I've been reading a lot of info on "black box" and "event data recorders" lately. Does anyone know if the NSX has one of these things inside of it? I don't think it does. I've always viewed these devices (and systems like onstar even more so) as a privacy invasion.
Black box recorder?
- Thread starter AndyNSX
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OF COURSE it has one: any car with AIRBAGS *must* have one.
Airbag deployment requires constant recording of approximately the previous 5 seconds....without *recording* speed, brake pedal, throttle position, crash sensors, seat-belt and maybe TCS/ABS info...otherwise, the SRS computer would have no way to know when to deploy the airbags.
This information can be subpoenaed and used against you. Generally, in response to a serious accident or high value accident.
If you want to remove the "black box" you must remove the SRS computer and throw it in the trash.
Drew
I've tried to get Zublin to make a SRS flash memory eraser upon every cycling of main power. So far this has fallen on deaf ears...I'd pay $100 for that!
/http://www.expertlaw.com/library/accidents/auto_black_boxes.html
Airbag deployment requires constant recording of approximately the previous 5 seconds....without *recording* speed, brake pedal, throttle position, crash sensors, seat-belt and maybe TCS/ABS info...otherwise, the SRS computer would have no way to know when to deploy the airbags.
This information can be subpoenaed and used against you. Generally, in response to a serious accident or high value accident.
If you want to remove the "black box" you must remove the SRS computer and throw it in the trash.
Drew
I've tried to get Zublin to make a SRS flash memory eraser upon every cycling of main power. So far this has fallen on deaf ears...I'd pay $100 for that!
/http://www.expertlaw.com/library/accidents/auto_black_boxes.html
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drew said:
Not true. The SRS computer does not need info on the 5 previous seconds to determine when/if to deploy airbags. It uses the specific sensors which detect sudden deceleration to fire them. The recording are there (supposedly) to help airbag manufacturers to design even better SRS systems. Accident reconstruction has also used the infomation.
I have always wondered how airbags do not deploy when the vehicle is stationary or travelling low speeds....
There are many reasons for keeping a history: to smooth out artifacts, ensure consistancy and the information is used for CPI too.
Speed is measured in distance over TIME, without a recorded history the SRS would have little idea what is going on.
**
Airbag Thresholds (http://www.airbag-law.com/)
Airbag injuries are frequently caused because the airbag should not have deployed in the crash. Airbag systems are controlled principally by design thresholds which dictate when and under what circumstances the bags are to deploy. Frontal airbags are designed to only deploy in frontal crashes, not side impacts, rear impacts, or rollovers. First Generation frontal airbags were designed to never deploy at speeds generally below six-and-a-half mph, the so-called no-fire threshold, and always deploy at speeds generally above 13 mph, the so-called must-fire threshold. The gray zone, the difference between the no-fire and must-fire threshold, was built into the system to allow variability. As a result of the airbag thresholds and variability of the manufacturing and quality control, airbags frequently deployed in crashes when they should not have.
Interesting links:
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/08/07/nhtsa-creating-universal-standard-for-automotive-black-box/
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/02/black_boxes_states.html
Seems to be much confusion here, maybe this will help!
This is how the SRS system is deployed;
Operational Sequence as follows: (1991 service manual)
(1) Bam! The cowl sensor activates, and one or both dash sensors activate.
(2) Electrical energy is supplied by the airbag inflator by the battery, or the backup power if the battery voltage is too low (Back up power unit and the cowl sensor are located inside the SRS control unit)
(3) Smack! Airbag deployment.
According to the maintenance manual at least the cowl and one dash sensor must be activated simultaneously for at least 0.002 seconds in order for the airbag to be deployed.
Indicated speed is not a factor in the operation of this system. If you hit something hard enough the cowl sensor will be waiting for input from the dash sensor and if you can set off a dash sensor you’re not going to be overly concerned about who’s at fault.
Not so sure about the 5 second thing, this is not a compliant EDR vehicle. However; the amount of information salvageable from the NSX SRS control unit and ECU after an accident is unknown. If the TCS control unit is removed from the car or the connection to the TCS control unit is disconnected all of the stored data in the memory is erased. Removing the clock fuse will reset the ECU. I don’t know enough about the SRS control unit to determine if it can in fact store information and or be cleared after power is removed ( remember this thing has enough juice to deploy the airbag if there's not enough power provided by the car). SRS fuse is located behind the driver’s side kick panel behind the hood release. Drew don’t stop, keep digging and I’ll keeping digging. Until we know for sure, we need to hammer down and find out if the NSX is equipped with anything that stores retrievable data about our personal use of our personal vehicles.
Relevant reading;
EDR/SDM/Black Box laws by state.
http://www.ncsl.org/programs/lis/privacy/blackbox05.htm
Since the 1970s, the federal National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has been using the data from the EDRs to gather statistical data about car crashes. NHTSA spokesman Ray Tyson estimates that 65 percent to 90 percent of all new vehicles have the boxes.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2006/02/16/DI2006021601781.html
Non-NSX (but if you own another vehicle, you should read it!)
