• Protip: Profile posts are public! Use Conversations to message other members privately. Everyone can see the content of a profile post.

current status on BBSC

Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Sep 9, 2001
Messages
2,269
Location
Long Island, NY, US
Originally posted by David:
Those who understand engine management will do a little happy dance when it is announced.

Hmm, let me guess... fuel management integrated into ECU firmware rather than through an FMU-style setup?



------------------
Russ
'91 black/black
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
May 30, 2000
Messages
3,277
Location
Southampton, PA, USA
An open and free exchange of ideas and thoughts is of course desirable and should be a cornerstone of this forum.

However, rumormongering and speculation at the expense of an individual or their company is something else indeed.

Mark Basch has always been upfront and willing to share his thoughts and product information at the appropriate time. I see no reason to force anyone to divulge information ahead of time - or to have to respond to half-baked (or fully-baked) rumors.

Typically, companies who develop products sign non-disclosure documents with "outside" individuals. This practice solves this rumormongering problem quite nicely. I would hope such a NDA was in place and the appropriate action would be taken to squelch this form of blackmail.

Here's hoping.

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
Looking for 76-79 Honda Accords
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Feb 21, 2000
Messages
1,413
Location
Austin, Republic of Texas
Originally posted by Jimbo:
the appropriate action would be taken to squelch this form of blackmail.

My impression was that, due to the relatively large number of beta units (a good thiing) out in the public domain, that people were reacting to product changes and asking questions. Who is blackmailing anyone? That is a very strong and very serious accusation.

Maybe I am reading the wrong thread, but I just see someone asking questions about the recent design changes that are in place in some of the field uints. How is that curiousity bad? How is asking what is going on equal to blackmail?
 

Sig

Experienced Member
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Sep 25, 2000
Messages
1,604
Location
Tyson's Corner, VA
Can't we all just get along? I don't believe anyone here ever intended or did "blackmail". That's a pretty strong word. When individuals hear information, especially information that could influence an expensive purchase....it is only natural to ask questions. To be ridiculed for that is nonsensical. Are we "blackmailing" Honda for our conjecture on future NSX models?

In addition, when someone takes the time to put together a well thought out and educated response, they too should not be ridiculed. If I was someone who was contemplating a SC purchase and had concerns about the fuel management capabilities, which I happen to be, I am pleased to get information like this. Even if we do not have a full 100%accurate picture, at least I know there is most likely something going on. To the point where I will wait to see what the official release will be.... instead of going with another solution because I didn't know something was coming. In addition, most people on here don't have the time to be thread/faq savant and don't deserve to be treated in lesser fashion because of this, nor do we have the time to go through search results of all past threads.
I have often felt this way when reading individual's responses to others and just go on and think it's not worth it to chime in with a 3rd party perspective. I guess, because I know I am not alone in thinking this, I finally felt obligated to say something. These kind of responses only inhibit one's desire to post his/her thoughts, even when they will be very helpful.
In closing, people are excited about the BBSC, though I don't ask the questions myself, I sure do enjoy all the related threads.
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Jul 27, 2000
Messages
689
Location
Kaaalifornia
Hey All-

I am one of the BB beta testers, and in an effort to put all the idle (and sometimes negative) speculation to rest, I talked to MB about what can be disclosed now. The BBSC is an absolutely awesome setup. Im not just saying that as a beta tester, I actually plan to buy the final unit like many of you when it comes out! As everyone has already guessed, there were a number of changes that needed to be done before MB was totally satisfied with the product. I think that Mark could have sold everyone a reasonably nice workable unit some time ago, but that would not have been good enough.

Your reputation is only as good as your last product, and I think that the delay will certainly be worth it in the long run. There are two major recent changes that are being tested right now. One change was moving to larger sized bearings to support the supercharger driveshaft. Sure, the smaller bearings would have worked, but if you think about the heat and stress the bearings have to endure on the track, you will agree that for the long term, this change will be more than worth the wait.

