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Coolant Temperature Questions

Joined
4 April 2011
Messages
2,429
Location
Fountain Hills, AZ
First some background on the car;
  • 1991 with 123,xxx miles
  • SOS Stage One build for Aerocharger twin turbos. 800 miles since rebuild
  • SOS WTA intercooler mounted in standard position in front of the lower radiator
  • OEM radiator replaced last year with new Koyorad radiator and running Honda Blue Coolant
  • Current horsepower is 450 on pump and 525 on E98
  • Can bus GaugeArt display

Currently in Arizona it's 100F ambient. I have seen coolant temps on my display at over 210F and thought that maybe the thermostat was failing so I ordered a Stant (part number 48227) which didn't fit. So I put the original back in. Filled and bled the system (twice) and still have high temps, or at least they seem that way to me. Maybe because I now have a digital readout where before the OEM gauge stayed pretty rock solid. Took a drive and the coolant temp ranged from 192F to 200F, depending upon moving or stopped at a light. Oil temp was between 205F and 220F. Ambient temp was 100F. So some questions and possible fixes;


  1. Maybe now that i can see actual readings, don't sweat it. This is normal? What temps do you normally see on a warm day?
  2. Could the t-stat be stuck partially open? Takes around 8 minutes at idle to warm up to 185F and then settles between 192F and 199F.
  3. Radiator fan kicks on at 195F. And if the AC is on, the radiator fan remains on, even if the coolant temp drops below 188F. Is this normal?

I'd like to get the car back on the track but I don't trust coolant temps yet. The intake shroud is tight against the radiator and the OEM fan and shroud are in good shape and working. Just wondering if there is something simple and not too expensive to correct this problem. That is, if there even is a problem. I guess i could;

  1. Move the intercooler farther away from the radiator with spacers to give more room and possible air flow to the radiator
  2. Replace the thermostat regardless
  3. Replace the OEM fan and shroud with a twin SPAL fan and shroud with a new 40A fuse
  4. Replace the relatively new Koyorad with the latest MASIV
  5. Install an oil cooler

I'd like to get this done sooner than later and with as little money as possible. Looking for Hrant, RYU, Coz and DocJon for some assistance. Thanks in advance.
 
Let's break this down into smaller bites. Let me start by asking... remind me again, you are running a vented hood right? You also bypassed the stock radiator fan speed resistor? That's that big white resistor block bolted to the radiator.

Let me also get this straight: You're running a heat exchanger in front of your Koyo? I assume this is for a water to air intercooler, right?

Sorry, I wish I could remember everyone's setup!

Your data is good to have! It gives us a great base to work off.

For some reference, here's my experience. Vented hood, MASiV, stock everything else.
* T-stat opens at 176-178F
* IIRC OEM fans turn on at 184-186F
* ECT is solid at 176-190F on the hottest days. Actually my T-stat works hard because it's always closing and opening because ECT can be too low. Even on the hottest track day ever 115-120F at Thermal my ECT never got over 205-210F
 
Let's break this down into smaller bites. Let me start by asking... remind me again, you are running a vented hood right? You also bypassed the stock radiator fan speed resistor? That's that big white resistor block bolted to the radiator.

Let me also get this straight: You're running a heat exchanger in front of your Koyo? I assume this is for a water to air intercooler, right?

Sorry, I wish I could remember everyone's setup!

Your data is good to have! It gives us a great base to work off.

For some reference, here's my experience. Vented hood, MASiV, stock everything else.
* T-stat opens at 176-178F
* IIRC OEM fans turn on at 184-186F
* ECT is solid at 176-190F on the hottest days. Actually my T-stat works hard because it's always closing and opening because ECT can be too low. Even on the hottest track day ever 115-120F at Thermal my ECT never got over 205-210F

I'll answer your questions, one by one;
  • Yes on the vented hood with ducting
  • Heat exchanger is for the air to water intercooler for IAT control which stays at +30F over ambient
  • I have not bypassed the resistor, What would be the purpose or benefit of doing this?

Looking forward to the fix. And I hope it's not the most expensive option!
 
ok, there's a couple of things going on here.

