CTSC to SOS twin turbo final conclusions....

[m3456y]

This project was probably one of the best "apples to apples" examples of supercharger vs. twin turbocharging IMHO.

Both set-ups were installed on exactly the same car with the same fuel pump, injectors, exhaust and AEM. Both were running at nearly the exact same boost. I got a little over 8 PSI (8.47) as a hi reading on the supercharger and the SOS set-up was actuator limited to 8 PSI. Both set-ups were tuned on the exact same dyno.

The goal was to get somewhere close to 400 RWHP with the turbos. The supercharger made a high of 362 RWHP with water/meth injection. AIT's were in the mid-200 degree range (here in Florida). After tuning, the twin turbo's made 408 RWHP and running the car around town, the AIT's are in the low 100's.

The difference in "seat of pants" is amazing. The turbos have way more pull due to the higher hp/torque.

The sound is totally different. I was running exhaust diffusers to quiet the car with the supercharger and even then it was loud under acceleration. It also had the typical supercharger "rattle" when idling, and I was also using a Cantrell intake which was very loud.

The twin turbos are much quieter. I pulled the diffusers from the exhaust and even under acceleration the car is not obnoxiously loud. I love the sound of the blow-off valve between shifts.

As far as installation - the SOS kit was very complete, well thought out and extremely well made. Everything arrived packaged and organized to make identification simple. The only thing I left my garage for was to get the supplied fittings welded in my oil pan - I did not trust my MIG welding skills for that. Total time spent was 30 hours (all in one week) to convert the motor back to stock, then add the turbos.

The cost to supercharge (high boost) or twin turbo charge is just about equal. The turbo kit is a little more, but includes everything. If you supercharge, then add headers and intercooler or water/meth injection, different fuel pump, injectors - it's just about a wash. I'm assuming stand alone EMS for both with tuning required.

After now having tried both set-ups on the same car - for my money, the turbos are the clear choice for the most bang for your buck.

 

[NetViper]

Did you keep your cats?

 

[m3456y]

no cats

 

[CB72]

I went through a similar experience when I upgraded my NA1 from a CTSC to the LoveFab stage 2 turbo kit.
The main reason for the upgrade was not for more power but for more consistent power when running on a track.
With the CTSC kit, I would loose up to 3 seconds per lap due to heat soak
I did not measure the IAT's like you did but they must of been of the same order of magnitude with the CTSC.
The upgrade brought another advantage: the horsepower is now in a different league as I can keep up with the 997 GT3s:biggrin:
Like you, I love the noise coming out of the blow-off valve when shifting gears!
The only issue is that the cooling system now needs to be upgraded to cope with the new power level ( only 8 psi of boost!)
That's what racing is all about I suppose?

 

[NetViper]

no cats

To me having cats is a nice benefit of the SOS kit. I think ole made 411rwhp with cats.

Looking forward to seeing your car at nsxcapades this year.

 

[m3456y]

never had cats since I've owned the car.

 

[jorligan]

I went through a similar experience when I upgraded my NA1 from a CTSC to the LoveFab stage 2 turbo kit.
The main reason for the upgrade was not for more power but for more consistent power when running on a track.
With the CTSC kit, I would loose up to 3 seconds per lap due to heat soak
I did not measure the IAT's like you did but they must of been of the same order of magnitude with the CTSC.
The upgrade brought another advantage: the horsepower is now in a different league as I can keep up with the 997 GT3s:biggrin:
Like you, I love the noise coming out of the blow-off valve when shifting gears!
The only issue is that the cooling system now needs to be upgraded to cope with the new power level ( only 8 psi of boost!)
That's what racing is all about I suppose?

Recently had my car at the track for 2 days, No overheating issues but the temperature increased so I intentionally stopped to let the car cool. I currently have the Lovefab Stage 4? with a Driving Ambition radiator and Driving Ambition 3.5L motor. Ran 12 lbs boost. This was at 6000+ feet altitude so there is MUCH less cooling. Plans over the winter is a separate oil cooler. 1K2GO was running a 3.2 motor with DA supercharger, around 410 RWHP and had no cooling issues, used DA radiator but also had oil cooler in the passenger side intake through NSX-R side intakes. I am going the same route since currently, the oil is cooled by the radiator. Also spoke with Shad and he mentioned that changing to a thinner innercooler radiator may help. I plan on going with the oil cooler first and then changing the innercooler as necessary. The increased temperature occurred only after 30+ minutes on the track.