The other change that seems to be pretty much out of the bag at this point is of course the fuel system. This item was the most complex, and I would say one of the most elegant parts of the system. Rather than just creating an artificial fuel curve by mechanical means with a fuel pressure regulator, which is the norm with other forced-induction setups, this system actually remaps the fuel curves in the ECU itself. Not only that, but as many followers of this discussion are aware, the map sensor signal is now intercepted by electronic means as well, not by mechanical means as has been the norm.

In addition to these two major changes, there were a bunch of little items (fittings, brackets, etc) that were designed and are just being completed now. None of the changes were necessary to make a working SC, but these changes make the SC not only better looking, but much more reliable and bulletproof for the long run, which I would certainly agree are worth waiting for.
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
May 30, 2000
Messages
3,277
Location
Southampton, PA, USA
I believe that when unfounded rumors abound and a manufacturer has to, or is forced to respond to these rumors in order to set the record straight - that it is indeed a "form of blackmail."

That's my opinion.

No one said anything about changes made to field units. It was an open-ended rumor that's all. In fact, the poster even said it was a rumor upfront.

And this is not the same as speculating about what Honda might do with the next NSX. No way, no how.

Beta testers are chosen for a purpose. They sign NDA's (I'm not sure if they did in this case) for a reason. They agree to keep quiet for a reason.

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
Looking for 76-79 Honda Accords
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Jan 24, 2002
Messages
1,183
Location
Republic of Texas
Originally posted by 4g62bt2c30a:
There is a floating rumor of changes taking place on the BBSC system, Anyone know what the current status is?

black·mail [blák màyl ] noun

1. use of secrets to compel: the act of forcing somebody to pay money or do something by threatening to reveal shameful or incriminating facts about him or her. See also greenmail n. See also graymail

2. coercion: unfair threatening or incriminating of somebody, as a way of achieving a result


Now how's that blackmailing again???
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Sep 13, 2000
Messages
6,407
Location
Tulsa, OK
I was also wondering what the latest status of the BBSC. Dali's web site doesn't give a price for the Stage(?) 3 unit (Spearco aftercooler, BBSC, and low compression pistons). I'm kinda glad I didn't ask outright b/c of the flak involved. How a pretty innocent question evolves into argument among adults is now kinda funny.

I plan on asking Mark B. or the guy I plan to buy the SC from about it. Here's hoping I get a "Fu*& you and shut up." If that happens, I'll post it on both NSX forums and the email the listserver.

But seriously, this is getting better than a soap opera.
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Oct 25, 2001
Messages
4,845
Location
Northern California
Originally posted by NSXTC:
Hey All-

<snip>

In addition to these two major changes, there were a bunch of little items (fittings, brackets, etc) that were designed and are just being completed now. None of the changes were necessary to make a working SC, but these changes make the SC not only better looking, but much more reliable and bulletproof for the long run, which I would certainly agree are worth waiting for.

Perhaps access to the oil cap?
biggrin.gif
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Feb 3, 2002
Messages
1,535
Location
PA
This isn't that big of a deal. The last thread on this topic got a bit hostile and, most likely, left a bad taste in people's mouths. 4g62bt2c30a was asking a legitimate question, but in the context of the earlier thread, more was read into it.

I think with David's and NSXTC's posts we can all move on.

I have to say that the BBSC is starting to sound *very* tempting. I can't wait to see the final package!
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Jul 16, 2001
Messages
449
Location
Chicago
Originally posted by NSXTC:
Hey All-

I am one of the BB beta testers, and in an effort to put all the idle (and sometimes negative) speculation to rest, I talked to MB about what can be disclosed now. The BBSC is an absolutely awesome setup. Im not just saying that as a beta tester, I actually plan to buy the final unit like many of you when it comes out!

NSXTC: I think I remember you just had your engine's internals built...did your motor blow while testing a supercharger? Thanks.



------------------
jack of all trades, master of some.
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
May 9, 2000
Messages
688
Originally posted by Jimbo:
[stuff omitted]...or to have to respond to half-baked (or fully-baked) rumors....

