Budget Tires

[KingsCourt]

I've been looking at uprgrading the stock wheels on my black '93. I haven't decided totally on what route I'll be taking, but as far as wheel sizes, they most likely will be either 17/18 (ideally what I want), or 18/18. Two tires that always come up as possibilities regardless of the various wheel/tire combinations I come up with, are the Hankook Ventus K104, Kuhmo Ecsta MX, and the Falken GR Beta FK451. They all seem to be budget tires, and I've heard pretty good reviews for the Falkens and the Kuhmos.

Does anybody out there have any first hand experience with the Hankooks. I always regarded them as really trashy tires, but recently heard a good report and just wanted to get some impressions from you guys.

Any first hand knowledge on any of the above 3 wheels would be appreciated.

 

[TigerNSX]

I've been looking at uprgrading the stock wheels on my black '93. I haven't decided totally on what route I'll be taking, but as far as wheel sizes, they most likely will be either 17/18 (ideally what I want), or 18/18. Two tires that always come up as possibilities regardless of the various wheel/tire combinations I come up with, are the Hankook Ventus K104, Kuhmo Ecsta MX, and the Falken GR Beta FK451. They both seem to be budget tires, and I've heard pretty good reviews for the Falkens.

Does anybody out there have any first hand experience with the Hankooks. I always regarded them as really trashy tires, but recently heard a good report and just wanted to get some impressions from you guys.

Any first hand knowledge on any of the above 3 wheels would be appreciated.

Regardless of what people think or say, I think that Kuhmo MXs are amazing. I currently have a S03, but for some reason, I just love the MX that I had used previously more. I also heard good things about both K104 and FK451.

A lot of people who autoX also use MX, and they seem to rave about them.

 

[Jett]

Re: Tires

Another Kumho tire I am considering for future NSX duty is the Kumho Ecsta ASX. The wear rating is a whopping 420 and they had great reviews on Tirerack. I drive the NSX frequently, occasionally on trips of 1000 miles and/or in bad weather, so the high wear rating and all-weather designation is appealing to me. My driving style is moderate. Three days ago I ordered a set of the ASX's for my other car (Mustang) which needs new shoes. Total cost from Tirerack was $425, which included four tires ($98 ea.) and drop shipping to the installer ($33). They arrived in two days, and will be installed today. I expect the installer to charge me $100 for mounting and balancing, so that should yield a final price, installed, including taxes, of $530 for a set of four, out the door. If they perform well on the Mustang I will probably try a set on the NSX the next time I need tires.

I am currently running a mixed set of tires on the NSX, Dunlop SP Sport FM901s on the rear and Michelin Pilot SX MXX3s on the front. Tire sizes are stock both rear and front. All tires were installed in new condition on the same day. Alignment was performed to stock 1994 specs at the same time. The Dunlops have horrible reviews, but they came new on a set of used OEM wheels that I purchased for the NSX, so I decided to try them. I have about 5000 miles on them so far, and don't have any gripes with them. They seem to be wearing fast; nothing unusual. I had the Michelins installed at the same time. I was told that they had been discontinued. I'm not sure if that meant discontinued in that size, or discontinued altogether. The Michelins are a little softer than the Dunlops. I don't have any complaints with the Michelins. They are wearing quicker on the inside; again nothing unusual.
I will post a review for the Kumhos after I have a chance to evaluate them. I have been happy with the Dunlop FM901s, which are probably a little better on the rear than they would be on the front, and the Michelins, which are probably a little better on the front than they would have been on the rear.

///Hold your flames please. Not interested in any comments like, "Gasp! I can't believe you are installing (insert name of tire that you have never had but still don't like) instead of (insert expensive tire name here), which is the only tire I would install!" You also probably only drive the car on weekend nights to go profiling, on sunny Sundays, or occasionally to work on Friday if the weather is nice.///

 

[NetViper]

You did not mention the Yoko ES100's. I found them to be pretty good and they are very inexpensive. Not sure if they make them in your size, but it is something to look for.

 

[NSX-Racer]

Re: Tires

I had the Michelins installed at the same time. I was told that they had been discontinued. I'm not sure if that meant discontinued in that size, or discontinued altogether.

The MXX 3 isn't produced any more in all sizes. Michelin has some various new kinds of Pilot Sport tires instead.

