BBSC Warning!!!

[nsxpowered]

Guys I have been running the BBSC on my car since 2002 of Nov. Ever since I had it, I did not put more than 4,000 miles because it was a show car. Anyways I had the update done with the split second box which I thought fixed everything during 2004. The car was estimated with 360HP to the wheels. Anyways I had the car looked over by one of the best tuner in the world just recently. Here is some of the problems that he found.

The good news is the SC setup is not a bad design, what it lacks is a fuel system and fuel management. At the current equipment that was provided from Basch, the engine can only support 310HP safely. He is currently going to provide me with a fix and I'm sure this fix can be replicated for everyone running the BBSC kit and I will provide the contact info if everything works out as planned.

What I am going to do is upgrade the fuel pump with a bosch fuel pump that has higher volume delivery, I rather not go with walbro because it is not oem quality and can fail or leak and also noisy. I have seen many Supra with walbros and I can smell the gasoline inside the garage. Having a proper fuel pump means matching the volume requirements close to the pump specifications. If you get a pump that is too strong, it will be overloaded and cause premature failure. RC injectors are not that good also, there's been too many issues with leaks. I will be running the HKS Fcon which is probably one of the best system I have seen out there (can pass smog on OBD1 and OBD2, idle smooth, multiple map and learning curve), I don't trust AEM because I've seen too many engines go bad from hiccups caused by the software glitch and people not being able to have their cars idle close to stock. AEM can be tuned by anyone including someone who has no experience, whereas the HKS Fcon can only be tuned by someone who is certified (someone who knows what they are doing). This is probably the of the many reasons why I now vouch for the HKS Fcon. I wouldn't want someone who claims they know this and that and trust my car to them. If it blows up, its going to be me that is financially responsible for it. Another good management is the Motec which is probably overkill.

Also the CTSC kit that provides their ACM is not so great either. It is just a simple device that controls the preprogrammed fuel linearly and does not monitor or make adjustments/corrections if detonation occurs. If the AF is over 13.0 then you could be looking for trouble if you track your car or run the car hard on a hot day.

Major Problems

1.) A/F ratio was at 14.6 on one side and the other side was 16.1. There is detonation occuring. (possible engine damage already)

2.) The RC Injectors provided were maxed out

3.) The Factory fuel pump is not sufficient to keep proper pressure at 6k+ rpm.


I will report back when I get more answers.

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

How big was the rock you and your car were hiding under?

Armando

 

[BioBanker]

nsxpowered - I think you're the only one left with a running BBSC'd engine that is not running an EMS.

Dont turn that car on!

 

[peiserg]

i've got the ssbox. originally running 440 cc injectors and would have lean problems above 7500. switched to 550s and can achieve AFR of 10:1 wherever I want...assuming i want that. I do have a fuel pressure guage and FJO wideband running at all times, which is what alerted me to the lean problem above 7500 (would run 11.5 flat as a pancake up to 7000 then creep up to 12.5 by 7500 then 14 ish above that)

So it's possible, but i'd recommend a wideband to be sure..but i'd think that would be the same regardless of EMS style you prefer?

i would think any "qualified" tuner would know all that regardless of EMS....and the lean out is possible for any EMS and injector combo.

just for curiousity sake, what keeps the shadetree tuner from playing with the the other EMS vs. aem and ssbox? is there a code supplied by the certification department that prevents idiots like me from doing backyard tuning?

 

[WOODY]

I rather not go with walbro because it is not oem quality and can fail or leak and also noisy.

ummmm.... how does a walbro leak as it is an intank pump? Same goes for the noise

I don't trust AEM because I've seen too many engines go bad from hiccups caused by the software glitch

ummmm, which glitch is that?

AEM can be tuned by anyone including someone who has no experience, whereas the HKS Fcon can only be tuned by someone who is certified (someone who knows what they are doing).

Just because someone takes an fcon class does not make them a world class tuner. There is no substitute for knowledge and experience regardless of the the management system. Do the homework and find a competent tuner regardless of the number of plaques in their wall

Major Problems

1.) A/F ratio was at 14.6 on one side and the other side was 16.1. There is detonation occuring. (possible engine damage already)

Did this somehow change from the original tune? I assume the tuner did not hand you a dyno sheet showing those AFR's.

If I sound a bit negative it is because the issues you are having are so basic and the car should never have been driven with those numbers, and if AFR was never checked after initial install that is consumer negligence. Too lean = more fuel=higher pressure or bigger injectors or both. Who tuned it? Was it the one size fits all map that came with the ssbb?
The FI system is fine and easy enough to tune effectively and safely with enough fuel available.

 

[Devin@AEM]

Woody hit the nail on the head.

Sounds to me like the cars with improperly installed fuel pumps and injectors were also tuned by the same people. It's funny how "glitches" are blamed on hardware and not the idiot punching the keys.

 

[ktan]

I rather not go with walbro because it is not oem quality and can fail or leak and also noisy.

ummmm.... how does a walbro leak as it is an intank pump? Same goes for the noise

Not dis-agreeing with Woody because i totally agree with all his other statements but the Walbro IS noisy after running for a long time (1 hour +), it has a high pitch whining noise from the pump and is common amongst walbro pumps.

 

[WOODY]

Not dis-agreeing with Woody because i totally agree with all his other statements but the Walbro IS noisy after running for a long time (1 hour +), it has a high pitch whining noise from the pump and is common amongst walbro pumps.

