focal tweeter mounting locations

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25 January 2008
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ELLICOTT CITY, MD
I have a set of focal 165 v2 that im looking to install in my car in the near future. I have read several posts from 2005 to current about ideal locations for tweeters. I was interested in putting the tweeter in the a-pillar. I notice this has not been done alot. Reason why??? My idea was to send the a pillars off to HCA to get them mounted in the a pillars to look factory. Any idea of mounting locations on the a pillars?? But some of the post say to mount near the 6.5 inch driver or the upper door. I will mount any where that sounds the best. So from your experience where is the ideal location. Thanks for your suggestions. please include pictures. Im in iraq and you have to include the pics a certain way for me to be able to view them. The computers over here block most pics.
 
I will be mounting mine(JL Audio XR650CSI) in the A pillar triangle piece by the side view mirrors. Mine came with a little angled tweeter mount. Maybe? I dunno yet, still contemplating maybe mounting them on the speaker mounting plate along with all speaker and crossover.

I would suspect some people don't mount them there because more commonly, tweeters sound better the closer they are to the speaker.
 
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A-pillar will give you better imaging and less reflection. Closer to the speaker gives more proper time alignment and more equal path lengths on L&R. Each has its advantages, there is no "best spot". But I''l take another look and let you know.
 
Not really, no.

For SQ, as most every road vehicle positions the driver offset, in a crappy position within the sound stage.... the ideal location is as far away as possible- far bottom of the door or kick panel locations are ideal.

The reason is triangulation. You want to keep the relative L&R paths as equa-distance as possible between the emitter and your ear to circumvent timing, spacial, and other issues. If you mount them in the A-Pillars, the distance from L channel to drivers ear versus R channel to drivers ear is going to be relatively high.

If you equalized the triangulation by mounting as far away in front of you as possible within line of sight, the relative distances will be closer to equivalent. This location will also further dampen reflections via the interior headliner, instead of the opposing door glass.
 
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The reason is triangulation. You want to keep the relative L&R paths as equa-distance as possible between the emitter and your ear to circumvent timing, spacial, and other issues. If you mount them in the A-Pillars, the distance from L channel to drivers ear versus R channel to drivers ear is going to be relatively high.

If you equalized the triangulation by mounting as far away in front of you as possible within line of sight, the relative distances will be closer to equivalent. This location will also further dampen reflections via the interior headliner, instead of the opposing door glass.

Does distance inside a car really matter? I mean if the tweeter was mounted in the A-pillar, we're talking about a distance of 3ft to the left side and 6ft to the right side max. If sound travels at 1129 ft/sec, that means the difference in timing is 0.0025 sec or ~3 thousandths of a second max. Can the human ear detect that? I would think the sound reflections off the the interior of the car would play a larger role than the distance factor. . .
 
Does distance inside a car really matter?

Obviously, if I blind fold you and move the location, angle, etc... of the tweeter even a little, your brain will know.

Their are all kind of tricks we used to play back when we built some of the SPL monsters; such as walling off the car at 1/4 the wave length of the resonant frequency of the vehicle. Remember, sound waves don't just travel and stop within a confined space.



Can the human ear detect that?

The ear, brain and nural processing potential in man is pretty amazing, and to this day the subject of new discovery. A remarkable fact is that the pinna, the cartilage-filled structure surrounding the ear canal is a vital part of direction sensing.

It can use precise timing differences between the sounds arriving at each ear to accurately judge the location of a sound with a high degree of accuracy.

That said, it is my understanding that time delays on the order of 0.1 millisecond can effect the brain's perception of sound imaging. Time delays between the left and right ear are on the order of 0.5 milliseconds are quite important in spacial cognizance. Delays greater than 50 milliseconds are interpreted as echoes. Source accuracy something on the order of 5 degrees in azimuth.

So, foremost in this instance what you will detect is the difference in sound intensity between the left and right ears. This is easily solved by using the balance control.

