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Comparison to Nissan GT-R

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As this is the area of the forum for comparisons, and I have been an NSX owner now for 10 years, I believe that this is proper to ask in this forum. In the early 90s, a Japanese supercar emerged in the USA, the NSX. It has been about 17 years now and another long awaited supercar, the Nissan GT-R is approaching. I would be interested in other owners take on this car, whether they are considering purchasing, or leaving their NSX for this car. I am a little torn. I love my NSX and especially the commeradarie that surrounds it. I have met many other NSX members at NSXPOs, etc. But I believe this new car deserves some comment. Not stupid juvenile comment like "Nissan Sux Dude" but some genuine comparisons to the NSX and also to what the future NSX replacement might be. In 2004 I needed a sedan type all wheel drive car and immediately went to Acura and there was nothing there and I ended up with an Infiniti G35x which I have been pretty satisfied with. So, I am interested in the NSXers thoughts on the GT-R. I think this is probably the most significant introduction into the US market of a Japanese exotic since the NSX in 1991.
 

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As lame as this sounds, the GTR does not look the part.
Numbers it has, but how often will you get to display those numbers?
To me, the NSX is only 2nd to an Orig GT40 OR f40.
No other car grabs my attention that way. What I am saying I guess is "looks do count for something", and to me the GTR falls way short. Did I mention mid engine?
Am sure the GTR is a great car. But without the numbers, would you even consider it?
Food for thought.......
 
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I love Skylines....I was into Skylines before I found my NSX passion. Too bad it doesn't come in a 6spd manual, or I'd probably be having some serious debates in my head about selling my NSX.

I think the NSX has reached a point in it's life that it's worth holding on to, as a collector/driver...while the GT-R would be just a driver right now. I'm actually considering one as my next DD...once they become common enough that I don't have to pay $10-20k over sticker and my S4 is ready for retirement.

But I wouldn't let go of my NSX for one...maybe a V-Spec version...but again, I like to manually shift...just more fun when I'm out driving....so I'd need to see that too.
 
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I gave up my 2008 delivery spot about 4 weeks ago and am actively pursuing the purchase of my 2nd NSX.
 
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I am very loyal to nissan and I am a honda hater. The NSX is the only Honda that I truly respect. My original dream car was a R32-R33-R34 GTR and I would never even think about a nsx so the answer pretty obvious.

I thought the R35 looked a little funny in photos esp from the front. After I saw it in person at the auto show, my jaw dropped. There is no bad angles of this car in person and it have a very strong presence with a lot of interesting little details in the design.

Most people who have dismissed it in the past have changed their minds when they saw it in person. I'm sure 70% of the naysayers will do the same thing, its very hard to photograph certain cars ( the R8 and GT-R ).
 
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Well i can tell you this. Regardless of how we personally feel towards the new GTR, alot of the GTR guys definitely still love the NSX. On Apr 16th they are having a private event in downtown Atlanta and 200 people are invited to get a first glimpse of the new GTR. My boss has the first Super Silver on order in the Atlanta area and was invited my the owner of the local Nissan dealer to attend. Gave him two invitations and he invited me. The only catch was that we had to take my car to the event:biggrin: He LOVES NSX's. Anyway, alot of the guys who have them on order will be there and are having an after party gathering of some sort and he told them i'd be there with my car(talking to them on the skyline forum) and all were very much wanting to make sure i did bring it. Many had never seen one in person, but i know that's pretty common anyway.
 
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NSX = work of art, probably the greatest automobile ever made.
1st Gen Rxx GTRs = ugly overpowered grocery getters. They only developed a cult following due to the "grass is greener" effect. It's the Japanese equivalent to putting a big motor and 4WD in a Chrysler K-car. bleh.

New GTR, jury is still out but it is kind of fugly in photos. Haven't seen one in the flesh yet.
 
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Gt-r = Monster Truck!
 
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NSX = work of art, probably the greatest automobile ever made.
1st Gen Rxx GTRs = ugly overpowered grocery getters. They only developed a cult following due to the "grass is greener" effect. It's the Japanese equivalent to putting a big motor and 4WD in a Chrysler K-car. bleh.

