Cryogenic treatment

[ilya]

Anyone know of a quality, reliable place in Los Angeles for cryogenic treatment.
I just received my 4.55 R&P and it was recommended that I get it cryo treated before installing it. Apparently it improves the durability and life of the part and is pretty inexpesnive to do. Since I need it to last forever and don't ever want to have to replace it, it sounds like a good idea.
It's heavy so if there is a good place in Los Angeles, I'd like to do that and save quite a bit on shipping (and risking any possible damage on such an expensive and hard to get part).

[This message has been edited by ilya (edited 20 November 2001).]

 

[swede]

Just a question, what is cryo-treatment? My stupid dictionary doesn't seem to include that word.... the best suggestion is "to be put into a really cold place"!?!?!

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Enjoying life at 8.000 RPM

 

[nsxtasy]

It means putting parts into a freezer that will gradually lower to super-frigid temperatures. It's supposed to make them harder and more durable.

In Chicago, we do it by leaving the item outside in January, and that seems to do the trick.

 

[NSXY]

Cryogenic treatment is why so many Swedes are so well preserved. Maybe your NSX parts will last forever too, Swede.

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NSXY
95 NSX-T, 5 sp, Red/Tan, Stock, except Dunlaptya SP9000s

 

[swede]

Thanks for explaining it!
I will rush and try to do the trick on my rear S-03's

maybe I should try to do the Chicago trick as well. I was in Chicago the 2nd of January -99 and i don't remember it that cold, but it was like 3 feet of snow in 12 hours, almost like home

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Enjoying life at 8.000 RPM

 

[ilya]

Ah yes, I was in Chicago once.
My

are still recovering from
that cryo-treatment.



[This message has been edited by ilya (edited 20 November 2001).]

 

[Jimbo]

Usually you hear cryo-treatment being done on engine components. But the benefits would also apply to a ring/pinion too.
http://www.onecryo.com/
http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/ar10183.htm
http://www.300below.com/
http://www.mondellotwister.com/cryogenics.html
http://www.mmrusa.com/cryo.htm

Let us know what it costs.

-Jim


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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
Looking for 76-79 Honda Accords

 

[nsxman]

Ah, the wonders of technology.

Now, for us of the "stone knives and bearskins" generation, we used a technique called "Magnaflux" to find defects in metal parts.

In perusing the cryo-links, there appears little info on whether cryogenic freezing ferrets out defects. If it does not, what is the point of such treatment? It would appear that a basic test for the integrity of the casting of the metal part (fracture analysis) would need to be done first to gain the benefits of cryo-freezing.




[This message has been edited by nsxman (edited 20 November 2001).]

 

[nsxtasy]

Usually you hear cryo-treatment being done on engine components.

More often than that, you hear about it for brake rotors.

 

[NSXY]

Hey, you guys I think there's a problem here.

You get NO benefit of cryogenic hardening by dropping your already quenched metal parts into liquid nitrogen now. Cryogenic quenching gives better hardening, but has to happen as a part of the original heat quenching process during the parts' manufacture. Once the steel has hardened, it's too late to make any difference, i.e. no amount of liquid nitrogen dipping of your metal parts is going to improve their molecular properties or hardness.

I'm pasting below a quote from the Cryo One website. Also, My CEO, who's a Ph.D. physicist in materials science says the same.

Cryogenic Tempering -
Completing the Heat Treat Process...

Researchers have found that the effects of shallow cryogenic tempering (-110°F) is minimal unless it is performed as part of the initial heat treat cycle. Heat treating is what gives steel its hardness as well as its toughness, wear resistance and ductility. Even performed properly, heat treating cannot remove all of the retained austenite (large, unstable particles of carbon carbide) from a steel. Proper heat treating is a key part in increasing a parts toughness, durability, wear resistance, strength and Rockwell hardness.
The beneficial changes that occur as a result of the heat treat process do not actually take place during the heating, but, rather from the cooling or "quenching" from the high temperature. (The benefits of the quench do not stop at room temperature, as many alloys will continue to show significant improvements as the quench temperature nears absolute zero.) While it is impossible to actually achieve -459.67°F, (a molecular zero movement state that eliminates all stress), deep cryogenic tempering temperatures are very efficient and cost effective in increasing dimensional stability, increasing wear resistance and performance of most alloys.



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NSXY
95 NSX-T, 5 sp, Red/Tan, Stock, except Dunlaptya SP9000s

 

[grippgoat]

So for cast-iron brake rotors, cryo is good stuff, but for a R&P it's not?

-Mike

 

[ilya]

$60 from one place I spoke to... not including shipping which is a pretty penny on that heavy R&P. So I am still looking for an actual place that does it in Los Angeles and does not ship it out. I'm not taking any chances with damage or loss. If I can't find one here I won't do it, but there HAS to be at least one place in such a major city. I just need some time on Google to find it.

 

[Jimbo]

NSXY,

"... the effects of shallow cryogenic tempering (-110°F) is minimal..."

I think they were citing that the benefits of shallow cryo tempering was minimal. I think it's clear that the benefits of sub-300 treatment is beneficial.

Mike (grippgoat),

No, I believe there's probably some benefit for a R&P too. The process seems to help bearing and wear surfaces. And gears have plenty of those.

-Jim

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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
Looking for 76-79 Honda Accords

 

[Lud]

There may be a theortical benefit, but let's step back and ask this question: Is anyone wearing out their R&P??

 

[cobalt]

http://www.carbotecheng.com

Look under Products for CRYO-COOL.

We do cryogenic treatment in-shop, and take it down to -300F...minimal is -292F for 8 hours...we do 12 hours.

There are case studies posted on out site as well.