 

[CB72]

Recently had my car at the track for 2 days, No overheating issues but the temperature increased so I intentionally stopped to let the car cool. I currently have the Lovefab Stage 4? with a Driving Ambition radiator and Driving Ambition 3.5L motor. Ran 12 lbs boost. This was at 6000+ feet altitude so there is MUCH less cooling. Plans over the winter is a separate oil cooler. 1K2GO was running a 3.2 motor with DA supercharger, around 410 RWHP and had no cooling issues, used DA radiator but also had oil cooler in the passenger side intake through NSX-R side intakes. I am going the same route since currently, the oil is cooled by the radiator. Also spoke with Shad and he mentioned that changing to a thinner innercooler radiator may help. I plan on going with the oil cooler first and then changing the innercooler as necessary. The increased temperature occurred only after 30+ minutes on the track.

I would appreciate pictures of the oil cooler.
Is this an off the shelf unit?
My intercooler is pretty large too, please share info on thinner unit.
Luckily, I was watching the water temperature so I stopped before getting into trouble:smile:
Part of the issue most probably came from the fact that the air duct to the DA radiator was missing:frown:

 

[jorligan]

I would appreciate pictures of the oil cooler.
Is this an off the shelf unit?
My intercooler is pretty large too, please share info on thinner unit.
Luckily, I was watching the water temperature so I stopped before getting into trouble:smile:
Part of the issue most probably came from the fact that the air duct to the DA radiator was missing:frown:

Here is the link for the Intercooler. It is essentially the same size, just thinner. Looking at the Garrett turbo site, they specifically mention that the IC doesn't affect cooling unless it is too thick. If the oil is cool, I suspect that the Lovefab IC is fine.

http://www.drivingambition.us/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=DA-410
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=160812&page=6

The second link is to the oil cooler form build thread by 1k2go. Very clean installation and if you closely at his car, you can see the oil cooler peeking out on the passenger side. I will be ordering the oil cooler from Shad at Driving Ambition.

 

[Ko-nsx]

What made you choose the SOS TT setup over any others and why the current HP level? Can that system produce 450hp? I've been weighing options on the current systems and Lovefab and SOS both have great systems. But i cant make a decision between single turbo or twin turbo, they both cost the same but the i havent seen any SOS TT's make more than 400ish HP on the stock motors. I've seen Lovefab systems put out 475 with an A/A setup, on stock motors. I'm guessing the only advantage to TT's are faster spool reducing lag? Thanks for your review!!:smile:

 

[m3456y]

What made you choose the SOS TT setup over any others and why the current HP level? Can that system produce 450hp? I've been weighing options on the current systems and Lovefab and SOS both have great systems. But i cant make a decision between single turbo or twin turbo, they both cost the same but the i havent seen any SOS TT's make more than 400ish HP on the stock motors. I've seen Lovefab systems put out 475 with an A/A setup, on stock motors. I'm guessing the only advantage to TT's are faster spool reducing lag? Thanks for your review!!:smile:

I'm not into "dyno racing" as the tuner called it. I was looking for a complete, well fabricated kit that someone like myself could install without issues. 408 RWHP on 8 PSI of restricted boost was fine with me.

You can purchase a solenoid controller to increase boost through the AEM if you want more than 8 PSI - but I wanted to be safe since this was a friends car (formerly mine). I have not reviewed the Lovefab system, but I am familiar with the service and quality fabrication which has been a trademark of SOS. Their twin turbo kit has not been an exception.

 

[NetViper]

What made you choose the SOS TT setup over any others and why the current HP level? Can that system produce 450hp? I've been weighing options on the current systems and Lovefab and SOS both have great systems. But i cant make a decision between single turbo or twin turbo, they both cost the same but the i havent seen any SOS TT's make more than 400ish HP on the stock motors. I've seen Lovefab systems put out 475 with an A/A setup, on stock motors. I'm guessing the only advantage to TT's are faster spool reducing lag? Thanks for your review!!:smile:

Having been in several turbo cars, I don't think the SOS kit provides any large advantage over a single turbo sized correctly for your HP goals.