New GTR, jury is still out but it is kind of fugly in photos. Haven't seen one in the flesh yet.

now putting a base skyline in the same category as a K car is a huge insult. ATLEAST the base skylines are all RWD unlike every other honda ever made, and even the least powerful base model made in 1990 still had 200hp.

Calling the NSX the greatest automobile ever made is being a little too biased in my opinion. There is no denying that it is a damn great car, that is why I own one but I will never ever ever ever own any other honda crap. But I do give respect to every great car out where it came from europe, america, or asia.
 
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The NSX is a great car and has my full respect for it. As evident by my 15 year wait to own this car, it's one of the best cars IMO that has always intrigued me and it's not easy to do that.

However the GTR is a legend in it's own right. Let's not put our NSX so high up on a pedestal that we forgot how great the older GTR's were and still is. The new one I don't like because it's auto only but give me a manual and it would be in my top 3 cars I'd like to own (assuming I'm writing the check for it) F-cars don't count since that is out of my grasp at this time.

Performance wise the new GTR spanks the NSX in every category. But it has yet to be proven over time if it's a winner or another overnight wonder.

We buy cars because it instills emotions. The P-car was fun but did not instill the emotions I wanted so I sold it. The NSX still does and that is why I bought it. The GTR verdict is out but I guarantee you that many GTR owners have as much respect for our car as we do for theirs so let's NOT get into a debate over which is better. Both cars are winners in my book in the $80k range :)


rick
 
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now putting a base skyline in the same category as a K car is a huge insult. ATLEAST the base skylines are all RWD unlike every other honda ever made, and even the least powerful base model made in 1990 still had 200hp.

Calling the NSX the greatest automobile ever made is being a little too biased in my opinion. There is no denying that it is a damn great car, that is why I own one but I will never ever ever ever own any other honda crap. But I do give respect to every great car out where it came from europe, america, or asia.

Just asking, but you do mean, in terms of performance, you think Honda is crap, not the quality and resale of there full line, right? if you are then sure i agree i guess, but having the overall highest resale value just about every year is not handed to you on a plate. You kinda have to earn that. Im sure thats not what you meant, but in case you did, i just wanted to elaborate.
 
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The NSX is an awesome car, but you can't really compare it to the GTR. They are totally different cars and nearly 20 years apart. The GTR performance is simply amazing. Let's hope Honda has come as far in 20 years. All I see is an acura line that keeps getting uglier and even more boring. I question if Honda will ever be able to do another NSX.
 
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I think the NSX comparison to a GTR is tough. But this is how I do it:

I once debated between a 996 Turbo or an 02+ NSX. I choose a 97 NSX because performance was similar, and cheaper and I prefered the color combo I found.

Now the GT-R is comparable to the 997 Turbo... and it is also mid engine, but the GT-R is not. Yet it outdoes the 997 Turbo is many areas. To me the GT-R is a Japanesse made Corvette with AWD. Once you say it like that, its the hands down winner against the Corvette, and probably a tie with the 997 Turbo (Price wise, the GT-R is a greater value however...)

Now GT-R to NSX comparison have little to compare. They are polar opposites yet both acheive different ways of accomplishing the same task. Its MacGyver with all his special tools and techniques versus Doogie Houser (sp) at his purist brilliance... Each go about things in very different manners.

I'd buy a GT-R, but it wouldn't replace my NSX. Then again I'd buy a 911 Turbo and it wouldn't replace my NSX. If I had a GT-R though, I'd replace it with a 911 Turbo :)
 
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Just asking, but you do mean, in terms of performance, you think Honda is crap, not the quality and resale of there full line, right? if you are then sure i agree i guess, but having the overall highest resale value just about every year is not handed to you on a plate. You kinda have to earn that. Im sure thats not what you meant, but in case you did, i just wanted to elaborate.

I do not like honda's philosophy when it comes to building cars. They are a very very stubborn company, they are still sticking to their FWD crap in their premium brand trying to play it off pretending to be a real BMW fighter while infiniti has been building RWD and totally elimated the FWD platform from their premium brand.

The RL is a joke of a car when you compare it to a M45 or the 5 series. Hell even hyundai is eatting honda's lunch now becasue of the new genesis platform. RWD, turbo 4, V6, V8 ? you betcha.

Look how they let the NSX whither away and die a slow quiet death and the same fate is happening to the S2K, that car was sensational when it debut, but they only had 2 small improvements over its what? almost 8-9 year life span? The 350Z had numerous improvements and literally smokes the S2000 now.

