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BBSC on OBDII

Joined
29 October 2002
Messages
171
Location
Atlanta, GA
After completing my OBD2 BaschBoost supercharger (BBSC) install, tuning, and putting some miles on it, I thought I'd do a writeup on the process.

Details: I puchased a used Novi 1000 BBSC from a fellow Prime member some time ago, but it came with a first-gen Split Second (SS) box. I sent the box off to Mark Basch, and received a replacement after a bit of waiting. In the meantime, the kit sat in my garage, and I polished some parts by hand and got some other things taken care of. I obtained a 8lb pulley and Walbro 255 fuel pump from chudson1549.

My car is an almost stock '98, with a 3.2 engine, throttle-by-wire, and OBD2. I was made aware of the potential issues of the install from the beginning, but decided that the gains would be worth the time spent troubleshooting.

Installation: The installation was split over two days, due to some initial problems. The injector plugs on the OBD2 models are different than OBD1 models, for reasons I never tracked down. We were able to track down the OBD1 plugs from other honda harnesses that we had access to. I initially put the the older-style plugs on using in-line splices. After some problems with the cats overheating after the kit install, I cut all the original plugs off and soldered on the old-style plugs, alleviating the problem. I did a little bit of research into the injectors - it seems the 3.0 cars use peak/hold injectors, and 3.2 use saturated. Saturated can be used in place of peak/hold, but not the other way around. Fortunately, the 440 RC injectors that come with the kit appear to be saturated, as they test at 16ohms. More info can be found here.

RacerX-21 of DAL Motorsports did the installation of the kit itself. It took him about 12 hours. His expertise of the kit and the car in general was evident throughout the installation, although my expertise in handing tools to him was second to none. The difference in the headers on the 3.2 did slow the progress down a bit over a 3.0 installation. I drove off with the car under the stock fuel management system; very rich, and hardly drivable. Installation pictures can be found here.


We moved from a dual stage fuel system to a single stage. This required bypassing the large silver resistor on the front, right hand side of the engine. When the car is running at lower speeds, the fuel pump is throttled back by running through this resistor; at higher speeds, the resistor is bypassed. To ensure we had enough fuel always being delievered, we bypassed the resistor by shunting the wires leading to the resistor. Coincidently, there's a connector on the targa models that goes to the clamshell, but isn't plugged into anything once in the clamshell- it happens to have the same plug, so I used it so that I can switch back to a dual-stage system, if need. Having a single-stage system hurts fuel economy, but makes tuning easier, as the fuel delievery is constant.

I have since switched to a Gatorback belt, which has helped immensely with slippage. The part number for this belt is 4060672 / 6PK1705 ; I'm not sure if the last number is the 6-pack number - in any case, I got it from a local AutoZone.

Electronics: This was the most difficult part. I had the next-gen SS box, but no wiring diagram and no harness. I finally found that the EVO VII/VIII worked as a drop-in replacement, and got some wiring diagrams from AndyVecsey. It turns out that the connections for the OBD2 cars are electrically the same as the OBD1 cars, but the pinouts in the harnesses are different. I'll later post the wiring diagrams here for future reference. Also note that I had a harness that originally came from Mark Basch, but was missing 9 pins. It turns out that this harness won't work in OBD2 cars - you need a harness with all the pins- the one above does have all the pins. The SS box was loaded with all 10's in table A (fuel delivery) and all 0's in table B (timing) - no change from stock, so the SS box shouldn't be modifying any signals, and the car should run as if the SS box didn't exist.

We had several problems starting here. First, the engine had problems starting - it would turn over easily, but would never fire. Removing the harness (and thus taking the SS box out of the loop) would cause the engine to start up again without any issues. With the SS box in-line, we could start the car with a rolling start. I called and spoke to Mark at Split Second about the problem; I was first told that it was an issue with my car or that I had a bad battery. I suspected this was untrue, but replaced the battery anyway with a larger one - no difference. He then told me about a 100k ohm resistor inline on the yellow wire (CAM angle sensor) inside the black box, but not covered by the epoxy; this resistor was in place because some cars were sensitive to starting, and others sensitive in the 7-8k rpm range. His suggestion was to first remove the resistor to see if the car starts, then replace it with a smaller and smaller one until the car didn't start, and choose the next highest one up - this would supposedly solve the starting problem and minimize the high rpm problem. Removing the resistor didn't help.

I had called Larry Bastanza as well, although he was just as stumped as the rest of us. but gave me several other ideas to try.