Plus, I still think running 450-475rwhp on a stock motor is a bad idea, regardless whose kit you are running.

 

[E-Nough Logic]

What made you choose the SOS TT setup over any others and why the current HP level? Can that system produce 450hp? I've been weighing options on the current systems and Lovefab and SOS both have great systems. But i cant make a decision between single turbo or twin turbo, they both cost the same but the i havent seen any SOS TT's make more than 400ish HP on the stock motors. I've seen Lovefab systems put out 475 with an A/A setup, on stock motors. I'm guessing the only advantage to TT's are faster spool reducing lag? Thanks for your review!!:smile:

No ONE turbo kit will make more power on a stock motor more than any other. All of the available turbo kits for the NSX are capable of 500+whp. Essentially every user has their own choice of how much power to make when they tune the car. The SOS kit, depending on which pair of turbochargers you choose is capable of 650+whp, so it is not the kit preventing people from making 400+whp.

The SOS kit's advantages include the capability of using the stock cats and exhaust. It comes with an air to water intercooler kit which is optional on other kits. The standard turbochargers with the base kit are well sized for the stock motors in the NSX. Other kits also have properly sized turbocharger options and can spool just as fast though. The turbos are mounted high so no scavenge pump is needed. Not to mention the use of good quality parts in the kit, Garrett turbochargers, Tial BOV's etc.

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

I think hybrdthry911 has a good summary.

The primary benefits of our twin setup is: boost response, not having to rely on a scavenge pump for oiling, compatibility with catalytic converters, power capacity of 400-800+ hp with the same basic system components, and quality (stainless machined flanges & tubing, premium components, etc). When comparing other kits on a price perspective - try to make a fair comparison as to what you're getting to understand the value with the ScienceofSpeed system: properly sized premium twin ball bearing water cooled turbochargers (as opposed to overseas made journal bearing knock off turbochargers), liquid charge intercooler (as opposed to small air-air cores which simply do not work), and premium materials & components (TIAL blow off valve as opposed to overseas knock offs). When you add it up, you'll see the value is considerable. From our own experience of testing and repairing other systems on customer's vehicles - the long term durability of the system itself and the effect on the engine makes a properly designed high quality system worth the small cost difference.

Regarding power: also well said in the post above. The ScienceofSpeed system certainly has the capacity to produce well over 400 whp (you can find several build threads on NSXPrime & our website of ScienceofSpeed turbocharged NSX making 600-800+ whp with our system). We simply do not recommend it. It has been our experience that any more than 200 hp increase over factory power on the factory cast pistons, regardless of what turbocharger is moving the air, narrows the safety margin of the engine.

regards,
-- Chris

 

[Ko-nsx]

Thanks for the responses guys. I wasn't trying to say one system was better than the other, clearly they are both good systems for the nsx and i am glad we have good options. I have read all the post regarding the capability of the twins on built motors and find it impressive and informative. I just SEE more post saying 400 on system and 450-475 on anothers and i was just curious. Thanks for the review and the answers to my questions.:smile:

 

[DDozier]

Regarding power: also well said in the post above. The ScienceofSpeed system certainly has the capacity to produce well over 400 whp (you can find several build threads on NSXPrime & our website of ScienceofSpeed turbocharged NSX making 600-800+ whp with our system). We simply do not recommend it. It has been our experience that any more than 200 hp increase over factory power on the factory cast pistons, regardless of what turbocharger is moving the air, narrows the safety margin of the engine.

regards,
-- Chris

First off let me say a agree with everything you said in your previous post but I have only a single issue with the generalization about the 200hp increase over the factory power being the limit on the factory cast piston. I question this only because of my expeirience with both a CTSC and a twin turbo NSX.

Look at these three real world setups:

Setup 1 - CTSC Hi-Boost Kit, AEM and required fuel upgrades I was able to achive 375whp at 8.5 lbs of boost with IAT's in the 190-220 degree.

Setup 2 - Twin Turbo, AEM and required fuel upgrades I was able to achive 400whp on the same dyno with 6.4lbs of boost and IAT's of 30 degrees above ambient.

Setup 3 - Twin Turbo, AEM and required fuel upgrades I was able to achive 447whp on the same dyno with 8.4lbs of boost and IAT's of 40 degrees above ambient.

