Gun owners?

davidf

davidf

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Joined
14 May 2007
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Location
Beaumont, Texas
I'm looking into a new subcompact. I've had many, but nothing I've actually wanted to keep. I'm seeking feedback from anyone who owns/owned this:
http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=24
I'm a big fan of 1911 framed guns. While it's quite pricey, this may be the last subcompact I'll buy {hopefully}. I appreciate any pos/neg feedback. I'm looking at the EMP 9mm version.
 
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The feel of the 1911? You mean big, heavy, and outdated?

Major gun collector here...and I can't stand 1911's. I love the M1 Garand too, but it's been far subpassed but better and lighter technology.

If you must get a compact 1911, I'd ONLY opt for the Kimber version. Very well made and pretty reliable even for a 1911.:tongue:
 
I have Kimbers Pro Covert II. Fantastic gun. 1911 may be dated, but soooo many companies still copying them.:wink:
 
I shot USPSA and built full house 1911's for over ten years in the late 80's and 90's. I recently attended the 100 aniversery celebration/operators class at Ft. Harmar. Bill Wilson was there and John Miller. Small guns were discussed some, but getting any sub 5" 1911 totally reliable is difficult. It can be done though. I'm currently studying what Bill Wilson told me about how to make them work. Sorry, but Kimbers are not reliable guns. Just sell them. I'm currently building a SA micro-compact as surprisingly i know of at least one which appears to be very reliable. But SA's are not built all that well, so the price of the Micro is steep as you will probably end up replacing half of the gun. Buy one used if you want to try that one. The ACP colts with cone barrels tuned to delay the unlocking process is another tach i'm taking.

Single column nines just don't get it for me. While the EMP does have a nice trigger, the new mini nines don't, have marginal bullet performance AND no capacity. They just don't make sense compared to say a Glock 26. Of coure Glocks are about the least fun gun to shoot on the planet. Whippy, not accurate, and of course that safe/sucky trigger.

The 1911 when totally reworked such as a Wilson gun or a full custom gun like i used to build is probably the most fun gun an experienced shooter will ever enjoy. The trigger quality and accuracy are unequaled by ANY pistol ever produced. But the 1911 is for advanced shooter only that have put in at least three years of intense competition. If thats you, my advice is to sell sell all your junk 1911's and buy or build a top notch high level 1911. Steel guns are really nice. They don't jump around on you with that heavy slide on top of that nothing frame.

My take at the moment- HK USP 40's for home defense, Glock 19 or 26 for carry, a dead reliable 1911 for fun and games.
 
I forgot to mention the principals of the 1911 celebration i mentioned. It was a Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers production. Probably the two best handgun trainers in the world. And they both are very experienced 1911 guys. They have another class/celebration in Oct which is full. You might be able to get on a cancellation list for that class. There is also another class later in Cali. Go to vickerstactical.com.
Attend one of these if you can. It's a once in a lifetime event. Larry Vickers headed the "unit" for 15 years. Both Hackathorn and Vickers are no bullshit awesome. A humbling experience. And actually shooting with Bill Wilson and his gunsmiths and then chatting with them in the evenings is a priceless experience. I'm very impressed with Wilsons latest work. While 1911's place in todays tactical environment may be very small, if 1911's are in your blood for good or bad, embrace it. But don't waste your time with anything but the best.
 
TANTO said:
I shot USPSA and built full house 1911's for over ten years in the late 80's and 90's. I recently attended the 100 aniversery celebration/operators class at Ft. Harmar. Bill Wilson was there and John Miller. Small guns were discussed some, but getting any sub 5" 1911 totally reliable is difficult. It can be done though. I'm currently studying what Bill Wilson told me about how to make them work. Sorry, but Kimbers are not reliable guns. Just sell them. I'm currently building a SA micro-compact as surprisingly i know of at least one which appears to be very reliable. But SA's are not built all that well, so the price of the Micro is steep as you will probably end up replacing half of the gun. Buy one used if you want to try that one. The ACP colts with cone barrels tuned to delay the unlocking process is another tach i'm taking.

Single column nines just don't get it for me. While the EMP does have a nice trigger, the new mini nines don't, have marginal bullet performance AND no capacity. They just don't make sense compared to say a Glock 26. Of coure Glocks are about the least fun gun to shoot on the planet. Whippy, not accurate, and of course that safe/sucky trigger.