Based on his recommendation, I tried bypassing the SS box one wire at a time. As luck would have it, the first wire I tried did the trick. It was a CAM angle sensor wire - one of the yellow or tan wires. At this point, we knew that a) the car would start fine with the supercharger on the stock ecu and b) the car would run fine on the SS box. So, after going back and forth with Split Second, I finally got the idea to use a relay and bypass the SS box on startup. A hack, but after my 10th resoldering of the harnesses, two harnesses @ $140/ea (too many times resoldering on one), and 10 days of trying, I was open to anything. I picked up a $4 DPDT relay from Radio Shack, wired it in, and it worked the first time. The resistor in the SS box was removed again, and the relay was soldered in position.


Check Engine Lights: The next problem I had was constant Check Engine Light (CEL) problems, and the car going into "limp home mode." I picked up an Auterra OBD2 -> Palm scan tool, which made diagnositcs much easier. I was getting engine misfire codes all the time. Finally, Kodiac, who had been there through the entire process, guessed that the vacuum hoses we were using to send the vacuum to the SS Box were too small. We replaced them with larger hoses (3/8" ?), and the problems went away.

Tuning: We finally scheduled some dyno time, and pulled 375rwhp on the first run, slobbering rich. I don't have a tap for an five-wire O2 / FJO sensor, so I'm just using the tail pipe sensor on these runs. Kodiac was very familiar with the SS box, and we had the map that the nsxnut was using on his 8lb BBSC setup with a 3.0. Within an hour, the car was tuned, showing 11.5 A/F's across the board (although probably slightly richer, given that we were using a tailpipe sniffer and not an FJO). We let it cool for a bit and did two final runs. The first was at 380rwhp. Kodiac remembered the VVIS was still enabled, so we pulled the VVIS vacuum line (effectively disabling VVIS) and put a screw in the end. The final run was 390rwhp / 267 ft-lbs.

My map, tuned for 3.2L engine, BBSC w/ 8lb pulley, Walbro 255 fuel pump, 440 injectors, single stage fuel system, 93 octane pump fuel, and ~70F temperatures can be found here. Obviously, I will gaurantee that this will not work as-is for you- it is only meant as a reference and starting point for work on a similar setup.

Dyno: The final dyno sheet is shown below. Keep in mind that this is a heat-soaked engine - I would imagine that the engine is pulling around 400-410rwhp on a good run; I'll post when I go back to the dyno.

For reference, the accepted drivetrain loss for the NSX is ~12%, so 400rwhp =~ 450 crank hp. I never dyno'd my car before the supercharger, but assuming a 290hp starting point, that's about 160hp and 80 ft-lbs of gain.


Vacuum Tuning: We had talked to Mark at Split Second about the best way to tune OBD2 cars. He suggested that, by using a scanner, the long-term fuel trim values can be monitors. The ECU constantly monitors the engine and sets both short and long term fuel trims for each range of RPMs. To make the engine happy (and to make it run well), we drove the car and held the engine in each column on Table A on the SS software, adjusting the fuel value as necessary until the scanner showed a long term fuel trim of +/- 3%.

History: I don't have a long history with the engine, but enough that I feel that I can say it was a success. I've driven it about 1000 highway miles (~23mpg) and 340 track miles @ VIR, including a solid hour of track time and holding 7950 rpm for almost a mile @ 125mph on consecutive laps. Not a single problem with overheating, CEL's, or any other issues. The car performed flawlessly. I'm not a very experienced track driver, but the engine was still run hard. As a side note, the intake air temp (as reported by the scan tool) was around 90F, or about 40 degrees over ambient. This was also true on highway driving - about 110F when the outside air was around 70F. I have no explanation as to why the IAT's are seemingly low to the other supercharger installs I've seen.

Current Issues: I call these "issues" because they're not really problems- just minor things that need to be worked out. The first is that the car sometimes wants to stall when falling back to low RPM, say when I hold the clutch from 4k rpm back to idle. It doesn't happen all the time, and I can catch it if I just pop the clutch back out, but it does make stop and go traffic tough.

The only other issue is that I sometimes (maybe once every 200 miles) get a CEL for an EGR sensor issue, only in constant throttle, highway conditions. This wasn't an issue in the city or the track, and doesn't impact performance, but is annoying. It's related to the vacuum system and "stealing" too much vacuum to run the SS box and the bypass valve. When I find a solution, I'll post. UPDATE: See post below. I now don't think this is related to the EGR at all, but to a possible blown cat earlier.