Most new cars have an EDR integrated into the advanced airbag system, older cars may not. Locally here in Virginia there is a man on trial and his 1995 BMW is testifying against him. BMW black box is located in the transmission tunnel.
http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=108755&ran=48188
If you own a GM product built after 1993 you are more than likely an owner of an EDR. If you own a Saturn, Hummer H2, Hummer H3, or a Saab 9-7X you’ve got an EDR installed. Love the new Cadillac XLR Roadster; it comes with an EDR/Black box. “Z06 owners are hosed!” The kink below is a listing of domestic cars that have an EDR that can be downloaded.
Lots of good info and links to get everyone started.
http://www.harristechnical.com/cdr.htm
I currently have two other cars I know have EDR’s installed. (I’m just happy about that).
Feel free to give me a hard time about anything I’ve written here. This is to benefit all!
Dwight
This is how the SRS system is deployed;
Operational Sequence as follows: (1991 service manual)
(1) Bam! The cowl sensor activates, and one or both dash sensors activate.
(2) Electrical energy is supplied by the airbag inflator by the battery, or the backup power if the battery voltage is too low (Back up power unit and the cowl sensor are located inside the SRS control unit)
(3) Smack! Airbag deployment.
According to the maintenance manual at least the cowl and one dash sensor must be activated simultaneously for at least 0.002 seconds in order for the airbag to be deployed.
Indicated speed is not a factor in the operation of this system. If you hit something hard enough the cowl sensor will be waiting for input from the dash sensor and if you can set off a dash sensor you’re not going to be overly concerned about who’s at fault.
Not so sure about the 5 second thing, this is not a compliant EDR vehicle. However; the amount of information salvageable from the NSX SRS control unit and ECU after an accident is unknown. If the TCS control unit is removed from the car or the connection to the TCS control unit is disconnected all of the stored data in the memory is erased. Removing the clock fuse will reset the ECU. I don’t know enough about the SRS control unit to determine if it can in fact store information and or be cleared after power is removed ( remember this thing has enough juice to deploy the airbag if there's not enough power provided by the car). SRS fuse is located behind the driver’s side kick panel behind the hood release. Drew don’t stop, keep digging and I’ll keeping digging. Until we know for sure, we need to hammer down and find out if the NSX is equipped with anything that stores retrievable data about our personal use of our personal vehicles.
Relevant reading;
EDR/SDM/Black Box laws by state.
http://www.ncsl.org/programs/lis/privacy/blackbox05.htm
Since the 1970s, the federal National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has been using the data from the EDRs to gather statistical data about car crashes. NHTSA spokesman Ray Tyson estimates that 65 percent to 90 percent of all new vehicles have the boxes.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2006/02/16/DI2006021601781.html
Non-NSX (but if you own another vehicle, you should read it!)
Most new cars have an EDR integrated into the advanced airbag system, older cars may not. Locally here in Virginia there is a man on trial and his 1995 BMW is testifying against him. BMW black box is located in the transmission tunnel.
http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=108755&ran=48188
If you own a GM product built after 1993 you are more than likely an owner of an EDR. If you own a Saturn, Hummer H2, Hummer H3, or a Saab 9-7X you’ve got an EDR installed. Love the new Cadillac XLR Roadster; it comes with an EDR/Black box. “Z06 owners are hosed!” The kink below is a listing of domestic cars that have an EDR that can be downloaded.
Lots of good info and links to get everyone started.
http://www.harristechnical.com/cdr.htm
I currently have two other cars I know have EDR’s installed. (I’m just happy about that).
Feel free to give me a hard time about anything I’ve written here. This is to benefit all!
Dwight
Ok let me clarify what I meant.......yes there is something that will show data with the airbag assuming that the car was not completely destroyed and the device is still retrievable..........As far as a device where the government can monitor your every move or hear what you say....then the answer is no.............I had a guy ask me that when I use to work at American Honda Motor Corp...........my supervisor told me that Honda has never used it. So that wacko that called me saying big brother is watching us had his questioned answered.
I’m going to have to go with Ed on this one; there’s no indication from the service manual, technical bulletins, NHSTA posted history, or any article anywhere that suggest that the NSX or any other Acura other than the MDX ever had an EDR/SDM/Black box installed prior to 2005. In fact most of what I’ve read about the NSX has lead be to believe that it has a kind of "Gold Fish memory"; if you should disconnect the battery or any component attached, it will lose any stored memory. If the SRS has to deploy the airbag using stored power; I don’t get the impression that much will be stored for very long.
Why would you care if it does?
Planning on hitting someone at 150+?
Planning on hitting someone at 150+?
Apparently you don’t understand how the legal system works here in America;
(no disrespect towards Canadians)
1) You’re driving an exotic car
2) You’re in an accident
3) Unless you hit another exotic car, it will more than likely be perceived that you were at fault.
4) If you do hit another exotic car, it will more than likely be perceived that you and the other driver were racing.
5) Evidence is evidence. If someone can prove that you were in violation of the law (even one per hour above the posted speed limit) just before the accident you’re doomed (Law suits and criminal charges).