I would like my rumors fried please and NOT baked. I find (half) baked rumors dry and hard to swallow.
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Feb 19, 2001
Messages
5,236
Location
Southern California
I saw the BBSC at the Camarillo AutoX. I had many questions similar to some of the group as to the particulars of the set up and tuning. I just walked up to the FactorX guys and their cars and started asking questions. It was no secret and anyone could have done the same. Everyone at the event had the same opportunity that I did in asking questions. Factor X Motorsports fueled and tuned the BBSC without any FMU, Additional Injectors or Power inverter. Ask and you shall recieve, and I did. The cars that I saw(3) ran great and I am also on the "list" to get one installed. FactorXMotorsports is located in Fullerton. Jon Martin, Mike Angel and Ken Nami.




[This message has been edited by ANYTIME (edited 26 March 2002).]
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Feb 21, 2000
Messages
1,413
Location
Austin, Republic of Texas
Originally posted by ANYTIME:
Factor X Motorsports fueled and tuned the BBSC without any FMU, Additional Injectors or Power inverter.]

Sort of. They sub-contracted to some really smart people who do this sort of thing for a living. But then, the best managers know when to hire the best people, right?
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Feb 19, 2001
Messages
5,236
Location
Southern California
Sort of? FactorX are the really smart people who do this sort of thing for a living and they do all of the work in house. The brochure I received from them has all of their qualifications. From Master ASE certified, Advanced Honda Techinical Training, Factory Honda Training, Motec Fuel Managment,to Pectal(Pi System)Certified. Experienced in all forms of racing. Such as Baja 1000, NHRA Pro Import,NAIRA, IDRC, SCCA and NASA. They also built the Nations fastest Lexus with 1400hp. They tuned the worlds fastest Honda, Battle of the Imports All Motor champion and won 1st place in SI challenge.
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Jul 27, 2000
Messages
689
Location
Kaaalifornia
Originally posted by true:
NSXTC: I think I remember you just had your engine's internals built...did your motor blow while testing a supercharger? Thanks.


Ha! now THATS how a rumor might start!
smile.gif
No, we did not have engine problems testing the BBSC. None of the beta testers have had any motor problems AFAIK. Our motor is built up with the low compression forged pistons to work in conjunction with the BBSC at higher boost levels to date only obtained with turbo systems and never before attempted with a supercharger. The high boost setup is still not done, so I don't have much to report on it now. Im running the standard BBSC boost right now which still feels really strong, so I can't imagine what probably 10-12 PSI will be like!
smile.gif
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Jun 9, 2001
Messages
1,264
Location
Casa di Rissoto
Originally posted by NSXTC:
I am one of the BB beta testers
A little birdie told me that one of the BBSC beta cars has a specially prepped motor (decked block, lightweight low-compression pistons, revised FMU, etc) and will be running at around ~13 lbs of boost (compared to the normal 5-6 lbs), and generate upwards of 450-500 crank hp.

This wouldn't be your ride, would it ?
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Jul 13, 2001
Messages
593
Location
Woodstock Ga. N of Atlanta
Originally posted by David:
Sort of. They sub-contracted to some really smart people who do this sort of thing for a living. But then, the best managers know when to hire the best people, right?

Allow me to clarify a few things for the group, but first let me say that I too am disgusted at how these discussions degenerate into personal attacks. MO is that Ken is totally justified in believing that 65gu4s6+rjh is not just being curious, he has a history of being antagonistic towards me and my project and IMO anyone who disagrees is not being totally honest. Ken is a good friend of mine, I am PROUD to note,
but sometimes goes too far in trying to defend me because of the amount of work that I do for the community as a whole, sometimes without any compensation. That said, I totally agree with David and others who think that this thread is totally legit and now actually supporting some good comments and info. Can we please, PLEASE leave the personal shit out of this.

