Edmunds 2002 NSX review

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Nice con listed there about being to buy a Z06 Vette for half the price. I doubt you'd find a Z06 that cheap plus they forget to mention the LOW quality on those beasts. A friend needed a new clutch at 20K miles on his 2000, but the dealer couldn't do it because their Corvette mechanic had quit! Guess they don't trust the Cavalier techs to work on 'em
 
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Motor Trend mentioned the same thing about it not having Auto up on the drivers window. If thats the only complaint they are fishing pretty hard to find faults.

What is this world coming to if you can't hold the window button up for 2 seconds! GEEEZ
 
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What gets me is that they keep saying horsepower this horsepower that...and superior performance cars for less. The only car(s) I see that's remotely performing more superior for less would be the Z06 or a viper($?). The NSX still hits 60mph in under 5.0 seconds and will lap a track faster than many others.

Horsepower numbers aren't everything. It's funny how they harped on that fact when they didn't give performance numbers...just engine ratings.

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Got dat ol' vee six cilnder inder?

http://www.nextestdrive.net

[This message has been edited by scottjua (edited 04 January 2002).]
 
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The Porsche 911 (like the Carrera 4S) has 320 HP for about $80K list.

The 911 Targa has 315 HP for $75K list.

The Z06 has 405 HP for $45K, and yes you can get a discount. And yes, of course the Vette doesn't have the same level of quality and fit and finish as the NSX or the Porsche for that matter. But it is only $45K and it's faster and perhaps handles better than the NSX.

IMHO, with a base price of $ 90,989 (according to C&D) the NSX is just too expensive.

At a MSRP of $69,995, the NSX would sell in volumes much closer to what the Tochigi plant was originally designed for.

Now, if Honda is losing money on the NSX even at $90K, then I guess it doesn't matter and they might as well build the dozen or so cars a month they currently do for the "prestige" that they think the car provides.

A clean, low-mileage, used NSX is the bargain of the sports car world, in my opinion. I just don't think the new car listing at over $90K offers the same value proposition.

-Jim

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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
Looking for 76-79 Honda Accords

[This message has been edited by Jimbo (edited 04 January 2002).]
 
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The Z06 has 405 HP for $45K

Not exactly. The 2002 Corvette Z06 does have 405 hp, but the MSRP is actually $49,705 plus transportation charge of $645.

and yes you can get a discount.

My understanding is that it's virtually impossible to get a discount on the Z06, but perhaps it's included in GM's new $2002 promotion.

IMHO, with a base price of $ 90,989 (according to C&D) the NSX is just too expensive.

Again, not exactly. According to Acura's website, the base price of the 2002 NSX is $89,000 plus $745 transportation charge. Perhaps C&D is including the luxury tax (now 3 percent of the amount over $40,000) in their figure.

In any case, the Corvette IS a good value. But the Corvette has provided more power for less money than the Porsche 911 or the NSX since the day the NSX was introduced in 1990. This is nothing new.

At a MSRP of $69,995, the NSX would sell in volumes much closer to what the Tochigi plant was originally designed for.

New 2001 NSX's have recently been selling for approximately that amount.
 
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Reviews like that kill me. I agree with my friend Scott...HP numbers are not the be all end all in the car world. HP to weight, and actual HP numbers put to the ground excite me alot more than raw HP numbers.

I think it is amazing that an 11 year-old car is still even comparable to the latest and greatest that Chevy, Porche, and other have to offer.
 
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Ken,

You're probably right on the MSRP of the Z06. But many Z06s are discounted quite a bit...
http://www.z06vette.com/forums/

And yes, the Vette is included in the new $2002 promotion.

I think $45K is close to what many Z06 owners paid for their cars.

I still think that a $89-90K MSRP is too high for the NSX though. It might be that most 2001s were actually selling for that amount, but I also don't think it's good for the marque or the brand to routinely have to offer such deep discounts. It devalues the car and that's not a good idea for the long term.

I'd much rather see Honda bring the MSRP down to $70K. I think they would sell more cars and bring in more revenue even if the dealers didn't discount as much. Of course, they might lose more money, but that's another story.

I also think that it's possible that a $89K sticker price scares off potential buyers and they never even bother to look further at the NSX and to negotiate.