You find more about these in this thread .

 

[TigerNSX]

In terms of dry grip level, Kumho MX grips far better than ES 100 does (I have used them on my other car). I believe that many folks who autoX their cars may agree on this.

 

[KingsCourt]

The SO3 seems to be the ultimate aftermarket tire, and for TigerNSX to even mention it in the same breath as the Kuhmo MX give me hope that you don't have to spend a bunch to get a good tire.

Comparing TireRack prices for the two in a very popular size (265/35/18):
Bridgestone SO3 --- $265
Kuhmo MX --------- $167

Pretty substantial.

 

[TigerNSX]

Yes, it seems that a lot of folks are turned off by the image of Kumho for producing budget tires. Nevertheless, people who have used both MX and S03 will testify that MX is an impressive tire for the price.

 

[nsxtasy]

Another Kumho tire I am considering for future NSX duty is the Kumho Ecsta ASX. The wear rating is a whopping 420 and they had great reviews on Tirerack. I drive the NSX frequently, occasionally on trips of 1000 miles and/or in bad weather, so the high wear rating and all-weather designation is appealing to me.
.
.
.
You also probably only drive the car on weekend nights to go profiling, on sunny Sundays, or occasionally to work on Friday if the weather is nice.///

Are you using those tires in snow, or just in rain? One of the biggest misunderstandings that people have about all-season tires are that they think they are better in rain than high-performance "summer tires", and that simply isn't true. Many of the top high-performance summer tires (including the S-03, the Kumho MX, and the Yokohama ES100) are superb in rain, as good as almost anything out there.

All-season tires are "compromise" tires that are designed to work in a wide range of temperatures and conditions. In warm temperatures and on dry or wet pavement, they are not as good as a "summer tire" but not as bad as a pure winter tire. Similarly, in frigid temperatures and on snow and ice, they are not as good as a winter tire but not as bad as a summer tire.

If you're not driving your NSX in snow, you would be much better off with a high-performance tire than an all-season tire. If you ARE driving your NSX in snow, well, all-season tires might fit your needs (but if you do it often, you really ought to consider having two sets of tires, a set of winter tires and a set of summer tires).

I am currently running a mixed set of tires on the NSX, Dunlop SP Sport FM901s on the rear and Michelin Pilot SX MXX3s on the front.

This is a very, very bad idea. Using different tires on the front and the rear makes the handling unpredictable. Depending on the pavement surface, one minute the front may be gripping better, producing oversteer, and the next minute the rear may be gripping better, producing understeer. Definitely NOT recommended.

I know a lot of people who are willing to sacrifice performance in order to save money on tires and are using either the Kumho MX or the Yokohama ES100. Both offer good "bang for the buck", while not offering the same performance capabilities as the best tires out there, like the Bridgestone S-03, the Goodyear F1 GS-D3, or the Michelin Pilot Sport PS2. In the smaller sizes, the ES100 is significantly less expensive than the MX, but that is not as true with the larger sizes.

 

[PoohBEAR]

TOYO T1.........isn't bad. Any input on this? I've used a couple of set of S03 prior, it is okay.

 

[nsxtasy]

TOYO T1.........isn't bad. Any input on this?

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45938

 

[titaniumdave]

I really like the Kumho MX tires too, great tire for the price and a decent all around dry tire, very predictable on the track and good wear with 1.2+ degrees of camber, toe set to factory minimum.

I like the Yoko ES-100 for a wet weather tire, very good traction in the rain. Not too much fun on the track though, very easy to 'over-drive' these tires.

 

[Jett]

Tires

Well, I am currently running the Kumhos on my other car (Mustang GT convertible), a car which is notorious for poor snow traction. Still, that is my "snow car." (The guys at work ask me which "four-wheel drive vehicle" I am driving when it snows.) Living in Northern Virginia I can manage without dedicated snow tires. If I lived in Pennsyltucky or points north of there it would probably be a different story. So for the Mustang I needed something better in the snow than the OE "Gatorbacks" I was running previously. After about 3500 miles with the Ecstas now I can tell that they do a lot better even in the rain than the Gatorbacks. I avoid driving the NSX in the snow or salt. Although I have not tried the Ecstas on the NSX yet, I may do so in the future, if I can find a suitable set in the proper sizes. I drive a lot, approximately 36K miles a year, so finding a long-wearing tire that performs well and is less expensive is more important to me than it used to be. A couple of years ago, when I drove only about 12K miles a year, it was less of an issue.