The 1911 when totally reworked such as a Wilson gun or a full custom gun like i used to build is probably the most fun gun an experienced shooter will ever enjoy. The trigger quality and accuracy are unequaled by ANY pistol ever produced. But the 1911 is for advanced shooter only that have put in at least three years of intense competition. If thats you, my advice is to sell sell all your junk 1911's and buy or build a top notch high level 1911. Steel guns are really nice. They don't jump around on you with that heavy slide on top of that nothing frame.

My take at the moment- HK USP 40's for home defense, Glock 19 or 26 for carry, a dead reliable 1911 for fun and games.
Click to expand...

You sure glocks arent accurate? :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPvMJcmpVsQ&feature=player_detailpage
 
chumch said:
You sure glocks arent accurate? :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPvMJcmpVsQ&feature=player_detailpage
Click to expand...

Didn't you know? It's never the shooter. It's always the equipment...

LoL

With that said, everyone has their preferences, and depending on your tendencies a shooter may shoot better with certain equipment and it's characteristics.

I choose Glock because they are reliable for a casual shooter like myself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpvWwc70uEM&feature=related

P
 
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chumch said:
You sure glocks arent accurate? :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPvMJcmpVsQ&feature=player_detailpage
Click to expand...

I could have worded my comments better. Theres inherent accuracy of the gun itself and then there is hitability. The Glocks are certainly "combat accurate" meaning at the short ranges pistols are generally shot at, they posess adequate accuracy. Some Glock models are known to be fairly accurate, and others not so much. The Glock trigger is so bad that it doesn't matter unless you have a range on your property and shoot daily. An fully accurized 1911 is a tac driver, and the trigger allows mere mortals to take advantage of that at distance. When i was competing I could shoot 25yd head shots with a 1911 or browning high power most of the time when not under time pressure. I shot a Glock 19 for two seasons. Getting those distance head shots with the Glock was much less sucessful. I still to this day remember all the complete misses i used to get weak or strong hand only. It's a great carry gun because of the terrible trigger (that makes it safer), but you won't be doing any 100yd shots for grins. Hickok45 obviously shoots daily and i think he mentioned 75 ft(?) so those steel targets are not as far as they look in the vid. Steel of course is not the mediam to judge accuracy. Try to borrow a full house 1911 and punch some paper, you will understand. From my experience though, you either get the 1911 or you don't. Any many just aren't able to handle the 45 caliber. The Glock 21 is pretty accurate BTW.
 
TANTO said:
I shot USPSA and built full house 1911's for over ten years in the late 80's and 90's. I recently attended the 100 aniversery celebration/operators class at Ft. Harmar. Bill Wilson was there and John Miller. Small guns were discussed some, but getting any sub 5" 1911 totally reliable is difficult. It can be done though. I'm currently studying what Bill Wilson told me about how to make them work. Sorry, but Kimbers are not reliable guns. Just sell them. I'm currently building a SA micro-compact as surprisingly i know of at least one which appears to be very reliable. But SA's are not built all that well, so the price of the Micro is steep as you will probably end up replacing half of the gun. Buy one used if you want to try that one. The ACP colts with cone barrels tuned to delay the unlocking process is another tach i'm taking.

Single column nines just don't get it for me. While the EMP does have a nice trigger, the new mini nines don't, have marginal bullet performance AND no capacity. They just don't make sense compared to say a Glock 26. Of coure Glocks are about the least fun gun to shoot on the planet. Whippy, not accurate, and of course that safe/sucky trigger.

The 1911 when totally reworked such as a Wilson gun or a full custom gun like i used to build is probably the most fun gun an experienced shooter will ever enjoy. The trigger quality and accuracy are unequaled by ANY pistol ever produced. But the 1911 is for advanced shooter only that have put in at least three years of intense competition. If thats you, my advice is to sell sell all your junk 1911's and buy or build a top notch high level 1911. Steel guns are really nice. They don't jump around on you with that heavy slide on top of that nothing frame.

My take at the moment- HK USP 40's for home defense, Glock 19 or 26 for carry, a dead reliable 1911 for fun and games.
Click to expand...
Very nice writeup. In fact I'm kicking my own self right now. I very recently passed on a deal from a friend on a Wilson Professional for a mear $1700.00, while I saw his $2400.00 reciept that went with it. My best friend bought it instead but I had 1st dibs.:frown: I may consider selling the Kimber for a WC.:wink:
 
Kehr

The Kahr is an interesting discussion. From what i have heard, and i have searched for "issues" with the polymer Kahr's, there were some issues that have been fixed. Although one should keep in mind that very often with these second teir brands when they have an issue and claim it's fixed, it very often is not fixed. I owned the original steel Kahr and it functioned well for the modest amount of rounds i put thru it. I did test fire a the latest polymer nine and i did have a two failures to feed to first round when working the slide to chamber. When i locked the slide back first and then used the slide release it was OK. Antidotal for sure, but that left a bad taste for me. I have talked to a few others on line that have never had this issue. Hhmm.