However, you will also detect the difference in time-of-arrival between reflections, decay characteristics, etc... which no DSP unit can ever hope to solve for you, as the mathematical problem all but requires a super computer to get right.

I have some books and sites I could dig up if you wanted to discuss more.

No different than pro home systems, their is no substitute for a good listening environment and proper transducer placement. As vehicles (especially an NSX) are absolutely horrible listening environment for a true audiophile; it will always become a series of compromises to extract the best out of the worst.
 
I'm not going to get into some deep technical discussion on acoustics, because I don't want to confuse everyone. This is a simple question, that has a relatively simple answer. I'll talk in simple terms.

Equalizing pathlengths is important. It is not important because of time delays as it is because of the drop in overall level (volume) as your ear moves away from the speaker, especially in higher frequencies which is what the tweeter is doing. What you are hearing as your head moves left to right between two speakers is mainly a difference in volume, and less a change in time delay.

A car's acoustics are far from ideal... sonic reflections are everywhere. Having the tweeter up high focuses the energy near ear level, providing you with much more direct sound and less reflected sound. Having the tweeters down low puts the tweeter more in alignment with the woofer, creating a more coherent sound. However each is producing heavy amounts of reflections at that point. It is very important that if there are lots of sonic reflections, that the original wave arrive at your ears FIRST. Before the reflected waves. To get this done, the tweeter needs a clear shot at your ear.

Your most ideal location is (in order of importance):

1) The spot that gets you the most direct sound and the least early reflections.

2) The spot that equalizes the distance between the two tweeters to your ears. This is most often the case at the kickpanel, and why some do it that way.

3) The spot that puts it as close to the woofer as possible, creating better time alignment with it.

Electronic items can aid this, but they cannot fix everything. They make some better, and some worse. For example electronic time delay can make the driver seat sound better, but it makes it worse for the passenger. you always want to do as much as possible mechanicaly first.

Now this is one of those subjects where there are a lot of experts with a lot of opinions. These talks quickly escalate as two individuals argue a point about acoustics and I do not want to get into that.

Your best bet may actually be to get the system up and running, hookup some long wires to the tweets, and just velcro them them in your top 3 locations and have a listen. See what you think is best. I already went through some long technical dicussion on the before, but the Focal tweeter has a much wider dispersion than many others. The concave shape is superior to a dome. Much of the placement logic that applies to standard domes won't apply as much to that tweeter.

Good luck.
 
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Your most ideal location is (in order of importance):

1) The spot that gets you the most direct sound and the least early reflections.

2) The spot that equalizes the distance between the two tweeters to your ears. This is most often the case at the kickpanel, and why some do it that way.

3) The spot that puts it as close to the woofer as possible, creating better time alignment with it.

This should get the job done. :wink:

bose-headphones.jpg
 
I'm not going to get into some deep technical discussion on acoustics, because I don't want to confuse everyone. This is a simple question, that has a relatively simple answer. I'll talk in simple terms.
Good luck.

Golly gee if that isn’t a condescending comment.
You make it sound like everyone who posts here is an idiot. Some of us are pretty well versed in acoustic theory. Unfortunately while all that you have said is true, you can throw 99% of it out the window when it comes to a harsh environment like the interior of a car. Like the comment on concave VS dome and the distribution of each. By your own admittance of wanting the most direct path to your ear, with the least amount of reflection…would you not want a dome? How does that make the concave superior? It doesn’t, at least not in a car environment. They are just a different way of building a driver, which for what its worth the dispersion of the tweeter in that configuration is secondary. The primary reason for building the concave dome is power handling, at least when it was first designed. It does have its own dispersement issues; this is why 99.9999% of the time they have a bridge over them with a phase plug on it.

While the time alignment you speak of is important, the issue is the blocking the higher frequencies. In the car, especially the NSX when mounted low in the door, your legs, clothes and early reflections of the door panel all disrupt the tweeter more than the arrival time of having them mounted in the pillar. 99% of people will hear the tonal “hole” from a blocked high frequency long before they will here the “shifting” from arrival time.