And insofar as mixing tire brands, the current set I am running (Dunlop rear, Michelin front) may be the best handling set of tires I have had on the NSX yet. I purchased the car used with Pirelli P-zeros, which made the car "dart" during lane changes on the freeway. I really didn't like them. When those went, I had Dunlop SP 8000s if I recall correctly. I am generally satisfied with Dunlops overall, as I feel they are a sturdier tire than most other brands. Stronger sidewalls and better wear in my experience. The Dunlops seem to hold up better near the end of their life than the other brands do. The set of used OEM NSX wheels (year 2000, polished aluminum finish) which I purchased to replace the stock gunmetal gray wheels came with a new, never used pair of Dunlop FM901s for the rear. The FM901s have horrible ratings for road noise on tirerack, but since I like Dunlops, and since I had them and they were NEW, I decided to try them anyway when the SP8000s wore out. I had NTB install them on the rear with Michelin Pilot MXX3s on the front. The Michelins were chosen because they were available in the correct stock size and because NTB still had a pair in the warehouse. It also didn't hurt that they marked down the price because the tires had been discontinued. And although I am aware that NTB is in the business to sell tires, neither the counter guy nor the installer nor the front-end aligner said anything against running the two different brands. So although that is not conclusive proof that it is "okay" it does favor that conclusion. After about 5000 miles this combination has been great, no worries. Tight handling, no darting, predictable. Even the supposed noise from the Dunlops has not been a problem, probably because the engine is behind the driver and therefore masks some road noise. The Michelins in the front are quiet, having a very "traditional" tread design.

I think that it IS possible to mix dissimilar tires and have some combinations that are undesirable, but I don't think that is necessarily always the outcome. However, it is just simpler to say "don't mix them" and that probably helps people avoid some problems with truly dissimilar tires. I also think that some of this "don't mix them" philosophy is bleedover from the "don't mix radial and bias-ply" days. Finally, my goal was to TRY this set, since I already owned the rear tires anyway. So it was going to cost me $60 for mounting and balancing to TRY them. And they are working out fine.

In conclusion, let me also say that my opinions are not based on what some guy somewhere said. They are based on my own personal experience with the specific tires in question. Also, I am not trying to tell anyone what they should or should not do. I am merely writing about my own experiences.

All tires I have mentioned in this post have been either exact stock sizes or ten millimeters larger than stock all way around, as it is easier to find a pair of fronts for the NSX that are ten millimeters larger than stock then buy a pair of rears that are ten millimeters over to match.

 

[KingsCourt]

SUPER STREET, which is one of the "tuner" magazines, did a tire comparison in the current issue (April 2005) that was really good. They compared more than just 3 tires the way Tire Rack does. They directly compared like 12 or so. Every tire that I'm considering wasn't on the list, but a few were. The test was totally professional, with professional drivers, and was actually done at the TireRack facility, I think mainly for the wet-testing capability. The results encouraged my interest in finding an economical tire that performs well.

We all have different priorities and preferences, but personally dry performance is what matters to me. I don't willingly and intentionally take the NSX in the rain, and if I get caught in the rain I'm sure not driving around like a maniac. If I used my NSX as a daily driver, maybe I would be more interested in wet performance, but I don't.

The 3 tires that I'm considering for the future (that were on the list) are the Goodyear F1 GS-D3, the Kuhmo MX, and the Hankook Ventus Sport K104. I looked at just those 3 and just compared dry performance. I was suprised by the results. I expected the highly regarded Goodyear to outperform the Kuhmo and especially the Hankook. That was not the case. In fact the Goodyear didn't come in #1 in any of the dry performance tests, compared to the other two. The differences were minimal (as expected), but I thought the slight advantages would have gone to the Goodyears. Looking at DRY SKIDPAD, DRY LAP TIME, DRY SLALOM, and DRY BRAKING, the KUHMOs came in first in 3 tests, the Hankooks came in first in the other test, and the Goodyear failed to top any of the dry categories. Interestingly enough, the first place that Hankook won was in the DRY LAP TIME! So for me and my perspective, the Hankook is not a crappy tire, which is how I regarded it until recently. I was already turned on to the Kuhmo MX, and now the Hankook K104 is definitely in the mix for me.