All of their cars are generally torqueless and are slow, they make great economy cars with great resale with great finesse, but they lack the power that nissan injects into all of their line up.

Lets talk trucks now? Do they have any full frame trucks with a V8? What honda has is a pretender, basically a raised minivan. When the Titan came out, it was smoking Hemi's left and right but looks nicer, have a better interior, cost less, and better engineering.

And how about NSX? Where is the NSX now, does Honda seriously think that current NSX owners are going to settle for that abomination? They fell so far behind in this game vs Lexus and Nissan by not even knowing where to take the design direction to. While Nissan is already coming out with the V-spec R35 GTR that is currently 15 seconds faster then the prototype ZR-1 Vette when they both were being unofficially timed at the Nurbergring by photographers.

Need I say more why I hated this company since highschool? Give me a S14 over a integra, give me a B13 Se-r over a Civic Si, give me a 3.5 alima over a accord, give me a max over the TL give me a M45 over the RL, give me a Titan over the ridgeline, and give me a 350Z over the S2000 ( not even close with this one esp when you compare the VQ35HR powered ones )

The only cars that honda I feel makes better than nissan is the Honda Fit ( brilliant car ) and the NSX over the Z32 TT, I would put the NSX in the same regards as I do with the GTR.


I would proudly wear a Honda sucks t-shirt while driving my NSX or a NISMO t-shirt. God I get so angry just thinking about Honda. *spit*
*getting off soap box*
 
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The R8 and the GT-R are two cars that have made me slow down modifying (aka pouring money into) my NSX. Soon the LF-A will be out, and that too will be a super hot car, and I am sure that the new NSX/ASCC will be an exciting car if not the replacement we were all hoping for. But here me out here:

1) I think that how fun a car is, is often confused with how fast a car is. The old numbers game for magazine and keyboard jockeys used to be 0-60. Now its a laptime at the Nurburgring. It is so important these days that Aston has a little map of it next the name of the Vantage.

2) While the NSX was a quick car, its accolades never came because it was the fastest thing on the planet. It came becuse of feel. The GT-R laps the Nurburgring real fast, and speed increases fun. But just because a car has a lot of speed doesn't guarantee it will be fun.

3) If given the choice, would you want an ultra-fast car or an ultra-fun car? Because there are many cars that are very fun, including the Mini, the Miata, and others that aren't really that "fast". If you can have fun going 40MPH but need to take another car to 110 MPH to have the same amount of fun, what would you want?

The Italians understand this very well. An F430 or a Murcielago will get your blood pumping when its standing still. It is art on wheels. Inside and out. It is in the mixture of looks, colors, SOUNDS, even the name, it is all designed to stir your emotions, and it does that well. The NSX was one of a few cars that did that for me that was from Japan. Somehow, I just don't feel the same with the GT-R. That dash and interior looks like it was done by an amateur. Look at this. This is beautiful:

865737643_ea1cfb8bbf_o.jpg


SNMYCC42.jpg


This gives me goose bumps.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vkcfuCFv2TA&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vkcfuCFv2TA&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Has anyone heard a GT-R? This is what I always think about. The NSX nor a GT-R nor an LF-A nor an F430 will be my daily driver. I ask that non DD car to just stir my soul. That is its duty. Does it do that? and how well?

Ask yourself that question when you are standing there in front of a GT-R. I don't know what the answer will be, but I will ask myself that when I see one on person. I could care less what it laps the Nordschleife in.
 
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As all of this comes to a head this fall, we are going to see the LF-A and the GT-R enter the market. They are entering a world of Z06, M5, M3, RS4, R8 Carerra, C 6.3 AMG, SL55. This is a strong line up of cars from different manufactures around the world. The problem with each of these cars is that not one of them stirs the soul. If you owned one you would not peak into the garage before you go to bed and stare at it, and you would not go to club gatherings because you owned some of these cars. (I think the Vett is the exception here)

The other "fast" car in our family is a 2006 M5. yes it has 500hp and a V10 that is as fast as you could really want a fast car to be. But I really dislike driving it. Looks like any 5 series and the stupid SMG transmission makes driving the car very frustrating and jerky. It has too many buttons and gagets surrounding the car and it all distracts from just driving the car. It posts fast times around the Ring and has impressive 1/4 mile and 0-60 times. It even gets looks every once in awhile on the road. But....