Sorry back to the OP question,


I recommend the pillars; you can use the “bad harsh reflections” to your advantage by using the windshield to load the tweeter, kind of like a compression driver, or horn. This will give an even “stage” across the front of the car, while maintaining an even frequency range (at least better than your leg blocking would). You will want to attenuate the tweeters 5-7 DB sometimes more. This is the biggest mistake people make by not lowering the output of these drivers. The reason for this is three fold, the first being they are horn loaded up against the windshield, creating a boost of up to 3 db (this is a guestimate).
The second would be they are closer to your ear, this makes them seem louder. (I know someone asked if the human ear can here such small differences….If you take 2 speakers @ one meter the ear will here both, move one 3 mm back, and the ear will only here the one closer.) Makes you wonder how a row of speakers seems louder huh….that’s another topic.
The third and final reason is the woofer/mid is mounted 2-3 inches behind a door panel, behind metal mesh and grill cloth. Since sound is just the movement of air….you have to realize these things will lower the output of the speaker. All the people who say this isn’t true…go grab some grill cloth, just grill cloth…not the door, or metal mesh and talk to your wife thru it, ask if there is a difference.

Back in the day I used a lot of Focal drivers. Mostly the TLR tweets that were like $1500 a pair, and sometimes the bigger brother to those, GULP $$$$. They were so efficient we would knock them down 12-15 db, even when matched to the TLR woofer. These tweeters should fire directly across at each other, not angled back or up. Just straight across at each other.

I think most people dont mount them there because it is not easy to do...seems like most people mount them high and back on the door...which is about the worst place to mount anything.....you will not have a mount with the focals that will put them at the right angle, so you have to go custom. You will only be able to knock them down by 3-6 db so you might have some issues there also. and because most people try and bring room accustics into play in the car and but them close to the other driver, so they never even try out a pillar. Look back at all the great sounding cars from Iasca....more that 1/2 had tweets in the pillars, and/or manipulated early reflections..... Of the other halk, half of them had a horn loaded driver configuration.


It has been my experience, with over 15 years in the AUDIO industry…not home theater, but 2 channel audio that it is easier to make a car sound really good than it is a room..
But it is FAR easier to make a room sound GREAT, than it is a car. Since your driving your car anyway, with road noise, engine etc etc really good is really good enough.
 
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This should get the job done. :wink:

bose-headphones.jpg

Oh no! More Bose products! Replace the stock Bose speakers with Bose headphones?

Anyway even though it seems like a good solution (even if it is a joke), I think it's illegal to drive with headphones on (well in CA it is).
 
Golly gee if that isn’t a condescending comment.
You make it sound like everyone who posts here is an idiot. Some of us are pretty well versed in acoustic theory.

I didn't mean to sound that way at all, if it came across that way I am sorry. I just know that anytime there is an audio question all the experts come out and argue technical points endlessly trying be the right and prove the other guy wrong... meanwhile 90% of the people reading the post looking for some real info have tuned out and gone home. And I just didn't want to get involved in a thread like that. I'm trying to help the OP not prove my audio knowledge.

Anyway on the domes I was specifically comparing most standard domes to the particular focal driver we are talking about here. And it most certainly does have better dispersion characteristics. I already discussed this in detail HERE.
 
I didn't mean to sound that way at all, if it came across that way I am sorry. I just know that anytime there is an audio question all the experts come out and argue technical points endlessly trying be the right and prove the other guy wrong... meanwhile 90% of the people reading the post looking for some real info have tuned out and gone home. And I just didn't want to get involved in a thread like that. I'm trying to help the OP not prove my audio knowledge. I understand....apology appriciated

Anyway on the domes I was specifically comparing most standard domes to the particular focal driver we are talking about here. And it most certainly does have better dispersion characteristics. I already discussed this in detail HERE.

But its not BETTER, just different, and almost assuridly not better in the car. IMO :)
 
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