Here is my abbreviated summary of the dry results for the above mentioned tires:

DRY SKID PAD:
1) 0.959 Kuhmo
2) 0.932 Hankook
3) 0.929 Goodyear

DRY LAP:
1) 29.695 Hankook
2) 29.754 Goodyear
3) 29.761 Kuhmo

DRY SLALOM:
1) 4.147 Kuhmo
2) 4.167 Goodyear
3) 4.186 Hankook

DRY BRAKING:
1) 82.3 Kuhmo
2) 83.4 Hankook
3) 84.3 Goodyear

Bottom Line: The Goodyear is pretty much regarded as a very good tire, with very good performance. Therefore, how bad can the Kuhmo and the Hankook be? Worth considering? -- I think so. Is it a crime to put them on the NSX? -- I don't think so.

For me, when I upgrade my wheels, I will most likely be doing 215/35/18 up front, and all the "highly regarded" tires such as the Goodyear F1s and Bridgestone S03s don't come in that size. Therefore I was trying to evaluate the tires that do come in that size, and most were the "cheaper" brands. I thought I was going to have to "settle" for one of these cheaper brands, but maybe it was just a blessing that I had to consider them and realize that they are OK. The $aving$ is pretty substantial.

The closest the "highly regarded" tires come to what I need is 225/35/18, and there is a good potential of rubbing, and I really don't want that.

Now I just wish threadwear figures meant something from brand to brand, where you could directly compare across brands.

Check out the current SUPER STREET issue, and see all the results for yourself. See how your tires compare.

 

[NSX-Racer]

Sometimes you can save some work when you look at other threads . Tiger already posted the long version of this test... :wink:

 

[nsxtasy]

And although I am aware that NTB is in the business to sell tires, neither the counter guy nor the installer nor the front-end aligner said anything against running the two different brands. So although that is not conclusive proof that it is "okay" it does favor that conclusion.

More likely, it favors the conclusion that the installer and the front-end aligner both don't know much about tires.

However, it is just simpler to say "don't mix them" and that probably helps people avoid some problems with truly dissimilar tires.

Nope.

I also think that some of this "don't mix them" philosophy is bleedover from the "don't mix radial and bias-ply" days.

Nope.

Finally, my goal was to TRY this set, since I already owned the rear tires anyway. So it was going to cost me $60 for mounting and balancing to TRY them. And they are working out fine.

Glad to hear that you're happy with them. I would never take that chance; I care about getting the best handling out of my NSX, and wouldn't want to do something that makes that handling less predictable...

 

[Dave Hardy]

Mixed tires can work, but it is a risk. An example of drastically different tires getting the desired results - I know a guy who autocrosses a stock class A3 Golf. It is a horribly underpowered, horribly overweight monstrosity. He tried the usual tricks of messing with shock settings, toeing the rear out, etc, and just couldn't get the thing to oversteer the way he liked. On a whim, he took the Hoosiers off of the back and replaced them with the POS street tires that came on the car. He left the Hoosiers on the front. He got faster. Going from 225 Hoosiers all around to 225 Hoosiers on front and 185 Roadmasters on the back worked for him.

If you just want to go to NTB, get a stock alignment and a set of decent tires, then I agree to just go with a matched set. If you're trying to squeeze more performance, then you have to be willing to experiment. Remember though that it is all a compromise.

 

[nsxtasy]

Yes, exactly.

There may indeed be times when mixing tires - INTENTIONALLY - can give you the results you're looking for. But they tend to be for very specific purposes, most often in competition, which is usually characterized by far more controlled and consistent conditions than you would find on the street. Even then, you need to understand what you're trying to do, and how the mismatched tires will accomplish your objectives.

For street use, though, most cars (including the NSX) are designed to exhibit certain predictable handling characteristics. The design takes place under the assumption that the same make and model of tires are used on both front and rear. You can experiment with mixing tires, but the chances are that different model tires will perform differently under at least some conditions (and you probably haven't tested them in all circumstances, so you won't know exactly which conditions those are). When they DO perform differently, that can change the grip and balance and handling. You are adding a variable that was not there to begin with. If the mismatched tires perform similarly in a lot of circumstances, that reduces the changes caused by this variable. But you can eliminate that variable entirely by getting the same tires on the front and rear.