Special Thanks: I'd like to publicly thank the following people in their help in getting this running: Mike Daniel (Kodiac), Mark Hicks (the nsxnut), Rob Morrison (RacerX-21), Mark at Split Second (949-863-1359), Andy Vecsey (AndyVecsey), and Larry Bastanza (Larry Bastanza). I've also been honored with a direct call from Mark Basch (NSXTech) himself after he caught news of my success, and am happy that I was able to offer my $3 relay fix as a possible permanent fix for future SS boxes.

Final Notes: I'm very happy with the kit and the progress with my car. I would like to stress to everyone that the kit itself performs flawlessly - the majority of the issues are related to tuning the SS box, and the original SS box has been replaced with the second-gen version. An AEM or other high-end box may be a much easier (although more expensive) solution. I still plan on posting the complete wiring diagrams and part numbers of the items I used. I hope this helps someone, and I'll be happy to answer any questions I can.

 
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Hell of a nice write-up! Kudos, and happy boosting. :smile:
 
Brian2by2 said:
EXCELLENT write up!!!

any other BBSC users out there have a problem with the traffic stop & go stalling issue? :)

Also, is there a sound clip out there of a BBSC with a BOV?? I'd like to hear that...
Thanks! :) I've talked to MB about this issue, and he and Kodiac think that more tuning in vacuum may be able to stop the stall issue. My biggest concern was the upcoming track day, and now that that has passed, I can work on the minor details.

Do note that the BBSC kit comes with a by-pass valve (for blowing off pressure when the throttle lifts), not a BOV; otherwise, I'd record it myself. :)
 
After posting, I got a PM from Larry Bastanza asking about the exact code for what I thought was the EGR sensor problem. Turns out it's related to my rear cat being malfunctioned- possibly blown. And it all makes sense now-

I left out some things in my posting (obvisously I couldn't say everything). I had originally in-line spliced the injector plugs on the existing harness. For some reason, when we took it out that night (~10 miles out and back), the rear cat was GLOWING red. Kodiac made the comment that it was probably running way too rich and the rear cat may be blown. I cut all the injector plugs back off and soldered the old-style directly on - the problem went away.

So the problem is most likely NOT the EGR. I'll know more this weekend, but the problem may have been caused by a condition other than the BBSC or tuning directly....
 
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Brian2by2 said:
it comes with a bypass valve, but you can add a BOV, right?
Sure - there was just no reason to in my case, or any other "standard" BBSC install. I was originally going to put a BOV on it to blow off the top 2lbs of boost to stay safe, but was later convinced that I'd be safe up to 8lbs of boost.
 
Two comments and I will get flamed for the first one.

If your cats keep giving you trouble and you have to get rid of them, there may be a solution to the CEL’s. I have heard a small resistor on the second (I think) O2 sensor wire will trick the ECU into thinking the cat is working. I don’t know the value of resistor but it sounds like you may be more adept at figuring this out than me.

Secondly I wanted to bring your attention to this thread, as it might be an OBD II option for us OBD II advocates in the future.
Here
 
congratulations. SOunds like you've pretty much powered through virtually every problem most BBSC problems i've heard of in recent times.

I also had the "cold start" woes, originoally thought secondary to a very loose battery cable (see a few posts down..). A couple things recently discovered...

The car is very consistent. No "intermittent" starting problems. Once the weather cooled off, it would not start, period. It was discovered by Mark Basch that by charging the battery with a charger, then putting the charger on 50 amps for the cranking would start the car every single time. He then bypassed the SSBOX, and the car starts every time. He put in the relay to disable the box on startup, and the car has been reported back to me as starting fine even down to about 30+ degrees, way colder than when i last tried to start it.

It certainly sounds to me like this relay is the answer that at least several BBSC'ers have been looking for, since i've heard the cold start problem mentioned a few times.. The relay itself is a part of the ssbox, i.e. it is not "hanging off" the outside of the box. I also have an otherwise stock 3.2 liter year 2000 nsx. my last dyno pull was consistent 11's until mid 7000+... when i can post a redline pull i will do so.

*edit

I saw your dyno sheet on your gallery, printed, and did a pseudo scientific overlay, adjusting for differences in scale. WHat i found was interesting. I have consistently more HP until 5000 and less thereafter. I also have a fair amount more TQ until 5000, then less thereafter.. i think i'm running about 7+ psi, but not sure cause i haven't done a redline pull yet, and the bbsc continues to increase boost till redline.. I was at 5.8 psi around 7000.
 