Anytime, and David (who I am also proud to call a good friend) both have true info at their disposal, however one of them is more correct than the other. The reason for my silence so far, and convoluted talk this morning, is as Jimbo speculated. Legal stuff.
We are still negotiating the IP issues and the other NDA and Marketing agreements. The lawyers involved will already turn red when read even this small post, but that's okay.
After our (hopefully) last meeting on the subject this coming Monday, I hope to be free to declare all to the world without holdback. In the meantime, let me expound on David's comment- it is the most accurate to date- I DID hire an outside company to assist in the final stages of the fuel system. I have absolutely no problem telling you all, that I am not the *Best* person in the world to have done the fuel system. I did my own for the beta cars and it is STRONG. I have developed and installed MANY complete systems for forced and normally aspirated cars including NSX's, Integra's, etc. THIS kit however required something more. I wanted it to be totally electronically controlled. I wanted to be the first person to COMPLETELY re-write the factory chip to perform EXACTLY what I wanted it to do. We needed to crack all 5 tables on the chip, all the code, and start from scratch. Is there anybody out there qualified to do that? I am not. Factor X is not. No ONE technician who has spent the last THIRTY years building race motors and fixing the finest cars made, has also been able to learn THAT MUCH about computer programming. So as David said, the best people pick the best people for every specialized part of a complicated project, and I picked the best. Factor X is an awesome tuning company. My good friend Ken Nami has started this company as admin and is hooked up with two outstanding tuners- one who works for an Acura dealer as an NSXTech, and one who is an old associate of mine who used to work with me here in Phoenix. (small world) Ken and Co. hired who we all believe to be the best in the biz to do the computer work which INCLUDED dyno testing at all stages of code writing. Over 60 pulls were done on one car alone in three nights while the chip was being written.
This other company is one that you have all heard of, and will agree is the finest in the field, but until all contracts are signed and IP and security issues resolved, this is still not for public discussion. I would REALLY appreciate anybody here who has this info to keep it to themselves. As far as I am concerned, Factor X was asked to do the job for me, and they pulled off a real wonderful job for me. I can not say enough about how professional Ken and Co have been during this first phase of development. He could have sub contracted to minutelube for all I care- they co-designed and supervised the chip development and injector selections and are therefore the heroes of the fuel system as far as I am concerned. I look forward to many years of association with this group) (WARNING- while we are on this subject, this chip is so critically tuned to my SC, that if anybody tries to copy this chip an put it in their NSX, they better be prepared to buy a motor. This chip ONLY works with a BBSC)

As to the rest of the questions, rumors, and innuendo-
Absolutely NO MOTORS have been blown up by a faulty fuel system, early design or otherwise. Of the beta testers so far, one engine was destroyed- MINE, during the "how much boost can an NSX take" experiments. The answer to this question cost me about 5k$ and is therefore not available for free, or money for that matter. (g) One engine developed a bit of excess blow by in one cylinder only, and we do not yet know why. It is currently out of the car and awaiting JE to build some more low compression pistons. Ask Marc W, or Greg H, or Bryan Z about the reliability and other aspects of THEIR beta units. My beta unit was sent to Factor X and installed on one of their NSX's for the fuel system development, and that is the ONLY reason my car lost it's SC. Ten more kits are being assembled this week, and my car is the first customer for one. It will be available for test drives at NSteXpo on 4/11 and 4/12.

As to my two wonderful BBSC dealers, they have been left out of the fuel development issues because the lawyers said they just didn't need to know YET, and until all agreements are signed, that's just how it needs to be. Chris and Mark have taken allot of BS from people who are tired of waiting for kits and info about kits, because they could not update people completely. Well, this is just plain wrong, and very upsetting to me. This whole thing with rumors, and people thinking that I have not been entirely
honest, is also very upsetting. For those who don't remember, the only reason I even came out so early when we really didn't have enough info to share, was because some people found out just enough info about my SC for rumors to really get out of hand, so I came out with what we had to date thinking that facts, even incomplete facts, were better than all the rumors. I'm not sure that
was the thing to do or not, but it is done, and I will live with the results- ALL the results of that early info-letting.