 

[Vegas Boy]

I have the Khumo Ecstas on my NSX right now, they are just fine.
I have Toyo Proxes T1 and Falkens on other 2 cars. IMO, the Toyos are
noticeably better handling tires, the Falkens and Khumos about the same.
But the Khumos are not bad, just not quite as good as the Toyos, but
much cheaper. But I dont track the car, so my needs may be different.

 

[nsxot1c]

as for your original question... i have the hankook k104's on my track wheels and have had no problems yet... they actually seem to handle pretty good... They've also lasted quite well so far..

 

[Jett]

Can you hear me now?

NSXtasy, I was trying to avoid a flame war, and discuss this issue very carefully without all of the "Well, you should do this, because that is what I would do" nonsense. But your last response was way over the top.Please refer to the bottom of my first post in this thread, where I took pains to try and fend off you busybody types. If you bother to actually read the posts before volunteering your opinion, you will see that I was neither seeking your advice nor telling you what you should do. In my second post, I was again careful with my language, attempting to not incite a flame war, but rather have a rational discussion, not with you about what you would do, but rather with people WHO MAY HAVE ACTUALLY OWNED THE TIRES BEING DISCUSSED!!! All to no avail. I see you have over 16,000 posts here. What are you, the Cliff Claven of NSXprime? Do you have an actual life outside of this website? Or are you more like Newman on Seinfeld? Don't go postal on me here amigo. Maybe you are more of a cop groupie, complete with uniform (the genuine article, purchased from the same supplier the Chicago police use!) fake badge, cop shoes, baton, pistol, AND the ex-police cruiser with the faded, almost-but-not-quite invisible shield on the door, but darn the luck, got turned down for the police academy...for the fifth time...and they asked you not to apply again! Or maybe being a pyro is your thing. You listen to your scanner then show up at the scene of the fire often, in fact a little too often, frequently enough that the fire department has had to inform you that they are glad you are a concerned citizen, but they really don't need your help so please stay away. (They are also keeping an eye on you since that last unexplained blaze.)

Let me make myself perfectly clear. I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU THINK. I AM NOT ASKING FOR YOUR ADVICE. PLEASE GO AWAY!

And just for that, I am telling your mother. She will send you to your room and you will be grounded until you are forty! (Two more years.) And just wait 'til your father gets home mister!

 

[NSXDreamer2]

Re: Can you hear me now?

Jett, FYI, nsxtasy is a live person, indeed have a lot of knowledge of the nsx, and he's very helpful. Everyone had different opinion, but I don't find any of the nsxtasy's post objective and offensive. I see that you only had 69 posts right now and you not the one who started this thread. YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL NSXTASY TO GO AWAY!!!!!!! and Yes, for god sake, you are putting a MXX3 in front and FM901 in rear on the nsx and happy with it, is your nsx built differently than mine? I think yours is a front engine, FWD nsx, huh??

 

[NSXDreamer2]

Re: Can you hear me now?

Kingscourt, I have my nsx equipped with Kumho MX in 17/17 setup and have more than 17000 miles now. I also went to track with them 6 times on the stock 15/16 setup. I am very happy with them. In dry, I don't think the S03 had any edge over the MX, however, it is much better wet tire. I had a rare occasion of driving my close to bald MX on wet track, and it feels great. I'm so happy with the performance even my daily driven accord had them on it.

For the money, I could not find a better tire in my life. Hope this help.

 

[NSX-Racer]

Jett, although nsxtasy maybe not always be yours or mine opinion he has all the right to write his comments here IMHO and I would miss them if he could not.

If you don't like to see his posts why don't you just add him to your ignore list (and me too if you like) instead of posting flames against Ken?

 

[nsxot1c]

im not going to take sides because this is not my fight... but i can see why jett was a bit offended... NSXTASY replied a bit straight and to the point... and when i read the response with the NOPE comments i was a bit taken back...

its possible that the real message was just misread and/or the possibility that here online its extremely hard to hear ones tone when speaking.

As I stated before im not going to take sides either way...everyone has the chance to state their own opinion, just be aware if you step on other peoples toes or insult others.

Chris

just my .02