It is just not a fun car to drive. I look at the GTR much like I do the M5. Wonderful car that just does not stir the soul. it might as well be a tuner version of a G37 in my mind. If I was going to buy an AWD turbo car I would be looking at a STI/EVO and there is a hell of a wide dispersion of price between GT-R and these cars but at least they are offering a 6speed manual and always deliver a very fun, soul stiring ride.

I have always loved the Skylines in the past and I will love them going forward, it is a remarkable car and i hope it does not have the same fate as the quickly depreciating and soul-less M5's

Joe
 
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Your kidding me right? Your going to compare a 200K car's interior to a 69K nissan? That is not really a fare comparison. Also after seeing the GTR's interior in person it definitely have a lot of substance and hefty feel to the materials and the seats are very nice.

I do understand your points about being fun to drive vs being fast, but the GTR was never about being fun to drive, it was always about smashing lap times records and winning races. You can't even put the EVO and STi in the same category as this car anymore. This car puts down 430-460whp and run's 11's stock. The stock GTR only runs 2 seconds off pace from a fully purpose built unlimited AWD class time attack EVO. All while maintaining daily drivable comfort.

This car has presence and 90% of the people who has seen in person will agree. You can never get tired of looking at this cars interesting shapes such as the ducts in the nose, the handle, the kink in the C pillar,the massive brakes, and the jewel like afterburner tail lights.


Dont get me wrong, I love the NSX and I will defend it too death. You can ask Dr.Volkl because i frequently ghost on my350z.com and when they were dissing out the NSX, i joined just to educate them on mislead info. However I wouldn't be biased to the point where I'm blind and believe that NSX is the greatest car ever made. But I will admit that I look forward to every weekend so I can drive my NSX because it is very therapeutical.
 
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I do not like honda's philosophy when it comes to building cars. They are a very very stubborn company, they are still sticking to their FWD crap in their premium brand trying to play it off pretending to be a real BMW fighter while infiniti has been building RWD and totally elimated the FWD platform from their premium brand.

The RL is a joke of a car when you compare it to a M45 or the 5 series. Hell even hyundai is eatting honda's lunch now becasue of the new genesis platform. RWD, turbo 4, V6, V8 ? you betcha.

Look how they let the NSX whither away and die a slow quiet death and the same fate is happening to the S2K, that car was sensational when it debut, but they only had 2 small improvements over its what? almost 8-9 year life span? The 350Z had numerous improvements and literally smokes the S2000 now.

All of their cars are generally torqueless and are slow, they make great economy cars with great resale with great finesse, but they lack the power that nissan injects into all of their line up.

Lets talk trucks now? Do they have any full frame trucks with a V8? What honda has is a pretender, basically a raised minivan. When the Titan came out, it was smoking Hemi's left and right but looks nicer, have a better interior, cost less, and better engineering.

And how about NSX? Where is the NSX now, does Honda seriously think that current NSX owners are going to settle for that abomination? They fell so far behind in this game vs Lexus and Nissan by not even knowing where to take the design direction to. While Nissan is already coming out with the V-spec R35 GTR that is currently 15 seconds faster then the prototype ZR-1 Vette when they both were being unofficially timed at the Nurbergring by photographers.

Need I say more why I hated this company since highschool? Give me a S14 over a integra, give me a B13 Se-r over a Civic Si, give me a 3.5 alima over a accord, give me a max over the TL give me a M45 over the RL, give me a Titan over the ridgeline, and give me a 350Z over the S2000 ( not even close with this one esp when you compare the VQ35HR powered ones )

The only cars that honda I feel makes better than nissan is the Honda Fit ( brilliant car ) and the NSX over the Z32 TT, I would put the NSX in the same regards as I do with the GTR.


I would proudly wear a Honda sucks t-shirt while driving my NSX or a NISMO t-shirt. God I get so angry just thinking about Honda. *spit*
*getting off soap box*

This post is interesting. Yes - Honda is stubborn, particularly about FWD. I don't understand it either. It is silly to criticize the Ridgeline because it isn't a full frame half ton with a V8. I think with sales of full size trucks falling rapidly, Honda's decision to make a truck for the Home Depot crowd looks better every day. And by the way - have you driven one? It is worlds apart from any other truck on the market. It handles like a slightly tall car but has an innovative bed design. It is not based on a minivan.

