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- 15 October 2021
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Are any companies working on more power upgrades? Car is 5 years old and still just basic power adders. I would think by now there would be way more upgrades than just cats, exhaust and tune.
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ECU crack? Bigger Turbos? E-Motors upgrade?
- Thread starter ItalianNSX3
- Start date
I know of at least one effort to crack the NC1 ECU, its pretty early on though so it'll be a while.
Honda has always been a challenge. If I recall correctly even the first generation has not been cracked (91-2005 NSX). AME had units that would piggy back on the Honda ECU. The problem as I recall was that the the ECU would start trying to fix the system and relearn how to run. I don’t believe they ever fixed that. You can run with a non Honda ECU, but there are some issues.
We've fully cracked the 91-94 and are actively tuning it.
95-05 are OBD-II and use a different chip layout, making it nearly impossible to modify.
I think those days are gone. After diesel-gate, I believe most manufactures are locking up their systems. I really don’t anticipate the NC1 will see anything other then the JB4 and alcohol injection. If you look at Ferrari, they do not allow engine mods. Nor do the other exotics.
When you spend $175,000 and up, screwing with your engine is not what most owners do. Keep in mind a car needs to be balanced, otherwise it is no longer really a capable vehicle.
Way back I recall one fellow who used turbos on his NSX. His Dyno numbers were above 700 hp. The problem was the car was not easily controlled. He had to limit hp until he was at some speed. Also the brakes, suspension and drivetrain were not up to that level.
I could be wrong, but how many people do you know who spent over $150,000 on their cars and are actively modifying their engines beyond simple add ones like exhaust or downpipes. Would you buy a 2017 or later Porsche 911 turbo S where the owner modified the engine especially if you were paying $150,000? What about an AudiR8, or McC, or Ferrari, or Lamborghini. My gut tells me people modify cars that are much less expensive. Just saying
When you spend $175,000 and up, screwing with your engine is not what most owners do. Keep in mind a car needs to be balanced, otherwise it is no longer really a capable vehicle.
Way back I recall one fellow who used turbos on his NSX. His Dyno numbers were above 700 hp. The problem was the car was not easily controlled. He had to limit hp until he was at some speed. Also the brakes, suspension and drivetrain were not up to that level.
I could be wrong, but how many people do you know who spent over $150,000 on their cars and are actively modifying their engines beyond simple add ones like exhaust or downpipes. Would you buy a 2017 or later Porsche 911 turbo S where the owner modified the engine especially if you were paying $150,000? What about an AudiR8, or McC, or Ferrari, or Lamborghini. My gut tells me people modify cars that are much less expensive. Just saying
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- Joined
- 15 October 2021
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- 12
I disagree with that. I had a 92 single turbo nsx fully built engine and it was way more fun than stock. I also own an audi R8 with a TT kit on it, those cars have tons of upgrade options available. And yes, I know tons of people with supercars who would spend money to upgrade. Underground racing and sheepy racing provide kits for R8s, lambos, mclarens, and other exotics. Its clear the nc1 has potential to upgrade, acura did it themselves with the type S. I'm saying, it would be worth it for a company to have a kit that upgrades the turbos, electric motors, etc... Upgrading isn't for everyone, but should at least be an option for buyers who want to spend money
All of the parameters you need to modify like fuel and timing (among many others) are stored in a separate EPROM chip on the 91-94 circuit boards. We can physically remove this chip from the board and substitute a different one, or install a Demon II module like in my ECU pictured above and tune in real time.
For the 95-05 cars, the tunable parameters are hard-coded into the microprocessor, so there is no way to access them without Honda's proprietary hardware and software. I suppose someone with enough time, resources and skill could reverse-engineer it, like we did with the 91-94, but that would take quite a long time.
As for the NC1, I think there is a fairly robust tuning scene for the hyper-exotics (UGR, Alpha, RUF, etc.), though the cost is exponentially higher. Those companies employ software and hardware engineers, it's a far cry from a kid in his garage on a laptop blowing up a B18 on NOS.
ok, so what year is the R8 that you modified? If your saying that car as modified is currently worth $150k or more then more power to you. I know a few folks who have exotics and none of them would modify their cars beyond simple add ones. Yes there are tuners out there who charge big bucks and offer warranties for their work often mirroring the manufacturers’.
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It’s a dirty industry. Maybe a few honest tuners and builders around. Warranty for modded car IMO will not pan out. How could a low volume shop afford that? And high volume shops does not mind losing a customer. It only cost me $30k to break my GTR. Others get in much much deeper and can afford the loss. Lots of wrecked Ford GT back in the day, and fast UGR Texas half milers. Having said that, hats off to the courage brains and rebellion against conservative engineers, emissions games, and corp lawyering.