So i haven't been able to get myself to get one for actual carry. Many pro's carry it as a backup, but my guess is that most don't seem to trust it for a primary gun, although with it's limited capacity thats not surprising. These small guns rarelly get fired enough to know how reliable they are. Magazines lie, believe it. You need a gun to go 600 rounds with the load you are going to shoot, so thats gets expensive with state of the art hollow points. And 9's MUST use hollow points, always. Is it a good gun?, you can't rely on others. invest in 600 rounds and find out yourself. From my experience, 'little" guns like this will not go 600 rounds. Then the decision depends on your risk profile. Obviously many of us civilians are carrying guns in the summer time that are not proven reliable (bad on us). And obviously again you don't want to go into gang territory looking for your lost sister with a single column nine. Lots of tradeoffs. I very occasionally carry a modified PPK or an LCP. But if that guy starts shooting up the local McDonalds you are eating at, are you going to intervene with 7 round of nine or less? Thats why i currently like the Glock 26. With a two round mag extension, you have 13 rounds. When you get down to these small capacity/caliber guns, I just might do better with a good knife. I'm a big fan of spyderco pocket knives. It's somethng you can have with you 24/7. But thats another thread.
 
Wilson Guns

Without going into a full Wilson history, the older guns are not worth the money IMO. Starting around 7-10 years ago Wilson really upped their game. They have always been overpriced, but now they may be worth it compared with the other options. Just didn't want anyone to go out and spend a bundle on an old wilson. I was very impressed with the continuing R&D that Wilson is doing. And i'm one hard dude to impress. Bill Wilson really does care about his customers. But his customers have to pay thru the nose to play. Wilsons guns are considered "shop" guns. Thru the years shop guns were built quickly to a price point. Custom guns by little guys like me could and should be better than a Wilson as we spend a whole lot more hours on them. But the 1911 is a tolerance nightmare from mfgr to mfgr. You throw in all kinds of marginally functional aftermarket parts and even the best custom gun builder can have problems. Thats why wilson and many others now have their own frames and slides built to their KNOWN tolerances. This fact alone makes guns like Wilsons "shop" guns perhaps better than a full custom colt. And you have a lifetime warranty. If i were not sort of locked into my own guns, i would probably, gulp, spend the $2700 on a wilson.
 
I don't know if it was touched on yet but the Springfield Micro 45 is a nice handling and IMHO, a handsome piece. You started with the EMP and the 45 sounds more like what you were looking for. I am a big fan of the M1911 platform- I guess that I like guns that look like guns.

Double stack Paras like the Warthog are an interesting variety also, don't know if you considered that.
 
Before everyone throws out their preferences, it would help us if you told us what is the purpose of the subcompact.

Do you plan on using it for conceal carry? What are your requirements? Where do you plan on carrying it? How important are accessories to you? Are you using it at night or day? What kind of environment will you use it? Do you get in and out of your car a lot? What are you goals with the gun? Etc.

The best gun will depend on your situation and what you need it for. Just because someone like a particular gun, doesn't mean that it is the best gun for your circumstances. Different guns have different purposes.
 
curtsr said:
I don't know if it was touched on yet but the Springfield Micro 45 is a nice handling and IMHO, a handsome piece. You started with the EMP and the 45 sounds more like what you were looking for. I am a big fan of the M1911 platform- I guess that I like guns that look like guns.

Double stack Paras like the Warthog are an interesting variety also, don't know if you considered that.
Click to expand...
I had the Hog9 for 3 years. I was nice feeling gun but it had hicups shooting ball ammo, while it run smooth as butter with expensive hollow point ammo.:frown:
 
NSXclear said:
Before everyone throws out their preferences, it would help us if you told us what is the purpose of the subcompact.

Do you plan on using it for conceal carry? What are your requirements? Where do you plan on carrying it? How important are accessories to you? Are you using it at night or day? What kind of environment will you use it? Do you get in and out of your car a lot? What are you goals with the gun? Etc.