6) You pay! Because people in America love to sue!
Dwight
No Accidents and no tickets! How's your driving?
(no disrespect towards Canadians)
1) You’re driving an exotic car
2) You’re in an accident
3) Unless you hit another exotic car, it will more than likely be perceived that you were at fault.
4) If you do hit another exotic car, it will more than likely be perceived that you and the other driver were racing.
5) Evidence is evidence. If someone can prove that you were in violation of the law (even one per hour above the posted speed limit) just before the accident you’re doomed (Law suits and criminal charges).
6) You pay! Because people in America love to sue!
Dwight
No Accidents and no tickets! How's your driving?
with who???
Folks, I don't know how to explain this any more clearer:
<b>You CANNOT have an airbag system without it. </b>
I actually checked with two engineers who design active safety systems for cars. You're talking about a completely different device, the sensing and diagnostic module for the airbag, which is completely different than an Event Data Recorder. For the last few years, Virtually of new cars have airbags but only 60-65% have black box recorders.
For example, the Lamborghini Diablo has airbags and (also the needed device to trigger them), but that is not a "black box". Lamborghini introduced the use of black boxes to their vehicles in the 2002 Murcielago.
For example, the Lamborghini Diablo has airbags and (also the needed device to trigger them), but that is not a "black box". Lamborghini introduced the use of black boxes to their vehicles in the 2002 Murcielago.
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Black boxes typically infer OEM on-board data logging/recorder of some sort, as would be found in newer GM vehicles for example.
The NSX does not have one.
It does however, come with a basic SRS system in order to meet federal regulations, which consists of two MEMS X/Y accelerometers mounted under the dash near the chassis fender seams and an SRS controller mounted just behind the ash tray.
While I cannot say for certain specific to this ECU, in general be in no way surprised if it has *minimum* on-board EEPROM/flash memory (even if just a few data registers) which a competent accident investigator could use to at least obtain the delta velocity and thus calculate the speed of impact and thus accident severity.
Several white papers are available to that effect for those whom are interested. Their have been successful cases whereas data has been both retrieved and legally used to aid both prosecution and defense from even seamingly damaged non-functional PCB boards using run of the mill electronics diagnostic procedures.
The NSX does not have one.
It does however, come with a basic SRS system in order to meet federal regulations, which consists of two MEMS X/Y accelerometers mounted under the dash near the chassis fender seams and an SRS controller mounted just behind the ash tray.
While I cannot say for certain specific to this ECU, in general be in no way surprised if it has *minimum* on-board EEPROM/flash memory (even if just a few data registers) which a competent accident investigator could use to at least obtain the delta velocity and thus calculate the speed of impact and thus accident severity.
Several white papers are available to that effect for those whom are interested. Their have been successful cases whereas data has been both retrieved and legally used to aid both prosecution and defense from even seamingly damaged non-functional PCB boards using run of the mill electronics diagnostic procedures.
You can always call Acura Client Services and they will tell you the same thing I told you guys. That is straight from the horses mouth. The only reason why I know is because I had one weirdo call me about that and I had to ask my supervisor.
I'll bet my collision reconstruction experience, depositions and court certified expert status against yours.
I actually studied this, worked in the field and investigated some 1500 collisions.
YOUR TURN.
Drew
EDIT: In interest of disclosure, it has been ~15 years since I've done reconstruction. I'm getting old and the specifics are getting hazy, if not dark. My source notes have been left long behind on my skipping through careers over the years. I looked for them in regards to this discussion, but you can only keep so much stuff. The SRS standards have gone though incredible revision over the years...almost nothing of the old stuff migrated to the 'Net.
I have not interrogated an NSX SRS box nor investigated a collision with an NSX during my stint (they were very rare at the time). But I can't imagine it would operate any differently than any other SRS box that was manufactured at the time.
At the time I was doing this, the manufacturers would actually respond to collision scenes and tow yards on airbag deployed vehicles. They would actually collect the information. It wasn't used in court at the time either because it was so new and untested.
If some folks are going to insist that the NSX is different than any other car...well, they win.
I actually studied this, worked in the field and investigated some 1500 collisions.
YOUR TURN.
Drew
EDIT: In interest of disclosure, it has been ~15 years since I've done reconstruction. I'm getting old and the specifics are getting hazy, if not dark. My source notes have been left long behind on my skipping through careers over the years. I looked for them in regards to this discussion, but you can only keep so much stuff. The SRS standards have gone though incredible revision over the years...almost nothing of the old stuff migrated to the 'Net.
I have not interrogated an NSX SRS box nor investigated a collision with an NSX during my stint (they were very rare at the time). But I can't imagine it would operate any differently than any other SRS box that was manufactured at the time.
At the time I was doing this, the manufacturers would actually respond to collision scenes and tow yards on airbag deployed vehicles. They would actually collect the information. It wasn't used in court at the time either because it was so new and untested.
If some folks are going to insist that the NSX is different than any other car...well, they win.
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