Although we "know better," the NSX and Honda doesn't have the mind and market share of Porsche. Money notwithstanding, I wouldn't trade my NSX for a Boxster or a 911, but obviously the bulk of the buying public think otherwise.

Honda has always to me meant excellent engineering, high quality and value for the money. They always had a better product at a lower price than the competition. And while it might be true that the real competition for the NSX is Ferrari, the actual competition, I believe is Porsche.

Honda had originally planned to build 6000 NSXs per year. They need that number to keep the interest alive. Just think how much more active and vital the NSXCA and NSXPOs could be at those sales number levels. And that translates into interest for Honda and Acura.

At some point, the very low production numbers simply represents failure instead of exclusivity.

At $69K, Honda would still have a very exclusive vehicle. It would be significantly more than Vette and that would be appropriate for the engineering and quality. It would just under a Porsche 911 and that would be appropriate too. It would make all those 911 buyers think twice.

Gee, perhaps Honda would even start moving enough units so that dealers would have a few on hand for test drives.

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
Looking for 76-79 Honda Accords
 
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You know.... IMO I am happy that Honda doesn't sell a lot of NSXes; I personally love the exclusiveness of this vehicle whether it was meant to be or not. This was one of the factors of me purchasing this over other cars. I also like the fact that NSXCA is not, IMO, that big to where we can almost keep track of NSXes out there. The club can become more personable. When I drive down the street and see a plethora of vettes and more than I would like to see Porsches, I am even more thankful of the rarity of the car. And BTW, I consider the NSX an exotic where the Porsche is a high performance car and the vette just a sports car.

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Kenji Ligon
91 Red CTSC NSX
 

Z18

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You know what, I LOVE the NSX, but I have zero issues with these car magazines and other reviews kicking ass on Honda letting them know that not upgrading the NSX yet is unacceptable.

Because it IS unacceptable. This stopgap minor change in 2002 was, IMHO, a bad move. We need the new NSX... the car is old, and getting very underpowered relative to the competition.

Yes, I love the NSX. Yes, I love the way it looks, the build quality, the feel, etc. But you have to really be a blind and irrational zealot, IMHO, to defend Honda to such a point that you get upset when these car magazines criticize how long it's been since the car was upgraded.

They are doing us a favor -- they are kicking Honda in the ass to get them going on the next NSX.

I know there are two rumors out there: 1. that the NSX will be lowered in price, switched to a steel body, etc. to compete with the Z06, etc. And 2. the price will be uped to 115k or so, into 911 Turbo territory.

I personally hope it's #2 (although I realize that hurts NSX lovers with less money). I truly want to see Honda release an exotic sports car that kicks Porsche, Ferrari, and Lamborghini in the ass.

I mean, can you imagine a VTECi V8 with 420HP or so? In an all alluminum car weighing hopefully 2900 pounds or so? It should get 3.9 or 4.0 0-60s, have all the comfort and luxury of a Porsche, better build quality, and performance-wise kick the 911 Turbo and 360 Modena's ass!

I would LOVE a car like that (and, FYI, I own a 360 and 911 Turbo as well).

-Z18
 
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Those aren't the only rumors. One even pegged the price at $143K. Shows you how much you can believe any of them.

Personally, I expect the NSX to remain aluminum bodied, to sell for the current price or perhaps slightly less (MSRP somewhere in the $75-90K range, not the $50K figure that was one of the prevalent rumors), get 350 hp from a V8 and do 0-60 in around 4.4 seconds or so, and not kick the butt of the 911 turbo or 360 (but be slightly faster than the 996 NA). And there will inevitably be those (if not immediately, then within a few years) who complain about how it's underpowered.
 
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are they aiming too LOW?

In 1991, they were faced with the 911 (early 993), Ferrari 328 (and coming 348), and Corvette (early C4?). They took on all comers, and then some...

10-odd years later they have the P911/996, 360 Modena and Vette C5 Z06. For them to NOT eclipse these cars would be ceding the high ground, and IMO settling for "less than the best"
 
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Kenji,

There's a difference between exclusive and low production and near death levels of production.

A few dozen cars a month is not good for the NSX community and it certainly not good for Honda.

Somewhere between 200 and 30,000 (a guess on the number of Vettes produced) there's a happy medium.