In the three setups above assuming a quality tune for all three setups which has the higher potencial for stock piston failure, and if you could put them in order of most risk to least risk.

What I am having a problem understanding is does the increase in HP, reduced efficiency, cylinder pressure, or cylinder temps cause the increase in risk. It would seem to me that if 8 lbs of boost is safe at 375whp then 8 lbs of boost at 440whp should be safe, all other things being equal. But if the 440whp was made with IAT's some 100 degrees less then this setup would be another level safer. I do understand that all the variables work with and againt each other in some way but what factors cause the most risk.

Dave

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

hi Dave --

I agree, my statement was too general. It should read something more like: "200 horsepower gain at the engine with a properly designed charge cooling system on 91+ octane is the maximum we recommend on the factory engine".

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

Thanks for the responses guys. I wasn't trying to say one system was better than the other, clearly they are both good systems for the nsx and i am glad we have good options. I have read all the post regarding the capability of the twins on built motors and find it impressive and informative. I just SEE more post saying 400 on system and 450-475 on anothers and i was just curious. Thanks for the review and the answers to my questions.:smile:

Yes, we've seen that too. Can it be done? Sure. The problem is that the safety margin becomes so slim that a variable like fuel quality, can result in engine damage. We're in the process now of rebuilding an engine for a customer who left the tuner with another company's turbocharger system making 470 horsepower on 91 octane. 6 months later the engine is being rebuilt due to cracked ring lands.

-- Chris

 

[Ko-nsx]

Yes, we've seen that too. Can it be done? Sure. The problem is that the safety margin becomes so slim that a variable like fuel quality, can result in engine damage. We're in the process now of rebuilding an engine for a customer who left the tuner with another company's turbocharger system making 470 horsepower on 91 octane. 6 months later the engine is being rebuilt due to cracked ring lands.

-- Chris

Understood. Thanks

 

[kookoo4nsx]

Chris, Did the owner running the 470hp car you are currently rebuilding use EMS or FIC? Just curious.
Does the SOS kit come with Meth? If not, why not?

What about DDozier's example of Setup 2 vs 3. Is Setup 3 with Meth as safe as or safer than Setup 2 without meth?

 

[doc_tai]

I wouldn't run over 420 whp without meth or e85 on my car. If I want to push over 450 whp which means Im ready to get my motor rebuild a year or two down the road. This reason why I'm still around 400 whp for last 3 years

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

Chris, Did the owner running the 470hp car you are currently rebuilding use EMS or FIC? Just curious.
Does the SOS kit come with Meth? If not, why not?

What about DDozier's example of Setup 2 vs 3. Is Setup 3 with Meth as safe as or safer than Setup 2 without meth?

He was using EMS. We don't include or recommend meth injection, because we consider it a band-aid for a poorly designed charge cooling system. If you have a proper charge cooling system keeping inlet temperatures stable, there is no reason for it, especially considering the variables it introduces for engine control.

 

[EAC]

I think hybrdthry911 has a good summary.

The primary benefits of our twin setup is: boost response, not having to rely on a scavenge pump for oiling, compatibility with catalytic converters, power capacity of 400-800+ hp with the same basic system components, and quality (stainless machined flanges & tubing, premium components, etc). When comparing other kits on a price perspective - try to make a fair comparison as to what you're getting to understand the value with the ScienceofSpeed system: properly sized premium twin ball bearing water cooled turbochargers (as opposed to overseas made journal bearing knock off turbochargers), liquid charge intercooler (as opposed to small air-air cores which simply do not work), and premium materials & components (TIAL blow off valve as opposed to overseas knock offs). When you add it up, you'll see the value is considerable. From our own experience of testing and repairing other systems on customer's vehicles - the long term durability of the system itself and the effect on the engine makes a properly designed high quality system worth the small cost difference.


regards,
-- Chris

Who's including chinese knock offs with their kits?

 

[doc_tai]

Who's including chinese knock offs with their kits?

Like everything else now lol


taken from zilvia.net

http://zilvia.net/f/tech-talk/306838...s-anymore.html


Quote:
Originally Posted by mbtech
I work at Garrett Turbos, now called Honeywell Turbo Technologies which there so proud of. When Cliff Garrett Owned Garrett He used to brown bag his lunch everyday and cared for a quality Product. If he knew what Honeywell has done now he would turn over in his grave. Honeywell bought Garrett In 1998 or 1999. After this they opened up a turbo testing lab in shanghai China and quickly moved there turbo overhaul to Mexicali Mexico, quickly after Garrett overhaul went belly-up. So they moved there whole production to Mexicali Mexico, as if that first failure was not a sign.

