and re-evaluate.

Drove the car again this morning. No noticeable chattering even in the parking lots. Perhaps I have the new clutch discs with the holes.

 

[Coz]

Thats my understanding about the 4.06 as well Regan. Hence the reason I may be getting the whine, ring and pinion mating issues.
You could very well have the disc's they offered for awhile with the holes. I also believe they've discontinued those as well.

Billy, I was told by OS I shouldn't run the OEM Honda gear oil in my 4.40, wasn't heavy enough.

[MENTION=4034]Coz[/MENTION] I believe the 4.06 version uses a OSG ring gear but stock pinion.
[MENTION=16531]stuntman[/MENTION] honestly the shifting doesn't bother me too much. I'll see how it goes thru the first half of this year and re-evaluate.

Drove the car again this morning. No noticeable chattering even in the parking lots. Perhaps I have the new clutch discs with the holes.

 

[RYU]

Keep in mind guys.. I might be one of the few who did not open up the OSG LSD to retune it. No WPC, No retuning of clutch packs, etc. I relied on the OSG factory LSD tune for the NSX and just put that sucker in there. Let me get thru my first track day.. maybe it just needs some break-in.

My OSG clutch was also super quiet in the beginning (WPC treated though..) but now it's smoother but slightly noisier.

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wow.. talk about a thread jack! This is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic

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tagging [MENTION=14201]kuni[/MENTION]. Not sure if his 6spd 4.4 whines like yours [MENTION=4034]Coz[/MENTION]. I didn't think so last time I drove it.

 

[kuni]

My car has a noticeable whine under acceleration, but it's not loud. Not bothersome at all. My LSD is fully WPC treated - all the plates and gears, as well as the final gear ring and shaft. Input shaft, all transmission gears, synchros and bearings are WPC treated too but that shouldn't make much of a difference in this case. Using OSG gear oil. I've been told using the OSG gear oil is key.

 

[RYU]

Posted a short video here. Basically I can't reproduce the LSD noises at will.

 

[Coz]

Not moving at that speed, you never will. The locking and unlocking only happens with driving very slow in tight circles.
I didn't notice any whine in yours at all at speeds.
But again, you don't have both the OS ring and pinion gear, which we believe is the problem and how they are meshing.

Posted a short video here. Basically I can't reproduce the LSD noises at will.

 

[RYU]

Not moving at that speed, you never will. The locking and unlocking only happens with driving very slow in tight circles.
I didn't notice any whine in yours at all at speeds.
But again, you don't have both the OS ring and pinion gear, which we believe is the problem and how they are meshing.

That u-turn was basically at full lock so not sure how much tighter I could get. At this point I'm just wondering what kind of noise you guys are experiencing and under what conditions. Based on the experience with my car its not a big deal at all though it's sort of bothering me if mine is out of the norm.

I took another vid. Here I hold the u turn for a full 180°. You can hear my clutch clang around but no LSD noises? I did hear a clunk at exactly 1:12 which I believe is the LSD? Ignore the weird brake noise at 0:12. That was from another car.

https://youtu.be/-64bzO1Mxmg

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Btw Jim, the slower I go the more chances it won't lock up. In my car and in Jon Martin's NSX its the torque that locks up the LSD. Which is what happened in 1:12. That was more throttle input than my normal left turn since I was trying to merge quickly.

 

[Coz]

The clunk sound at 1.12 sounds normal, sounds just like mine unlocking, yours is quieter, which makes me think you have the newer baffles diff plates.
The video I looked at before was the one you and Kuni did on track. "NSX Build"
I didn't hear anything OS wise on that was out of the norm. Didn't see any other links than that one.
Yours also doesn't make the whining noise either, which is good.

What dash gauge cluster do you have ?...Is that from an S2000 ? I like that

That u-turn was basically at full lock so not sure how much tighter I could get. At this point I'm just wondering what kind of noise you guys are experiencing and under what conditions. Based on the experience with my car its not a big deal at all though it's sort of bothering me if mine is out of the norm.

I took another vid. Here I hold the u turn for a full 180°. You can hear my clutch clang around but no LSD noises? I did hear a clunk at exactly 1:12 which I believe is the LSD? Ignore the weird brake noise at 0:12. That was from another car.

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Btw Jim, the slower I go the more chances it won't lock up. In my car and in Jon Martin's NSX its the torque that locks up the LSD. Which is what happened in 1:12. That was more throttle input than my normal left turn since I was trying to merge quickly.

 

[jaffaz32]

The clunk sound at 1.12 sounds normal, sounds just like mine unlocking, yours is quieter, which makes me think you have the newer baffles diff plates.
The video I looked at before was the one you and Kuni did on track. "NSX Build"
I didn't hear anything OS wise on that was out of the norm. Didn't see any other links than that one.
Yours also doesn't make the whining noise either, which is good.

What dash gauge cluster do you have ?...Is that from an S2000 ? I like that

There is a kit in the Vendors section to install the S2K speedometer in the Nsx. One of the newer threads.

 

[Coz]

Thank you

 

[RYU]

The clunk sound at 1.12 sounds normal, sounds just like mine unlocking, yours is quieter, which makes me think you have the newer baffles diff plates.
The video I looked at before was the one you and Kuni did on track. "NSX Build"
I didn't hear anything OS wise on that was out of the norm. Didn't see any other links than that one.
Yours also doesn't make the whining noise either, which is good.

What dash gauge cluster do you have ?...Is that from an S2000 ? I like that

Thanks always for your contribution to our community Jim! I feel a little better the clunking is normal. I hardly ever hear it but got lucky I was able to get it on video.

That is the S2k AP2 cluster. We've got about 95% working. Still working with Johan to make a few minor adjustments. I like it

 

[Coz]

Thats really a very nice piece he made, looked over the thread for it. A lot of work and thought went into that. Well thought out and executed.
$500.00 for it is a little out of my wallet range, but bravo all the same for such a cool upgrade.

Thanks always for your contribution to our community Jim! I feel a little better the clunking is normal. I hardly ever hear it but got lucky I was able to get it on video.

That is the S2k AP2 cluster. We've got about 95% working. Still working with Johan to make a few minor adjustments. I like it