First problem is to solve low speed vs. high speed cooling. Speed as in MPH motion of the car. Low Speed = Idle to <35mph (think sitting in traffic). High Speed = >35mph

With a vented hood you should have PLENTY of air flow going through your cooling system from inside the bumper and out to the top of the hood vent. Any fan will simply hinder maximum air flow. A fan is only good for conditions where air needs to be forced through and is often only good until 25-35mph. The amount of CFM that is pushed through a radiator with a vented hood increases in orders of magnitude above say 25mph vs. what any SPAL fan(s) can do. I mean.. if you really have time to kill watch this below. Warning it's long and boring.

Bypassing the resistor will allow your stock fan to operate at 14volts at it's normal speed. The resistor drops voltage and hence the speed of the fan because of noise issues the factory didn't want rich people complaining. I run a stock fan with the bypassed resistor. The OEM computer bypasses the resistor above a certain ECT (210-215F IIRC). You're just allowing it to come on sooner. You can certainly run SPALs if you'd like. I know a few of our NSX compadres choose this solution. Honestly, it's my least favorite. Perhaps if you didn't have a vented hood and ducted even...

if you're on an standalone you might also want to verify at what ECT it's telling the fans to come on. You can tell it to come on at 185 like the OEM ECU.

the suggestion above out to help with low speed issues. Try these and let us know!

High speed cooling is more complicated and potentially more expensive. One thing at a time haha

https://youtu.be/0lGFzgaN7GA
 
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First of all thanks for taking the time to assist me. I am running standalone (AEM Series 2) and the tuner is quite good. I don't hear or feel the fan ever go to the slow mode so perhaps he does have it bypassed. It does come on high around 194-196F so I'll see if I can have it come on sooner. I do understand the use of fans and the restrictions they provide both at low speed and above 35mph. As my temps seem to be somewhat stable at all speeds, the issue may be as obvious as can be. Maybe I just need more cowbell, I mean radiator. Damn it.
 
I can't advise on specifics for your car; but, I can provide some observations that may be relevant based upon my fiddling around with the installation of digital fuel injection on a truly vintage engine (think cast iron lump and push rods).

First off, under most circumstances the the coolant temperature is never steady. I suspect that car thermostats tend to be like the thermostat in your home, they are bang - bang controllers. Pretty much either fully closed or fully open (on or off in the case of your home thermostat). I have stuck a thermocouple under the hose that exits from the thermostat on my vintage lump and at idle and low output operation you can definitely see the coolant temperature swinging as the thermostat is going open and then closed. The temperature swing is around 3 - 5 C on that car. The frequency of the swing changes as engine load increases becoming slightly longer at higher loads as the thermostat stays open longer at higher loads. That frequency and the magnitude of the temperature swing will be a function of the temperature setting(s) on the radiator fan, the cooling capacity of the radiator (which is fan and vehicle speed dependent) and the hysteresis in the thermostat. An observation here is that if the thermostat goes fully open and stays fully open you no longer have any active temperature control. If engine load increases further beyond that point the coolant temperature can only go up and the only limit to going up further is an increase in radiator effect (more air flow through the radiator or a bigger radiator).

The short answer here is that if you can see those temperature fluctuations in the coolant, that is a probably a good thing. First, it means that the thermostat is going open and closed (its working) and second the fact that the thermostat goes closed or approaches going closed means that the cooling capacity of the radiator is in excess of the waste heat energy being produced by the engine. According to the FSM, the thermostat starts to open at 76 - 80C and is fully open at 90 C. The low speed rad fan switches on at 84 C and off at 78 C so its dead band overlaps the thermostat dead band so will tend to modulate the swings caused by opening and closing of the thermostat. The fan switches on before the thermostat goes fully open so under some conditions the thermostat may not get fully open reducing the potential temperature swings. Again, short answer is that as long as the temperature is swinging and the upper limit is at or a nudge above the thermostats full open temperature your cooling capacity is exceeding the engines cooling requirement (at that particular engine load). If the coolant temperature goes above the thermostats full open temperature then you have exceeded the control range for the cooling system. That might be OK for short periods of time or as long as you do not exceed the temperature / coolant temperature that results in persistent venting.