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mojo said:
Dyno: The final dyno sheet is shown below. Keep in mind that this is a heat-soaked engine - I would imagine that the engine is pulling around 400-410rwhp on a good run; I'll post when I go back to the dyno.
4965ktan.jpg

My BBSC writeup

Great Job! Nice to see everyone is beginning to figure out the BBSC! We have similar dyno charts, my clutch seems to be slipping a little though :( My setup is very similar besides the Novi 2000 blower, 550 cc injectors and intercooler. I run approx 9lbs of boost. At 8 lbs of boost you may want to start to consider something to cool down intake air temps also.

I have the same issue about idle bogging down, it seems to drop to an idle and then the RPMs fall as though something is pulling it down. Let me know if you find a resolution since my car is in storage right now and I won't be tinkering around with it for a while

By the way, I love the polished look, I'm tempted to pull mine apart this winter! :)

Kevin
 
ktan said:
My setup is very similar besides the Novi 2000 blower, 550 cc injectors and intercooler. I run approx 9lbs of boost. At 8 lbs of boost you may want to start to consider something to cool down intake air temps also.

If I were to go over the 8lb pulley, then I think the Novi 2000 would be ideal - I just don't think I need it (especially since the 1000 is in and running!).

I would, however, like to have 550 injectors in there for more peace of mind. I ran through the RC Engineering worksheet and at 450bhp, 6 injectors, 0.57 bsfc (guess), max injector cycle of 80% and 70PSIG fuel pressure, I'm at the limit of the 440 injectors. I'm not terribly worried, as I don't stay at 8000k all the time (where I make peak hp), and I don't plan on going over this, but it would be nice to have the 550's in there, just to have some moving room.

Also, I had mentioned that my IAT's are running around 40F over ambient, even after an hour of track time (although it was only ~50F). I get the same on the highway - about 110F when it's 70F ambient. Do you have any numbers of what you were getting before your intercooler?

I have the same issue about idle bogging down, it seems to drop to an idle and then the RPMs fall as though something is pulling it down. Let me know if you find a resolution

Good to hear I'm not the only one in a way... I'm still working on it, and will post if I do find a solution.

By the way, I love the polished look, I'm tempted to pull mine apart this winter! :)
Be prepared for a LOT of work- it took about 2-3 weeks of on/off work. Remember you're coming from a sand casted part. But the results are awesome. :)
 
i originally had the engine die repeatedly when coming off throttle. See some earlier posts by me.. Mark was able to tune it out fairly handily back in may, and it never recurred.. I *think* he took out some retard in the low RPM range, but ask him for sure..
*sniffle* now i see these guys hitting 400+ rwhp and makes me jealous...
 
Mine did that all the time too. I found that by changing the vacuum numbers, you could make it go away. (I believe it was 11.6 that was my sweet spot)This however, had a side effect. This would cause me engine to buck when I was on the gas. And if i was revving in park, the tach would fluctuate around 2500-3000. Other settings just increased or decreased the point which this happened.

This makes no sense to me, but after sticking a blow off valve on it, the engine shut off issue went away.

Glad to hear that the bbsc's are getting worked out.
 
I used to have the semi stall drop to low RPM, but it is completely gone after being tuned by Devin at Payn Tech. He should have my current map on his laptop. perhaps he coud post it or email it and give some clues as to what trend eliminated the problem.
I do still have the cold start issue blow 40 F. is that resistor something I can put in myself? BTW when it finally does start I get a cam angle sensor CEL.
thanks
woody
 
WOODY said:
I do still have the cold start issue blow 40 F. is that resistor something I can put in myself? BTW when it finally does start I get a cam angle sensor CEL.
The relay may be what you want - I personally couldn't see any reason for the resistor, so took it out. I got the cam angle sensor CEL as well until I did the relay.

I'm going to take some things apart and diagram some things out this weekend.

It sounds like more tuning may be needed on my part to solve the low end problem...
 
devin's # 248-649-3966 if he doesnt have it I will pop the panels and download my map for you. did split second tell you what the resister was for? I am a little wary of replacing it without knowing its purpose.
 