But is it a reason to "hate" Honda? Nissan is hardly without fault. They took the brilliant 240z and progressively overloaded it until the course correction of the 300ZX. Nissan's Armada and Titan have suffered from poor quality, especially initially. Their V8s are thirsty (GMs are probably better all around).

The original Maxima was a terrific car. Now? Nothing special.

The SE-R has habitually been an also ran in its class. Not sure why you like it so much.

The current M35 or M45 is a fine car - but it has undistinguished looks which must be the only reason I see none on the roads. No more than I see the Acura RL. The Q?

The G35 is a wonderful and beautiful car in coupe form.

The GT-R is an intriguing car and its performance on a course is spectacular. Surely the Porsche engineers are embarrassed how fast the GT-R is.

And although style is a subjective thing - I have always thought the current 350Z looks like a bar of soap.

Brands of cars to hate? Dodge, Toyota (for blandness and no sports cars).

I have low expectations for the NSX replacement. I think it will be too Lexus-like. Japanese Aston Martin instead of Japanese Ferrari.
 
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Lets face it, the NSX is never going to win all the races.

I always say the NSX doesn't do any ONE thing better than all the other cars, what is DOES do is everything very well.

If you want the fastest, best looking, nicest interior, loudest, best handling, etc best look elsewhere.........
 
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As this is the area of the forum for comparisons, and I have been an NSX owner now for 10 years, I believe that this is proper to ask in this forum. In the early 90s, a Japanese supercar emerged in the USA, the NSX. It has been about 17 years now and another long awaited supercar, the Nissan GT-R is approaching. I would be interested in other owners take on this car, whether they are considering purchasing, or leaving their NSX for this car. I am a little torn. I love my NSX and especially the commeradarie that surrounds it. I have met many other NSX members at NSXPOs, etc. But I believe this new car deserves some comment. Not stupid juvenile comment like "Nissan Sux Dude" but some genuine comparisons to the NSX and also to what the future NSX replacement might be. In 2004 I needed a sedan type all wheel drive car and immediately went to Acura and there was nothing there and I ended up with an Infiniti G35x which I have been pretty satisfied with. So, I am interested in the NSXers thoughts on the GT-R. I think this is probably the most significant introduction into the US market of a Japanese exotic since the NSX in 1991.

You are absolutely correct. The GT-R is the second most significant Japanese high end sports car introduced to America after the NSX. Nissan has reset new standards in terms of performance envelope and engineering breakthrough with the new GT-R following the footsteps of Honda. The GT-R is a bargain for such a quality machine. Just looking at all the high end materials and parts in this car is amazing. The parts alone if purchased separately would probably equal close to the value of the car. I don't see how Nissan is making much money selling it at $70,000. If you factor in the upfront cost of R&D, testing and manufacturing infrastructure then it is really a fantastic bargain. If I have the cash, I would buy it now. But, I would not sell my NSX though. The NSX symbolizes technology from Honda F1 dominant race cars. The GT-R symbolizes brute strength dominance period. One is a beautiful light weight mid engine formula street car and the other is a huge thundering powerful beast muscle car. Both are unique just like Shaq and Kobe.
 
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Your kidding me right? Your going to compare a 200K car's interior to a 69K nissan?

Nope. Not doing that at all. I am just saying there are cars that stir you, and ones that don't. Some do it more, some do it less. The Italians have that recipe down extremely well, the Japanese not so well. The NSX still is a car that stirs people, even standing still. I don't know if the GTR will do that. Maybe it will. I don't know.

I do know one thing. Sitting behind a computer or reading a magazine and falling in love with a car that does a really fast 0-60 or 1/4 mile time or the new fantasy fad of lapping the nurburgring well means little to me. I like a car that responds well, follows me, makes me a great driver, puts wind in my hair, sounds good, shifts well, and keeps things exciting. I don't need numbers. That Ferrari I put up as an example does a lot MORE than put up numbers. It just seems like everyone is about numbers these days. I used to be too when I was younger reading Road and Track . I am not like that anymore.
 