As to all the other questions and rumors about reliability and such, the only part of the kit that is not yet *perfect* in my eyes, is the oil cap access. VERY observant of Hrant to notice- the oil cap is partly obstructed by the drive unit, but is still usable. We did an oil change on Greg Hardees beta car last Saturday, and I honestly believe it took no longer to fill the crankcase (once we removed the styrofoam peanut from the funnel) that it would have had the car not been BBSC equipped. It is a bit of a pain in the a--, but how often is THAT an issue. If you change the oil three times a year, my kit *may* have added a total of 5 minutes a year to your maintenance time. Nick is working on a remote oil filling neck or system to make this easier, but it is not a priority. I only even mention the issue because it would otherwise be dishonest to say there are NO issues remaining but that is really it. The rest is all production stuff, and it is not a
problem, it just has not yet been completely decided how many of which parts which CNC machine is going to grind out for me. I would also at this time send out a REALLY warm thank you to Curtiss at Max Rev for all his hard work programming the cnc that makes our parts. He is an artist in metal, and when you see the BBSC up close, you will understand why I say that.

As to install dates and shipping dates, we are about two weeks or less away from contacting those who have expressed interest in getting a BBSC. Those who have contacted Mark, Chris, or Jane about obtaing an install will be listed by the date they first contacted us. The first thirty to step up to the batters box will get the promised free install, and the rest of this initial order group will get a heavily discounted install price. Everybody who has ordered during this intro period- and ordered means sending a deposit- will be guaranteed the 5600. price. After that, the kit is going up approx 600. to cover the cost of the fuel system updates. The high boost kit is being tested on two cars starting in about ten days, and should be available in about 60 days if all works well. The after cooler is being built this week and will be tested on two beta cars during April. Its availability will depend on several variables- we won't go there yet. (g)

I would REALLY like to say thank you to David Bernett, Ken Sax, Jim Anders, Marc Weinberg, and everyone else in this forum who has patiently but continually given answers to people, even "he doesn't have to answer that" answers, on my behalf because you have faith and trust in what I do, and friends- I will NEVER let you down, if I can help it. And to Mark J and Chris W for representing me in such a professional manner and taking the heat for me for kits not yet shipped. And a special thanx to Lud, for- well its pretty obvious that without Lud's hard work on this site, we would not have such a cool place to hang out and share with each other!!(BG) I just wish we still had spell check so I don't look so egnorint.
(I seem to be suffering from Oscar fever)


Cheers,
Mark "Boosted" Basch
 

Sig

Experienced Member
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Sep 25, 2000
Messages
1,604
Location
Tyson's Corner, VA
In addition, due to the highly specialized nature of the ecu mated to the SC, does this negate the ability to run the car on both the SC and all motor if you pull the belt?

Could you plug back in the old ecu and run the car without too many problems?
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Feb 21, 2000
Messages
1,413
Location
Austin, Republic of Texas
Everything Mark has said about the engine management solution is true. The solution is really trick and I have been pimping the hell out of the kit to every NSX owner I know because of it. The company that did it has an absolutely flawless reputation in the marketplace (deservedly so, because they are very bright people and conduct business in an impecible manner).

If you don't fully understand the scale of the problems involved, it may not seem like much, but I personally consider it the best solution I have ever seen on any forced induction kit for any car. It is killing me not to be able to blurt it out because I am so impressed by it (I told Mark I wouldn't. We have no legal arrangement, but I respect him said I wouldn't and that is sufficient). But, oh, it hurts! I want to tell! I want to tell so bad!

Dig in.
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Messages
394
Location
Raleigh, NC
Great post Mark! Once again I think it shows our community what kind of person and businessman you are. I think we should all consider ourselves lucky to have someone so committed to our community. I'm sure many people do not know how many hours and heartache have gone into this project! I think everyone should just be patient and when the kit is 100% ready and availible, I imagine everyone will be completely satisfied!

------------------
Jason
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Mar 16, 2001
Messages
234
Location
Renton, WA
One other question that just popped into my head, along the same lines as the one about about whether the fuel system will still allow un-boosted running in the event of belt removal...

Will the chip still be tolerant to things like a variety of intakes, headers, and exhausts? I'm guessing it will be, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask...

-Mike
 
Top