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Hey ... WI Road America Guys ...

5 December 2001
Minneapolis, MN
I really want to do some events over at Road America this year, what events are you guys signed up for?? and what is the alrgest nsx event out of these?


NSX 3.0 .... i think i called you last year and still have your # in my phone, hopefully my car will be done by the time some of these events come around this year
Chris F said:
I would expect to see a few NSX's here...

Badger Bimmers (BMWCCA):
Road America, Friday-Sunday, September 23rd-25th

But yeah, last weekend there were 6-ish NSX's.

Yeah, RA was a great time. I'm already thinking about the Badger event.

Chris, it's only today that I put 2 and 2 together and figured out you were the guy with the bad-a$$ integra parked by us!! :rolleyes: I'm such a loser. Next time we're all together, I gotta check out your car.
Chris F said:
last weekend there were 6-ish NSX's.
Yup. Tim, Sean, Tom, Brian, Ryan, and Steven. Did I miss anyone?

That does not include owners with their other car (myself) or former owners Jeff and Steve.

If you want to come to a Midwest event with a lot of NSXs, it's not too late to sign up for the Spring Fling. Click here for details.
I am doing Alpha, as well as Badger in the fall. You already missed 4 events

NASA, Speedseekers, BMW, and Porsche (this weekend)

If you are somewhat experienced, do the Alpha event with me in fall. If it is your first time ever at RA, DO NOT DO ALPHA!!!!!!! (too risky) Do Badger BMW instead.
I'm doing Porsche club this coming Saturday. Should be a Carrera GT there. Nobody listens to me, but these guys run the best events. I heard Windy City only gave three runs a day and didn't use the kink.
gobble said:
I'm doing Porsche club this coming Saturday. Should be a Carrera GT there. Nobody listens to me, but these guys run the best events. I heard Windy City only gave three runs a day and didn't use the kink.

Your right Gobble Windy City uses the chicane instead of the kink. After you take it a few times it's kind of fun you can still reach your top speed going into 12. I will look for you Saturday I'm curious to see the NSX run with the Comptech SC.
Being a newby, I'm glad that the BMW school last week didn't use the kink, or I think we might have seen a few more incidents. I could be wrong, but that's my feeling. I actually enjoyed that chicane. After a few sessions, I found I could really sneak up on some cars coming out of that corner.
Thanks for all the information guys, as soon as i am back on the road, i will be hitting up this topic to see exactly when the next possible event i can sign up for is

The Windy City BMW CCA event provided students with 95 minutes of track time each day (one 35-minute session and two 30-minute sessions), as well as roughly the same amount of time in classroom instruction. I believe that is as much track time as most other groups provide, including Badger Bimmers, PCA, ARCOA, etc.

RP-Motorsports said:
If you are somewhat experienced, do the Alpha event with me in fall. If it is your first time ever at RA, DO NOT DO ALPHA!!!!!!! (too risky)
If it is your first time ever on ANY race track, I recommend that for your first few events, you start with a different track, one with more runoff room and less concrete, such as GingerMan, Putnam Park, etc.
this would be my first time on RA (in which i have heard great things about) I've been @ BIR (brainerd international Raceway) and MAM mid america
Windy City BMW at RA was my first event and I can see why newbie’s are discouraged from doing RA. There is room to build up lots of speed and not a lot of room if you get into trouble. I had a blast but limited my self to the red line in 3rd.
Just looking through my stuff as I get ready for RA tomorrow and noticed that they will be running three (3) run groups.

Group I - Drivers with limited experience or low hp
Group II - Drivers with intermediate experience
Group III - Significant large road course experience (includes instructors)

Since I don't have a 5 or 6 pt harness, I'm limited to group II which is fine with me. Should be plenty of track time.

Group II runs

9:00 - 9:30
10:30 - 11:00
1:30 - 2:00
3:00 - 3:30
4:30 - 5:00 (both group II and III invited if you're still standing)

That adds up to 150 minutes of track time for $230 ($270 if you sign up late). I good deal if I may say so.

Once again (not trying to offend anyone), I highly recommend PCA Milwaukee events. Randy Hallenback is a great guy and does a great job. I've known these guys for 10 years and think they're just about the best.