Your temperature swings of 192 - 200 F (and up to 210F ) are higher (both the bottom and the top) than what the FSM says for the thermostat operating range. However, the problem may not be the thermostat; but, your temperature measurement system. Temperature sensors, typically RTDs have tolerances that can lead to errors. The other big problem is the formula that your logger or your ECU uses to determine temperature from the sensor resistance measurement. ECUs, loggers etc typically use a 3 point calibration curve to establish the coefficients in a typical 2nd order equation that the ECU uses to calculate the temperature from the resistance. The standard method has a formula named after somebody and there is a Wikipedia page describing the method, I just can't remember the name right now. The problem is that the curve generated by the equation typically does not match the RTD perfectly. As an example, I have attached the resistance curve for my 'vintage' coolant sensor that I measured using a water bath (circle data points). On the same sheet I plotted the resistance calculated from the formula with a three point calibration at 10, 30 and 50C (triangle data points). You can see that at high temperatures the formula generated temperature curve is well below the measured curve. In this case causing a temperature display measurement that is about 10C below the true temperature at 94 C. However, by changing the calibration points (spreading them out or shifting them up or down the measured curve) you can change the shape of the formula generated curve and can generate errors that swing the other way.

View attachment 171186

In the my case, I use the ECU to control the radiator fan. In order to get more accurate fan control I had to move the calibration points to get the calculation curve to more accurate at high temperatures for fan control. The down side to doing that is that it messed up the accuracy of the low temperature measurements which screwed up my cold start and warm up routines. The NSX doesn't have that problem because fan control is provided be a separate dedicated RTD. The temperature sensor for the ECU is used for cold start and warm up control and you check coolant temperature with a separate sensor for the dash gauge.

So, my suggestion is that your first step would be to confirm that you actually have a cooling problem versus a measurement problem. Since you are using an aftermarket ECU, you must have entered a calibration curve for the sensor into the ECU. If it is a three point calibration curve (super common) get the calibration points and then get the formula for the three point curve to figure out whether your calibration curve is generating skewed readings at high temperatures. If it is, you may be able to alter the calibration points to improve the accuracy at higher temperatures. You should also pull your thermostat and do a water bath test to confirm that it is starting to open and fully open at the values in the FSM. It would also be advisable to pull the ECU temperature sensor (if that is where you are getting your gauge art measurement) and do a water bath calibration measurement on it to get a good calibration. If the tiny little curve in the FSM was used to get the calibration points the thickness of the line on the curve is probably > 5 C leading to the potential for significant measurement error at higher temperatures. There are also production variations between sensors that can lead to significant errors in high temperature measurement.

If it turns out that your measurement system is accurate and you truly are running hot somebody else will have to help you with that because I have no experience with that on an NSX. The one solution related observation that I will make is that unless an overheating problem is occurring at low vehicle speeds, different / bigger radiator fans are not going to fix the problem. At 100 km/hr the air flow through the radiator generated by the fans is irrelevant. The fans probably create a slight impediment to air flow at high speeds.
 
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Thanks Old Guy for the very detailed explanation. I did initially test the thermostat and it tested out right at the FSM parameters. I also tested, with thermometers, the actual coolant temps in the overflow and they were true numbers too. So I dug around in the AEM Series 2 configuration settings and found that in Tools/Configuration Outputs/LS8 Radiator Fan #1 , the Function Configuration had the fan coming on at 194F (just what I had been experiencing) and the fan was set to turn off at 205f. My guess is that the off setting was for once the car was moving that the fan should not be running while the car is traveling. But it's a puller fan so it would not have impeded the flow of air thru the radiator that much. And if the coolant temp was already up to 205f, why would you not want to continue cooling the radiator and coolant? This might explain why my track temps got so hot and limited my laps on track.

So i adjusted these settings to turn on at 184f and off below 178f. Started the car and let it sit and idle for 15 minutes at 106f ambient. Coolant temps stayed between 180f and 183f and the fan turned on and off at the temp settings I had selected. Next test is to take her out for a drive this afternoon. I'll report back after a drive. Hopefully this has it and I won't have to worry anymore. Thanks to RYU and Old Guy for the assistance.

I do wonder if these original settings are a default in AEM or whether the tuner set these parameters? Inquiring minds.....
 
I gather you are using the AEM to control the radiator fan rather than the OEM fan control unit? If that is the case I am guessing that you only operate the radiator fan on high speed? Your 'on' at 184 F and 'off' at 178 is perhaps a rather small dead band. 184 F is good for the on temperature as it is effectively the Honda value for on temperature for the low speed fan. Honda shuts the fan off at 172 F so you are shutting yours off a little earlier. The only potential down side to that is that the relay and fan is going to cycle on - off a little more frequently.