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I believed to correctly compared GTR to nsx, one must have driven it... especially the fun to drive part.

I have the prejustice of all these auto manumatic trannys, (DSG, twin clutch etc.) too. but lets face it, technology evolved, everytime I see a stradale, my tongue is still on the floor and drools .. ;) To say the GTR is a fast but boring car is a little more than unfair.

We watched the speed of it from magazines, Nurburing runs, and even numerous Best Motoring/ Hot version runs. GTR's are amazing, and that, is based on the professional drivers' opinion. Tsuchiya aka drift king, driven the car in leisure fun speed and compared with his own nsx-r back to back on same route. He said he didn't feel the GTR being heavy or bulky (which in reality it is.)
 
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The NSX is an awesome car, but you can't really compare it to the GTR. They are totally different cars and nearly 20 years apart. The GTR performance is simply amazing. Let's hope Honda has come as far in 20 years. All I see is an acura line that keeps getting uglier and even more boring. I question if Honda will ever be able to do another NSX.

I 100% agree. As a fan of Honda / Acura for decades, I missed the inspired driving from back when Acura had the slogan, 'Precision crafted performance'. Essentially that was back in the early 1990's when they had the NSX, the really fun to drive 1990 Legend Coupe, and the first round of the Integra GS-R in 1992 and 1993. Then things slowly stared to change, as did their slogan, and eventually we did not have much of anything left when the Integra Type-R was phased out in 2001. Sure, they still made the NSX, but by that time the car was 10 years old and outperformed by most of the cars in its segment. Not only that, but Honda / Acura has been looking like 'the boy that cried wolf' almost every year since the mid 1990's when they started promising a 'new NSX in about 2 years', which is a promise they kept making but never did.

As far as how the NSX compares to the GT-R, it doesn't. The only reason this comparison is being made is because they are both Japanese sports cars that upon introduction revolutionized the high end sports car segment, and proved that the Europeans are not the only ones who know how to make a sports car go fast around a track. Other than that, they really have nothing in common. They are two totally different layouts, two completely different powerplant approaches, two radically different views on vehicle weight, one is all-wheel drive and the other is rear wheel...you see my point. Plus, put bluntly, the GT-R will smoke the NSX. It is just plain fast. The NSX was never the fastest car on the block, even when it came out back in 1990. The GT-R on the other hand is brutally fast in everything it does. Sure, it may not look as exotic, but most performance drivers probably could care less when the track times come out. Plain and simple.

Anyway, I love my NSX. It may be slower than a GT-R, but I still love it because it is a car that just fits me and my driving style. That said, I sure hope that the GT-R is the wake-up call to Honda that, ironically, the NSX was to Europe when it came out. I hope that Honda realizes that they are getting embarassed by Nissan, and they get inspired to make a world-beating performance car again. Honda has way more resources to do it, so they have no excuse except that they are just too lazy. Because the batch of boring and uninspired sedans they make now will do nothing but make them the Japanese version of Oldsmobile if something does not change soon.
 
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I find it interesting that when the F-car owners justification of superiority is based on "emotion" we would roll our eyes. Now when the NSX owners use the same "emotion" argument over the GTR, it now becomes acceptable.

Also in the NYC the ratio of infiniti M cars to the acura RL is at least 50:1 and this is not a gross exaggeration. I would see a RL maybe once a month but I would see 10 M's a day and these are not the same 10 M's either. I travel inter borough at a lot for work.
 
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I find it interesting that when the F-car owners justification of superiority is based on "emotion" we would roll our eyes. Now when the NSX owners use the same "emotion" argument over the GTR, it now becomes acceptable.

Also in the NYC the ratio of infiniti M cars to the acura RL is at least 50:1 and this is not a gross exaggeration. I would see a RL maybe once a month but I would see 10 M's a day and these are not the same 10 M's either. I travel inter borough at a lot for work.

I think it is silly for NSX owners to use "emotion" or "soul" as a knock on the GT-R. It represent's Nissan's vision for a supercar. It certainly has the performance to back it up.

Here in Austin - I doubt I see an Infiniti M car every week. I saw one yesterday for the first time in a long time. I also do not see RLs often. Austin is dominated by BMW sedans. 3 series everywhere. Many M-Bs and Audis. Lots of G35s. Hordes of Camrys and Accords.
 
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