Andie
1995 NSX-T

p.s. Works for rotors and engine parts, both...for engine parts: crank, pistons, connecting rods, heads, blocks, etc.

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[nsxtasy]

And it reminds former Michigan residents of home.

 

[cobalt]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
And it reminds former Michigan residents of home.

Well, at the very least, it will bring your beer down to a chill real quick.

Andie

 

[Edo]

Andie, I was looking to get this done on a new tranny so that some of the parts don't wear down as quick. Is there any empirical data suggesting that the Cryo treatment works? Is there some sort of quantative way of determining how much the strength/durability improves? How much longer do brake Rotor's tend to last after Cryo treatment? 10%? 20%? 50%?

Sorry for being so inquisitive, but if this cryo treatment works so well, I'd just as soon as Cryo treat every new part I buy for my car...

 

[true]

Don't waste your money... You will never notice a difference.

 

[hejo]

A place in Washington is http://www.calcryo.com/motorsports.htm Maybe Chris at Science of Speed knows these guys as they're in his neck of the woods. Another place in No Cal. is California Cryogenics. I don't know about them and would check references. http://www.calcryo.com/motorsports.htm

As far as does cryogenic tempering work? Part of getting my BSME I had to take a materials engineering class. This was a basic area we studied and the answer is yes. If you want the scientific research I can point people to many research sites.

The real question is whether or not it's worth the cost. I think that depends on your application and amount of "risk" you think you're going to have if you don't temper. If I was going to be "racing" my car, pushing big HP and torque and working the trany for hours on end then I think I would have it done. Otherwise I think it's probably not worth it. Besides who's going to pay extra for having it done if you decide to sell?

 

[hejo]

Originally posted by Edo:
Is there any empirical data suggesting that the Cryo treatment works? Is there some sort of quantative way of determining how much the strength/durability improves? How much longer do brake Rotor's tend to last after Cryo treatment? 10%? 20%? 50%?

Eddie given your rotor situation I think you should consider having your next set done. Here's a couple of links to check out. http://www.frozenrotors.com/ which is connected to http://www.cryometals.com/index.html who could do other parts. You can also check out the guys north of us, http://www.onecryo.com/onecryo/infomail.htm, located in Puyallup, WA.

If you want some detail on what's going on here http://www.hekimianracing.com/cryostudy.html

 

[NSXY]

Hejo et al.,

Once again, it is my understanding from present discussions with a materials science physicist (Stanford Ph.D.) that cryogenic tempering only works when used during the actual factory quenching process, during which the hot metal part is immediately quenched to ultra low temperatures. During this quenching (cooling) process, iron crystals are surrounded by carbon, and the lower the temperature acheived during the heat quenching, the harder the crystal that is formed. However, if a metal has been previously quenched to room temperature, its crystal structure can not be changed by further lowering of its temperature (w/ liquid nitrogen, etc.). The only way you can change the hardness of a previously quenched metal would be to again raise its temperature to the melting point, then quench with ultralow temps. In summary, it seems like spending money on this cryogenic treatment of previously quenched auto parts is about as scientific as wearing on a copper wrist bracelet for good gear luck. Hocus pocus, dominocus....

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NSXY
95 NSX-T, 5 sp, Red/Tan, Stock, except Dunlaptya SP9000s

 

[Jimbo]

NSXY,

There are dozens and dozens of companies who are offering this cryo service for metallic parts that are done after the original heat treatments. These seem to be legit companies that offer a service that can be demonstrated to offer a proven advantage and benefit.

I personally know of a machine shop who cryo treats their existing machine tool cutters and they see a significant improvement in longevity.

It's not hocus pocus, but whether or not it's worth the cost for a street-driven car is another matter.

-Jim

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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
Looking for 76-79 Honda Accords

 

[hejo]

NSXY,

I don't understand your response to my post. If my BSME reference offended you I'm sorry. However as part of my education my area of focus happened to be machine design and I spent a great deal of time around material selection and processing. In fact it was part of the sophomore year curriculum to conduct rockwell hardness test on different materials including processes for changing characteristics of materials. Material science is actually a large part of Mechanical Engineering.

So I don't claim to be an expert materials scientist but I do understand enough to know what's going on. The process is different than what you describe. If you take steel at 1500f and toss it into a -50f bath the part is going to explode. Let me give you the rough process and use some rough numbers to describe it.

First material at about 1500f is quenched to room temperature, (not the cold hardening temperature). Next raise the material temperature to around 150f and hold until material stabilizes to prevent cracking. Then depending on what process you're using lower the temperature to around -60f for cold hardening or -300f for cryogenic tempering.

What I'm speculating is that providers of cryogenic tempering raise the temperature of the material back up to 150f to make sure it's stable. Then cycle it down to the lower cryogenic temperature. I don't believe it's required to raise the temperature all the way back up to 1500f since it's not lowered to the cold hardening temperature directly in the first place. I'm sure there's some specs for the speed in which temperature is raised and lowered in order to properly cause the desired changes in the microstructure of the material.

So the question for your PhD friend is there any reason why you couldn't cryogenic temper the material at a later date given the process is to temper from 150f? I can't believe raising it back up to 150f could cause any issues since the temperature on rotors is much higher during use.

So your comment "this is about as scientific as wearing on a copper wrist bracelet for good gear luck. Hocus pocus, dominocus....." I think is uncalled for given there are many research labs and universities who spend time and money researching steel. There's a lot of proof that it does work using scientific methods from respected labs. Why don't you go to the link I posted and read the research by a respected Japanese education institution. Some of worlds best steel is coming from there now.

So the question remains what's the cost and is it appropriate to do given the intended usage.