The 194 F 'on' setting is definitely suboptimal; causing the engine to run a little hotter than normal; but, should not be responsible for running really hot. I am not sure what would happen with the off setting at 205 F. I am not familiar with AEM; but, normally the programable outputs would be conditioned with a > or <, with the on temperature being conditioned as > 184 F. If the off setting is conditioned with < (which would be logical), above 194 F the on setting would be telling the fan to run; but, the off setting would be telling the fan to shut off until the temp reached 205F. If the off setting was conditioned with > then the fan would presumably shut off above 205 F; but, the fact that the on condition ( > 184 F) is still met it should be switching the fan on, so the AEM could be trying to turn the fan on and off at the same time. Depending on how the AEM managed the screwy fan settings, you could have had high coolant temperatures during low speed driving if the fan was switched off. However, at highway speeds the radiator fan is pretty much irrelevant. Regardless of what the AEM is doing with the rad fan, if you are still reading really high coolant temperatures at highway speeds you either have a cooling problem or your temperature measurements are incorrect.

You might want to go back to your tuner and ask them what the plan was when they configured the radiator fan outputs, Turning the fan off if the temperature goes above 205 F is counterintuitive regardless of how fast the car is or isn't moving.
 
Thanks to RYU and Old Guy for sticking with me as I figure this out. Yes, the AEM ECU is controlling the radiator and AC fans. I have been doing quite a bit of reading and researching what I can, about the AEM controls. I see 194F (90C) referenced quite often so it may just be a default in the AEM software program. There is another control for the AC clutch to activate, or not, if the AC has been deleted. But my AC seems to be working fine. I am not touching that control (LS5 in the Control Configurations tab). My AC blows cold and the radiator fan comes on with the condenser fans, as it should. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I understand the Dead Band you speak of and will adjust my "off" setting to match the OEM numbers of 172F. Didn't get a chance to drive the car yesterday but hope to today after I make this hopeful last adjustment. I will still look at moving the intercooler heat exchanger a bit more forward from it's current location, to see if I can get some more air to the radiator. 3-4 centimeters could make a huge difference to the airflow to the radiator.

You might want to go back to your tuner and ask them what the plan was when they configured the radiator fan outputs, Turning the fan off if the temperature goes above 205 F is counterintuitive regardless of how fast the car is or isn't moving. - I agree with this statement 100%. Don't understand this setting at all but will change it to 172F and hopefully I will be done with this exercise. Again, don't know fi it was the tuner or a default AEM uses in it's initial settings. Thanks.
 
I'm just checking in because you mentioned me..but My technical skills pale in comparison to our colleagues already on the case....I do know one thing............................ fire bad...
 
Yes docjohn, fire is bad. But I'm sure you all know that feeling. You have worked on a project 13 times and think you finally have it fixed. You proceed with a sense of satisfaction only to find out you haven't fixed it. Yeah, THAT feeling.

Fired up the car to idle and get to temp. Was looking good. Couple of miles into it i was right at 179-181 and was kind of feeling proud of my own damn self. Couple miles later it creeped up to 184-186. OK, I can live with that. It was 103F ambient. Couple more miles in I'm now at 192-194f. Crap. By the time i got home from this 12 mile loop I was at 199f. I hadn't fixed a damn thing!

So the fan comes on at 184f like I set it so that part is good. Not losing any coolant and do not see bleeding coolant anywhere. Coolant level is the same. Bleeders look dry too. All I can surmise is air is getting into the system as the car gets hotter. But from where? When I dropped the motor, the only hoses I disconnected were the main three coolant hoses from the block.