The best gun will depend on your situation and what you need it for. Just because someone like a particular gun, doesn't mean that it is the best gun for your circumstances. Different guns have different purposes.
Click to expand...
I've had several subcompacts. While I've had my CC for years I rarely wear a gun. It mostly goes from car to car with me. I like my full frame 45 but on a daily it is a bit large. I really did like my XD9 sub, but my true love is for the 1911 frame feel. It will need to be a 9mm because I don't like shooting a 3' barreled 45, they are a handful.
 
We all got really excited about the EMP because we actaully believed all that advertising about it being a scaled down gun. Well, it's actually only less than 1/8" smaller in the grip from front to back. Thats downsizing? But here are the real issues with the SA micro guns. No one has yet been able to get a 3" gun reliable. Did SA do it? Maybe, and i'm hoping as i'm building one right now, but probably not. The barrel fit is wildly unusual. And the micro 45kicks like a mule, although thats not a deal breaker for me. Assuming they do work, you still have the fairly poor SA quality. I've built many custom 5" guns from SA's. I save the frame, the slide, the mag catch, usually the slide stop and fire pin stop and mainspring houseing. All else goes in the trash. So you could easily drop say $1600 into and EMP and then find out there is an issue with the frame or slide. The micro i'm working now keeps "walking out" the slide stop. That means either the slide stop is bad (i hope) or more likely the frame holes or drilled off. I was just looking at the hammer/sear surface and noticed that the sear is only hitting the hammer on one of the two hooks. Again, i'm hoping the hammer of sear are off (haven't had the chance to figure this out), but it's just as likely that the frame hammer and sear holes are off. Springfield Armorys are known to many as SpringDogs. SA is a criminally incompetant company. Been that way all of my life. SA 1911's are only good for "starting stock" for custom guns as IF the machineing is right, their metalurgy is quite hard, something we look for when building a gun to hopefully go 200k rounds. And there is no safety crap. Most 1911's are pretty soft compared to the SA's. I bought two micros's only because i found them in $750 range and thought i'd play with them. But starting with a colt is better for 99% or individuals. The quality is light years better. IF you are bulding a full house custom 5" gun though, the SA will net you an excellent gun that will hold up a long time.
 
Speaking of Glocks, or Glucks as a often call them, if you have smallish hands like i do, check out bowietachticalconcepts.com. While lots of guys are carving on the glocks, Dave Bowie completely removes the uneeded backstrap, fills the back with an exact matching plastic and then contours the whole thing. Makes the gun feel fantastic and changes the grip angle back to where it should have been to start with, and improves my grip a lot. In fact i don't think i'd be using Glocks without his grip reduction. Daves work is outstanding. Had a 19 and 26 done for my wife and liked them so much, i'm carrying them. The other thing i like about Glucks is the availability of factory high cap mags, as in 31 rounds for the nines, 22 in 40. I wish glock would make big ones for their 45's. Bowie Glock plus a slide meld, night sights, vickers slightly extended mag release and vickers slide release makes a real nice carry piece. Slide in the 31 rounder, and you've got quite a piece of firepower. When i find an early lightly used 21 i plan to get the grip reduction on that also. CDNN does have some Asian Contract high cap 45 mags, but i have not idea if they work. Got to join the GlockForum. They will LOVE me (sic).
 
My Glock 36 hold 6 + 1, I think thats all I need. Maybe I would be out of luck if I got in a shootout with 8 bad guys. 7 rounds is good enough for me. The G36 fits my small hands no need to cut the backtraps. For me I just added night sights, great out of the box. Never leaves home without it.

I also got aftermarket 27 rounds High Capacity Magazine for my Glock 21 with HoMeBoy Nyte Sytes :smile:
80654228.jpg
 
Bought an EMP 9mm for the girlfriend, she loves it but I think I shoot it more than she does. Wonderful gun, but because of the external safety, I wouldn't carry in a pocket holster. Still, several hundred rounds yet and absolutely no failures of any kind.

The differences in size aren't that big in actual numbers, but very noticeable to me in the feeling in hand, and in ease of concealment. It's actually almost too small for me... if I were to get something in that range for myself, I might look at the Kimber Aegis instead. Seems to fill my hand better.

Some of you may laugh at me, but I used to carry a Kel-Tec P11 on bicycle rides and other times when I wanted a smaller gun. I look at it as the cheapest semi you can get that actually works. Not great out of the box, but if you're comfortable doing some trigger work, you can get similar performance to the Kahr at half the price. Mine was utterly reliable.
 

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