At 4000-6000 NSXs per year, the car would still be plenty exclusive. You wouldn't see them at every intersection. But at least you would have a nice used car market in the future (good luck for anyone wanting to buy a used 2000, compared to a used 91-92), and you would have a decent population of enthusiasts to have nicely attended local events.

And Honda would at least be making them in the numbers that they had always planned to do so that it would be worth their while and we can be assured that the car is continued in production.

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
Looking for 76-79 Honda Accords
 

Lud

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If they want the new NSX to be comparable to the car introduced over a decade ago, it has to be a Ferrari and Porsche fighter. Those manufacturers have made so much progress on their shortcomings with the 360 Modena and the 996 series Porsches that Honda's job is now much harder than it was when they were designing the original NSX against the 348 and 911s of the time.

The fact is the competition is all around 400 HP (and headed higher) with comparable weight. If Honda does not better their power/weight ratio, either by boosting power or even better reducing weight, then Honda may as well not even bother. The problem is only so much weight can be lost using known affordable fabrication techniques if you want to keep it as a luxury GT car.

I don't care if the next car is aluminum or not. I only care that it is stiff and light. If they go to a steel frame and composite panels, that doesn't matter to me as long it results in better weight and stiffness than the competition. If they have found a way to go all composite at a manageable price, that would be great too.

Ferrari, Porsche, Corvette all have huge name recognition as sports cars go, so Honda has to have a technically superior product just to compete. This means better handling, better performance, better maintenance, better value. Otherwise sales will continue to languish in the hundreds-per-year.

To be honest, I'm not sure there is a way to build a car that is considerably superior to the 360 Modena and Porsche 996 series cars and come in much under $100k unless Honda really wants to loose big money on each unit sold. Certainly it is a challenge I do not envy them having to tackle. I will wait and see along with everyone else. I hope they can do it.
 
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Lud,

I agree with you 100 percent.

A few comments, though.

1. You say:

If Honda does not better their power/weight ratio, either by boosting power or even better reducing weight

I agree with you that reducing weight is at least as effective for performance as boosting power, I think there are many others who look at power alone. It's unfortunate but true that some people (to cite one glaring example) say, "Even the BMW M5 has 400 hp nowadays" without also noting that its performance is constrained by a weight north of two tons. Just FWIW.

2. You state that Honda needs to equal the performance of the 360 and 996. I'm not sure which Porsche you are referring to. More specifically, the performance of the NA 911 (996) is roughly comparable to today's NSX and is a notch below the 360. The performance of the 911 turbo is a notch above the 360 and generally posts the best numbers of any production car today.

3. There is a corollary to your analysis. You note how it will be difficult to believe that Honda can equal the performance of the 360 or 996 for much under $100K. I agree. The conclusion to be drawn is that they have a choice between (a) continuing to sell the NSX at a price equal to or greater than today's, with the likelihood of continuing dismal sales and its probable demise, or (b) giving up the performance war and selling a car that is not much quicker than today's NSX for a lower price (say $50-75K MSRP), thereby incurring the wrath of those who want it to be competitive with the best in the business. A Hobson's Choice, to be sure.
 

Lud

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I wasn't clear - I meant the turbo p-bug. I agree with you on all the points you mentioned. However, I will no longer be an Acura owner in a few years if they go the low road with the 2nd generation.
 
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If they do go down the low road, then it’s simply “game over” for Honda in this department IMO. It would be very bad timing too, because there are too many world class, big HP flagship supercars in the pipeline from various manufacturers slated to debut in the next few years.

<img src=http://www.canadiandriver.com/previews/images/vw_w12c_1-1.jpg>
The VW W12 – 12 Cyl, 0-60 in 3.5 Sec. I heard it’s supposed to sell for less than $100k

<img src=http://www.online-supercars.com/supercars/images/big/toyota_supercar.jpg>
Toyota is planning to launch a new exotica into the supercar market as early as next year, in time for the company's arrival into the Formula 1 scene. The power will be provided by a 4.3 litre V8 from the Lexus GS/LS430 saloons, but with 400 bhp of power
 