I'll let it cool down a bit and burp the bleeders again to see if any air comes out. I'll also check the main coolant hose clamps to make sure they are secure and aligned. But that will come tomorrow when it's not so hot. Damn.
 
if the climb in temp is constant and over a course of several minutes, in other words if you don't see an up/down behavior in temps, but instead a slow rise, i'm afraid to say that's just the cooling system getting overwhelmed. It takes time for everything to get hot. The engine block has to heat soak, the long coolant lines under the car, the area around the radiator, not just the radiator has to heat soak.. it's a mess. It takes a long time to dissepate that heat if your current radiator can't get shed the heat fast enough. Jim, Ravi, and I lived through this while testing for 2-3 seaons.
 
if the climb in temp is constant and over a course of several minutes, in other words if you don't see an up/down behavior in temps, but instead a slow rise, i'm afraid to say that's just the cooling system getting overwhelmed. It takes time for everything to get hot. The engine block has to heat soak, the long coolant lines under the car, the area around the radiator, not just the radiator has to heat soak.. it's a mess. It takes a long time to dissepate that heat if your current radiator can't get shed the heat fast enough. Jim, Ravi, and I lived through this while testing for 2-3 seaons.

No bouncing of temps, just a slow steady rise regardless of sitting and idling with fans on, or moving at 75mph. I did burp the bleeders and no air came out.

I was afraid that this was the conclusion I was coming to. Well talk me through options then. If upgraded fans are your least favorite option, I'm guessing a bigger, fatter radiator is #1 . What is out there and how much blood must I give?
 
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At 199 F, I would not expect you to be burping coolant. You are still well below the boiling point of the coolant. Honda does not switch the radiator fan to high speed until the coolant temperature reaches 194 F so its not as if your coolant temperature is really out there. Honda does not enter panic mode and turn the air conditioning off until your coolant temperature reaches 266 F.

Given that you were doing your testing at an ambient of 103 F, your coolant temperatures do not seem that unexpected, particularly if you were engaged in high output driving. Heat transfer out of a radiator is a complex process; but, if you grossly simplify the process and just consider the conductive heat transfer from the inside surface of the radiator tube to the outside surface of the radiator tube, the heat transfer is directly proportional to the temperature difference. Crank up the outside temperature and the coolant temperature has to increase by a similar amount to reject the same amount of heat. Your temperatures don't seem out of line for a normal NSX operating under extreme temperature conditions. I remember that you had issues with your dash temperature gauge. Did you resolve those issues? If you did and your dash temperature gauge is sticking around where it should then I think your problem may be with your Gauge Art display.

Have a look at this thread which discusses problems with flakey temperature measurements on AEM ECUs

water temperature question... (nsxprime.com)

The problem seems to have been with the calibration points that were entered into the ECU. This is essentially the problem I mentioned in my first post. Since your tuner seems to have screwed up with the fan control set points you might want to check to see if they displayed a similar level of care when entering the sensor calibration points. No sense beating yourself up about high temperature measurements unless the temperatures are real.
 
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Thanks Old Guy for the reassurance. I'm very good at beating myself up so thanks for the vote of confidence.

Your memory is better than mine. Yes I did rectify that issue with a new sensor but now that I have added sensors and gauges, my paranoia is back to those good olde days.

Unfortunately the links provided in the posts no longer exist so I'm still chasing ghosts. So does anyone have the correct calibration scales for AEM Series 2 for an NSX. The AEM website is practically useless. TIA.
 
Calibration is an important thing. It's often overlooked because it's one of those things that we just assume is correct from the get go.

See if you can borrow a Spal fan setup from Jim or someone local to you. Thru my own testing i've found them of limited help while drawing a ton of current from the system, but sometimes you gotta see what works for your car. You have a front mount heat exchanger which I do not.
 
I was curious about the AEM calibration process. Unfortunately, the only document that is free is the quick start guide. Reading that guide suggests that you use AEM's packaged calibrations for your car. The quick start guide does not get into adjusting the calibration for the temperature sensors. The packaged temperature sensor calibrations do seem to be a problem as discussed on the S2K forum

AEM Sensor Calibrations - S2KI Honda S2000 Forums


Unfortunately, I was not easily able to find any information on how you enter the calibration points for temperature sensors if you don't want to use AEM's base calibration data. Perhaps you can post a question about setting up temperature calibrations in an AEM system and some other user can advise on how to do this.

One thing you can do is check your intake air temperature and coolant temperature first thing in the morning (before air temperatures start to rise) on a stone cold engine. The temperature measurements should be within a couple degrees of one another. If the temperatures do not agree then you definitely have a calibration problem on one or both sensors. Even if the temperatures agree it is possible that both sensors can be equally out of calibration.
 