It took Syvecs over 1yr to crack the McLaren ECU. They're a top notch tuner in the UK with McLaren literally in the vicinity and it still took them so long. McLaren is also a bigger market than the NC1. I'm just saying... I hope someone decodes the CAN signals for the NC1 but i'm not hopeful.
It's why I preach adding lightness to the car. It's relatively so much easier and will not affect reliability of the powertrain.
It's why I preach adding lightness to the car. It's relatively so much easier and will not affect reliability of the powertrain.
it's really commendable and impressive (these guys have balls) considering the EPA is cracking down hard on these guys like COBB. Go KTuner!
I've talked to some other guys who were working on reverse engineering the NC1 ECUs. The architecture is extremely similar to the 4 cylinder engines so from what I can tell its been pretty quick work compared to starting from scratch.
Syvecs mentioned that the Porsche was so quick to crack because it was effectively the same as another platform they've already done. So there was virtually no work to be done. This would be awesome if this was the case with the NC1. It would be like a cheat code.
Currently working with KTuner on this. Just sent some datalogs over the weekend for environmental calibration. I will update with more info shortly.
Attachments
I believe they are trying to gather data from multiple vehicles to fine tune the stage 1 before release.
I just received the file this morning but will have to wait a couple of days for the rain to subside before I can gather some more logs.
I am also interested in putting it on a Dyno so I can see the before and after comparison.
I am currently running the Fabspeed charge pipes, sport cats, and cat back. I would think with these mods the tune should make a significant difference.
I am still running the stage 1 tune but have not submitted any new data logs for a while. Everything is running as expected and the car feels great. No updates on full release as of yet on this end.
- Joined
- 26 April 2023
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Can you elaborate what you mean by "feels great" i.e. faster, smoother, 60-130, 0-60, etc.?
Meaning the overall feel of the car was improved after the flash.
The throttle response has improved over stock, so much so that on a very bumpy road it is actually a little sensitive.
The power through the entire RPM range feels greater and more linear. It pulls significantly harder to redline.
Traction is going to be an issue with the extra power. The tires (fairly new Continentals) loose grip more readily and leave you compensating more than normal. The rear end will step out more noticeably, so be prepared.
The normal daily drivability is the same, but as soon as you smash the pedal it feels like a totally different car. I am hoping we can extend this to the steering at some point to mach the feeling.
At the moment I don't have a way to verify 60-130 or 0-60. I am however confident in saying, it will be a major improvement on both accounts.
For me there are no drawbacks. I think this will be the best "bang for the buck" mod you can do to this car.
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- 26 April 2023
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Thank you for the detailed reply. I'm and probably the rest of the NSX owners are eagerly waiting for the release...
When it comes to the implementation technique, how does K Tuner's solution compare to SOS JB4? Is it more like a true flash where the parameters are updated and there's no need to keep a device installed in the car?
Yes, you also have the option to connect via Bluetooth if you wanted to use a different application to view the parameters.
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Hondata cracked the ECU for the new Civic Si in 3-4 months and the Civic Type R within...a month?
I think that like the original NSX there just isn't enough of a market to push the aftermarket to do the heavy lifting on the ECU. I think worldwide there are about 2000 of the new cars.
They made 16,000 EK9 CTRs and they will do about the same or more of the FL5 and those are all going directly into the hands of people who are more apt to tune cars, and it's basically the same ECU.
I remember in the 90's there was someone in every town that knew someone who could 'burn' you a new performance chip for your civic, and eventually you had 4 or 5 companies making fully tuneable add-on cards for pretty much every model of civic.
The Audi R8 06-14 production numbers are nearly 25k, with some reports saying over 40k world wide. It's no wonder there is a tuning market for that car. The NSX both new and old just never had the numbers for anyone to really be interested.
I think that like the original NSX there just isn't enough of a market to push the aftermarket to do the heavy lifting on the ECU. I think worldwide there are about 2000 of the new cars.
They made 16,000 EK9 CTRs and they will do about the same or more of the FL5 and those are all going directly into the hands of people who are more apt to tune cars, and it's basically the same ECU.
I remember in the 90's there was someone in every town that knew someone who could 'burn' you a new performance chip for your civic, and eventually you had 4 or 5 companies making fully tuneable add-on cards for pretty much every model of civic.
The Audi R8 06-14 production numbers are nearly 25k, with some reports saying over 40k world wide. It's no wonder there is a tuning market for that car. The NSX both new and old just never had the numbers for anyone to really be interested.