My statement only represents my personal experience. I have never heard my walbro even after extended driving(3 + hrs continuous every weekend) I assume this noise is only heard at low fuel levels ?

 

[nsxpowered]

I was going to put a disclaimer on my post about my opinions but it was very late at night when I received the news. I never really driven my car and trusted the people who made the BBSC kit so therefore I was unaware of the problem. I only thought of posting this for information to share and this is more of a goodwill post instead of bashing any products.


WOODY: The walbro issue is from many Supras I've seen, they actually were not intank fuel pumps, which is kind of weird. When I say leak I don't mean actual leak, but I can smell a lot of gas. This is something I would not want. Maybe I should go back to the Supra forums and ask more about them. After talking with people who work there they had many issues with warranty and they mentioned improper matching (in this case bigger isn't better). I only mentioned OEM quality such as Bosch and Denso because they are very reliable. If you look at the manufacturing process at one of the OEM compare to Walbro, it's a very big difference in ISO manufacturing standards, quality of engineering etc, lifespan and consistancy with performance. The tuner that installed the kit originally was Basch himself. Right now the person that is working on my car is very experienced. I don't want to bring him into this subject, but he should be very well known in the industry. I'm not here making an advertisement for him, nor am I quoting him verbatim.

PEISERG: I will have a wideband now. From what I know is that Motec are very good engine management systems and the HKS Fcons. I been searching forever for something good on the Supra forums and everything out there had some sort of issues especially with idling and smog. I think HKS has a special thing for the Fcon that only approved tuners can tune. I think this is a good idea and other companies should do the same for the sake of the customer protection.

Devin: Do you work for AEM? Or are you associated with LoveFAB?


I'm a big fan of OEM quality (spoiled by the NSX quality) and those are the only two setups that I have seen that can power big HP cars and drive smoothly like the factory. I am not bashing AEM, just go talk to people who have any type of EMS and see who is really happy with the outcome such as everyday drivability. If the customers are completely satisfied then that is great!

In my opinion what is important to me is the following:

1.) The EMS doing it's job (providing proper fuel control / engine timing / a smooth dyno graph)
2.) Idle just like stock
3.) Pass smog tests (because I live in CA)

 

[Devin@AEM]

I work for AEM. Cody at Lovefab built me a turbo kit for the car.

I wasn't saying you were bashing the AEM. My point was that if the person behind the keys (with any system) doesn't know what he/she is doing, the car will start/idle/run like crap and always will. Just like if the person who installs proven components (like RC injectors) on your car doesn't know what they are doing, the fuel system might leak.

Good luck with your improvements. Proper tuning with any good system (AEM, Motec, Fcon, etc) is priceless.

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

Just because someone takes an fcon class does not make them a world class tuner. There is no substitute for knowledge and experience regardless of the the management system. Do the homework and find a competent tuner regardless of the number of plaques in their wall

We as well as many other AEM users out there have experienced failures with their EMS. In fact recently we were tuning a 1200rwhp Viper GTS that had a box failure. It happens. This is not an to say this is an isolated event with this particular brand of EMS as other brands we have used have had issues in the past also.

Thats exactly how we describe the AEM certification process. The HKS Pro Tuner Certification is invite only. The qualification process is extremely in depth unlike that of the AEM process we experienced. There is a reason why there are only a limited number of certified HKS tuners. While we do agree there is no substitute for knowledge and experience, you would be amazed at some of the "tuners" out there that are AEM certified. As you mention the bottom line is finding a competent tuner.

BTW, the person tuning this BBSC NSX kinda qualifys as being competent:smile:

 

[dynomike]

I work for AEM. Cody at Lovefab built me a turbo kit for the car.

I wasn't saying you were bashing the AEM. My point was that if the person behind the keys (with any system) doesn't know what he/she is doing, the car will start/idle/run like crap and always will. Just like if the person who installs proven components (like RC injectors) on your car doesn't know what they are doing, the fuel system might leak.

Can't be said better. There are so many so called tuners out there that are only concerned about making power. What people don't understand is that is the easiest part about being a tuner. It is the start up, the driveability, the snapeness of the throttle, the fuel occonomy, being able to have corrections for temperature and altitude changes Oh and not to mention trying to get a radical motor combination to pass emissions. There are thousands of people who could probably hit a few key strokes and make power but only a few of us that can do all of the above.
:smile:

 

[lowellhigh79]

Can't be said better. There are so many so called tuners out there that are only concerned about making power. What people don't understand is that is the easiest part about being a tuner. It is the start up, the driveability, the snapeness of the throttle, the fuel occonomy, being able to have corrections for temperature and altitude changes Oh and not to mention trying to get a radical motor combination to pass emissions. There are thousands of people who could probably hit a few key strokes and make power but only a few of us that can do all of the above.
:smile:

We're not worthy...we're not worthy..:wink:

Radical.....

 

[s14_tat]

hmmmm the only time i would ever hear my walbro is during its initial priming with the engine off. once the engine is on, i wouldn't hear from it, and i've driven over 500 miles at a time, and i've put on 60K miles on the pump ever since i put it in. one of hte best pumps for the money period.

just because the pump cost little money doesn't make it cheap. walbro is proven performance that supra, evo, sti, dsm, and 240 guys uses for many many years with no complaints.

the walbro 255 lt/hr can support 600hp on standard voltage and even higher than that with a fuel pump booster.