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WOODY said:
devin's #248-649-3966 if he doesnt have it I will pop the panels and download my map for you. did split second tell you what the resister was for? I am a little wary of replacing it without knowing its purpose.
It's been a while, but I'll try to remember. SS said that some of the late model cars seemed to be have a more sensitive CAM angle sensor, and some didn't. The cost to adjust for a wider range of values was expensive, so the quick fix was to solder a 100k ohm resistor inline on the yellow line. It's heat-shrunk inside the SS box so that it can be replaced by the user.

The resistor solves one potential problem (starting sensitivity), but introduces another. Some engines with the resistor will sputter between 7k and 8k rpms. So the suggested solution I got was to try smaller and smaller resistors until I found one that would let me start but not give the sputter problem.

Since I circumvented the starting problem with the relay trick, the resistor wasn't needed, and I removed it. I don't have any problems above 7k rpm, either.
 
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Hey Mojo, how are you figuring out intake air temps? My car is now in storage So I cannot really do anything about it but when i bring it out next year I would definitely like to find out my IAT's before and after the intercooler.

Thanks
Kevin
 
ktan said:
Hey Mojo, how are you figuring out intake air temps?

I'm using the OBD2 scan tool. I should note, however, that I don't know exactly where the sensor for that temperature reading is physically located; if it's in the throttle body, then it's probably accurate. Does anybody know off hand?
 
He then told me about a 100k ohm resistor inline on the yellow wire (CAM angle sensor) inside the black box, but not covered by the epoxy; this resistor was in place because some cars were sensitive to starting, and others sensitive in the 7-8k rpm range

are all cars one or the other? if i have hard start, but no 7-8000 sputter would removing the resister make it start, but sputter? I am tempted to just pull the resistor and see what happens.
 
WOODY said:
are all cars one or the other? if i have hard start, but no 7-8000 sputter would removing the resister make it start, but sputter? I am tempted to just pull the resistor and see what happens.

He indicated that some of the cars had the problem and some didn't- apparently there are some variances in the CAM angle sensors that the SS box cannot account for.

From my own experience, I seriously doubt that removing the resistor will change anything. I do suspect that using the relay will solve your problem. Also, I've pulled that resistor in and out a lot- I don't think think you'll have any problems by pulling it out (actually cutting and resoldering) and seeing what happens. But again, just my experience, which is one car...
 
As promised, here is the wiring diagram for the relay fix.

The relay switches the output of the CAM angle sensors between ECU operation for startup and the Split Second box for normal operation.

Wiring: The sensor wires (B5 [Tan] and B6 [Yellow] wires from the harness) go to both the Normally Open (NO) relay connections and to the corresponding solid color wires on the SS box.

The modified sensor wires (Tan/Black and Yellow/Black) go to the Normally Closed (NC) relay connections.

The output wires go from the relay common connection to the color/Black modified signal wires out to the ECU.

The starter signal is tapped (not cut!) from wire C6 on the harness.

Operation: When the key move to the start position, this pin gets 12v, activates the relay, and the CAM angle signals goes directly from the engine to the ECU. After the engine has started the key moves to the run position, the relay is deactivated, and the relay falls back to the closed position, allowing the SS box to modify the signals as needed.

There's probably some electrical noise that results from the relay flipping on the line that could be minimized by some capacitors, but I haven't had any problems using it directly myself.

The relay: Any DPDT 12v relay will work, as long as the input voltage allows for a range higher than 12v (to allow for 14+ v coming from the battery), and the contacts are rated for > 1amp. I've listed the Radio Shack p/n that Mark Basch used for this solution; I don't have the RS part number for the relay I used.
 

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well i can report back that that DPDT relay has worked very well on my car, so far at least! Ever since the temp dropped below mid 60's, the car was having problems starting, very consistently. Got the car back thursday, and i've tried the car late each nite, and early each AM (last this morning at 6AM when it's as cold as possible..) and it started very consistently, usually on 1st crank.

I do recall MB mentioning a 200k ohm resistor he was putting into my car for a reason that eludes me currently. I think that is the resistor you guys are talking about...
 
comrade Mojo, congratulations on your successful install, and your write-up is an excellent contribution to our community.

You should also be congratulated on your patience ( I know how long this took to bring to fruition...), and your ability to line up a solid panel of experts to support you. Now, you (and that Kodiac fellow!) can rightfully claim your own spot on the panel!

You and I started talking about the BBSC a long time ago, and I believe I noted that there would be some frustrating trial-and-error, followed by periods of extreme delight! It is also proof positive that a technically capable DIYer can get the job done very effectively. Add another BBSC lover to the list! :biggrin:
 
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