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I just came back from the LA Auto Show and saw the 2002 NSX in person and it looks pretty much like all the pictures that were posted on this forum, so there were absolutely no surprises. I hung around the exhibit and listened to what other people were commenting and it was about 50/50 as far as people liking the new front end or not. I highly doubt this revision will increase sales, although I'm tempted to get this latest version because I do like the new headlights but not the rims. I hope the coupe will still be available.
Anyway, I agree with Lud that Honda has a tougher job with the next generation since its competition is more fierce and strong. I hope they make the car between $90-100K with at least 400hp and lighter weight. Making the car more expensive hopefully won't cause too much of a depreciation with the present generation while keeping it somewhat exclusive. If they choose the lower route, I may be an ex-Acura owner also.
On the side, I was talking to a Ferrari salesman at the auto show and he said no one is taking a deposit for the 360 because they are all sold out for several years. You can only get one used in other words. I wonder if the NSX will ever become this popular.
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'00 NSX-T, silverstone/blk, #252

[This message has been edited by CChung (edited 06 January 2002).]
 

BB

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Speaking of the VW W12, click <a href=http://www.canadiandriver.com/previews/vw_w12.htm>here</a> for some additional pictures. Top speed of 217 mph and a price of around $150,000. I also read that VW's new strategy is to go after all market segments, including exotics.

With stuff like this coming out I suspect Honda will either give us a true supercar NSX successor to compete with this stuff, or greatly disappoint us by turning the NSX into a lower-end model that can sell in 'Vette like numbers. I really don't see any in-between. What would be the point otherwise?


[This message has been edited by BB (edited 06 January 2002).]
 
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Where did you guys get the pricing info on the VW W12? I heard (from Motorvision I believe) that the W12 is suppose to be VW's second most expensive car. The price is supposed to be somewhere between the Murcelago and the Bugatti Veyron. I was under the impression that it would be somewhere between $300k and $1 million. Perhaps my information is incorrect.
 
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Originally posted by CChung:
On the side, I was talking to a Ferrari salesman at the auto show and he said no one is taking a deposit for the 360 because they are all sold out for several years. You can only get one used in other words. I wonder if the NSX will ever become this popular.
This seems to be a West Coast phenomenon, in particular SoCal... I believe you can only get OLDER model used 360s due to emissions and federalization regs.

In the SouthEast, its not uncommon to pay LIST for either the 360 Modena (coupe) or 360 Spider, although your deposit MAY be tied down for awhile

JMHO, but I for one hope that the new NSX attains this level of popularity, and even a reasonable scarcity of supply, particularly outside of red/yellow/black colors.
 
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My understanding is that the market for high-end exotics (and particularly the 360 Modena) has softened considerably with the economic recession, and that they can easily be had for MSRP, no waiting.

The VW W12 – 12 Cyl, 0-60 in 3.5 Sec. I heard it’s supposed to sell for less than $100k

I think the price is supposed to be in the $200-250K range.

While lots of people say that they want the NSX to be a "supercar and damn the price", the fact is that the market for sports cars that cost over $100K is extremely small. Porsche doesn't sell all that many of the 911 Turbo, as capable as it is. Throw in all the Ferraris and Lamborghinis and a few one-offs like gray market McLarens, and you'll find that the total number of cars sold in the States each year in this segment is no more than 2,000. There's no way this market segment will also sustain an NSX with annual unit sales in four figures. If Honda decides to go this way, it will quickly become bye-bye, NSX.
 
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I really like the pre-2002 nsx model, I wonder, if some "minor" and more tasty upgrade in the look (for example I do not like that much all those lines between panels we have in our gen nsx and the back big '80s style taillight... the rest is almost perfect
wink.gif
) and a semi-big enginge upgrade to 3.8l 380 ps (this is not too pushed as it is in the s2000 and should leave some torque at low rpm
wink.gif
) would have not made a good "new" nsx without needing a completly new 2004 model?

Ok, ok, it would not BEAT the 911TT or the Murcielago, but who cares? Why should we BEAT cars that cost two-three times as much?
It would have done the job well and it would be a very good balanced, exotic, beautiful, powerful ... car that would maybe sell 1000-2000 units per year (as the '90 model was in '90! Remember in '90 it was not the exotic killer in terms of performance too...)

just my stupid opinion
smile.gif
 
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