Garrett Turbos made a quality product for a fair price. A turbo is a precision instrument. Garrett turbos was part of Garrett Air Research (on 190th st. In Torrance ca.) Where they have a huge facility designing turbine engines, and so on. Most of the senior technicians in our main turbo facility (Lomita Blvd Torrance ca) came from our air research. If you’re building jet engines a turbo is not all that difficult. Well Cliff Garrett dies. At that time ALL production of Garrett Turbos was at Lomita Torrance ca. Also all engineering and research was there as well. After we were bought and production was sent to Mexico to save costs. Our production numbers doubled. And cost was cut in half our failure rate tripled. Well who cares Honeywell is making money and lots of it. Turbos are considered Honeywell’s golden egg. They feel that turbos are going to take over big. Which it already has in the diesel market. We make ford diesel turbos, daf, Chevrolet, some Audi, vw, fiat, Perkins. Millions of turbos. And there now all coming from china and Mexico. Well up until lately the company figured if the product was designed in the US and assembled in Mexico we would be ok. Well to further there profit and **** the customer once again....the LAST of what makes turbo American leaves in January 2011. We will close the doors to the Torrance Lab. In Torrance we did all our racing turbos (wrc stuff, Audi racing etc..) then in the garret garage we did the turbos you people buy for your Subaru’s. Actually I take that back. They take turbos that were made on a production line somewhere else in the world, and change a couple of parts on a bench in Torrance (wheels, housing..etc) and send it to you the customer saying it was made in the us.....no it was not it was just repackaged and altered a little. Well as of Jan 2011 all your turbos will be made in Mexico or china or Czech Republic. This is the last Garrett facility in the United States.

We have huge law suits pending due to turbo failures. GM is probably going to leave us.... ford has already sued us. Caterpillar has one of the largest recalls in garret history in the process. Our name is becoming ****. The last few VERY smart guys left in the company are being fired to save costs, but see our profit is already good.....they just want more. Please don’t spend 1500$ on a gt35r. Now that it’s costing Honeywell less to build turbos do you think you will see a smaller bill when you order there product? NO!. They are going to charge you even more for even less. There are countless procedures that are being terminated everyday that made our turbos THE BEST. They keep cutting corner after corner. Did you know that we shave metal off our turbine and compressor housings until they are at the EXTREME minimum needed to contain in the event of failure they are shaving every nickel off the cost of a turbo. Did you know that 2000$ gt40 you buy is all mark up. I won’t dare say the actual cost to the company in fear of a lawsuit but lets just say your sales tax is more then the production cost.

Do not buy these turbos. BorgWarner and mitsu are trying there best to compete with us making a quality product. Honeywell is using its big name to back junky turbos Like Toyota is starting to do. I guarantee in the next 8 months you will see a huge decline in quality. All designing and production is in CHINA AND MEXICO. Honeywell is taking back all there benefits they used to supply us with as employees. That way when they lay us off its as cheap as possible. Instead of saying "Well after we take a hit laying those people off we will make tons" they are just taking back all there benefits so they walk away clean and clear. We used to get a severance package. Which they just took away. One of the head engineers involved in the t3 project. (Designing the first t3) he is still with our company. he was supposed to get 44 weeks of pay if he ever got layed off (30 days and 1 week for every year with the company. 40 years with the company)Due to the new Honeywell rules he gets only 16 weeks pay they stole all that pack after promising it to him for 40 years. My fingers and about to fall off typing all this and I am heated so I don’t care about grammar I’m concerned about you people not supporting a Nazi company. Take your business elsewhere. Somewhere where you will get what your money pays for. Have a nice day and don’t forget if you hear the name HTT Honeywell Turbo Technologies Stay away

(They still use the garret stamp on the turbos)
quoted from another forum I frequent

 

[EAC]

I know about the issues of Garret outsourcing their turbos. But, SOS is clearly saying a NSX Vendor is including knock off (AKA: EBAY) turbos, bovs and wastegates with their kits.