I was curious about the AEM calibration process. Unfortunately, the only document that is free is the quick start guide. Reading that guide suggests that you use AEM's packaged calibrations for your car. The quick start guide does not get into adjusting the calibration for the temperature sensors. The packaged temperature sensor calibrations do seem to be a problem as discussed on the S2K forum

AEM Sensor Calibrations - S2KI Honda S2000 Forums


Unfortunately, I was not easily able to find any information on how you enter the calibration points for temperature sensors if you don't want to use AEM's base calibration data. Perhaps you can post a question about setting up temperature calibrations in an AEM system and some other user can advise on how to do this.

One thing you can do is check your intake air temperature and coolant temperature first thing in the morning (before air temperatures start to rise) on a stone cold engine. The temperature measurements should be within a couple degrees of one another. If the temperatures do not agree then you definitely have a calibration problem on one or both sensors. Even if the temperatures agree it is possible that both sensors can be equally out of calibration.

I too just found that blog log and have the file right here. I don't know if these values are compatible between the S2k and NA1 NSX. I am able to plot these numbers into the Coolant Sensor Calibration file and it does look a bit different. It looks as though the temps ramp up quickly north of 185F in the AEM version and the temp values below 40F move toward -58F at 4.99v! Overall I do see a variance of 8-18F across the board. I'm not going to input S2k calibrations yet until i can get some kind of verification that these values are at least close. The base calibration file from AEM are documented to run between 10-20F higher than actual in a lot of the boards I've read. But i want to be sure the values in this excel file are accurate for an NSX.

I am running a separate AEM IAT sensor so that is calibrated correctly, thank God. In the Setup Wizard the IAT sensor is correctly matched to the AEM IAT sensor. So still just working on coolant temperatures and trying to determine if its a sensor, calibration of said sensor, or a bigger radiator. Thanks.
 

Attachments

  • AEM Temp Cals.xlsx
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The built in IAT and ECT calibrations for the older aem systems were off by a bit. You could open infinity tuner, get the calibrations from that, then try them in your car. This is what aem recommended when I asked them about the discrepancies.

The downside is the infinity scales are in ohms and yours is probably in volts. If you post the ect table’s volts scale here, and can work out the pull-up resistor value (from the manual, it’s probably 2.2k) of the temp input, I’m happy to map the ohms scale to volts for you
 
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The built in IAT and ECT calibrations for the older aem systems were off by a bit. You could open infinity tuner, get the calibrations from that, then try them in your car. This is what aem recommended when I asked them about the discrepancies.

The downside is the infinity scales are in ohms and yours is probably in volts. If you post the ect table’s volts scale here, and can work out the pull-up resistor value (from the manual, it’s probably 2.2k) of the temp input, I’m happy to map the ohms scale to volts for you

Thanks for jumping in. Yes V2 is volts. I posted above in post #20 right above, the temp scale and alleged volts for an S2k and I'm hoping they are close. If not, and you are willing to take the time, you might also want to sticky this in the WIKI section. i can't be the only one looking for this info. Thanks in advance. I do believe it a 2.2k resistor.
 
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If AEM is using a sensor supply voltage of 5 volts and a bias resistor of 2.2 k ohms, I have plotted the sensor voltage for the NSX sensor in the attached spreadsheet. The resistance values that I entered for the sensor are from the tiny 1"x1" graph on page 11-72 of the service manual so they have a lot of uncertainty (the line on the graph is probably 50 ohms wide). It would be better if you removed the sensor and did a heated water bath test to measure the sensor resistance and various temperatures. The bias resistance and the supply voltage can be adjusted in the spread sheet if the actual values are different.

Based upon the coolant sensor curve in the NSX service manual, the values for the S2K do not match up well with the NSX sensor. Note that as the temperature increases the change is sensor resistance gets smaller making this a poor device for accurately measuring high temperatures. If you want accurate high temperature measurements from this device you really need to do a detailed hot water calibration bath to get accurate sensor resistance values.

AEM's way of entering calibration data for the sensors using a calibration voltage strikes me as bizarre bordering on stupid - just my opinion.
 
Thanks for this, I will look it over carefully this weekend. At the time I purchased this ECU, it was state of the art. Right until two weeks later when the Infinity was released. My timing has always sucked. For the most part it does what is required but if I ever do replace it, you can bet your ass, it will not be with another AEM product.
 
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