Thank god someone deleted that other garbage.

In case anyone doesn't believe me:


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RP-Motorsports said:
With all of your talk a few years ago saying that your car is slow, and that you couldn't hang with your buddies, just to let you know, we will be there, and we will have a stopwatch! :wink:

Look forward to meeting you. My M3 buddy and I were at Blackhawk last week and I'll be the first to admit that the CTSC didn't add much on that track. I could pull from him a bit on the straight, but not much. He put a lot into his car over the winter and was faster through the curvies. Its hard to compare a M3 with $5000+ of suspension mods to a somewhat stock NSX. Should be a fun day.
What does the PCA event information mean where it says, "Students with instructors, if assigned one"? Don't they provide an instructor to ride along with EVERY student, unless and until the student is signed off to drive solo?

And I don't see the classroom sessions shown on the schedule. How much classroom instruction time do they provide, along with the track time?

There are different ways of structuring track events. Some, which are basically open lapping days without much instruction, may be fine for experienced drivers, but don't work as well for novices with less or no experience. Others are more instructional oriented, and are great for those with limited experience. You can choose the type of event that works best for your level of experience.

I'm sure the folks who attended the Windy City BMW event will be happy to comment upon the quality of the instruction they received, in their cars as well as in the classroom sessions. (FWIW, my students at this event were not part of our NSX contingent.)

In addition to choosing an event which provides the level of instruction you prefer, you can choose an event which has the format and amount of track time you prefer - for example, a one-day event with less track time (150 minutes, if you drive every session all day long, which many folks don't/can't) for less money ($230-270) like PCA provides, versus a two-day event which provides more track time (190 minutes spread over two days) for more money (around $375, I believe) like the BMW CCA events - whichever best meets your needs and budget.

In a similar vein, some groups put more cars on the track at a time than others, with a greater frequency of cars getting "bunched up in traffic". The number of cars per mile is usually an indication of the likelihood of traffic problems, which tend to increase, particularly if you put 10 or more cars per mile of track. Windy City BMW generally has run groups of around 32 cars each at Road America (8 per mile), and with four passing zones, traffic is rarely a problem. CGI Motorsports, which holds Monday events at GingerMan, does even better, with around 10 cars per run group (6 per mile), and even less traffic. How many does PCA put in a run group? Of course, the offsetting advantage of more cars per run group (just like the advantage of having more run groups) is that they translate directly into lower registration costs. Again, this may be another area where some groups are better than others, and you can pick the one that best meets your needs.

As my experience increased over the years, I became more interested in how much actual track time I got, and less interested in the amount of in-car instruction and classroom time. I found that BMW CCA was a great way to meet my needs. The quality of their instruction and the structure of their event format is as good as you will find anywhere. And, as long as I was going to go to the trouble to prep and pack up the car and drive to a track, I wanted to make sure that I got the most track time I could. BMW CCA's two-day events provided more track time than one-day events. Even better, once I had a fair amount of experience and I was running in the most experienced run group, I was able to participate in the Friday open-track instructor lapping day that precedes most of their events. (Most BMW CCA chapters, although not Windy City, allow their most experienced students to run with the instructors on the Friday sessions.) These lapping days are run under the same structured rules as the Saturday-Sunday schools, and these provide a measure of safety that I have observed as lacking in other groups that hold "open lapping days", where you can drive on the track all day long at your discretion. With unlimited track time on Friday, combined with the run sessions on Saturday and Sunday, you can easily get 300 track miles or more in a weekend, if you're so inclined.

Another group worth considering, particularly for those interested in getting a lot of track time with a limited amount of traffic on the track as well as in-car instructors and classroom sessions for novices, is CGI Motorsports, which runs one-day events at GingerMan roughly every other Monday. Their schedule is set up with three run groups, and you will get as much track time as you can stand in a one-day event.

An advantage of both BMW CCA and CGI Motorsports is that they welcome those running all makes and models of cars. Although I have instructed a few times at PCA events, I never joined because I don't own a Porsche (that's a requirement if you want to be a member). I know that their policy regarding the ability of non-members, and drivers of non-Porsches, to drive in their events varies from chapter to chapter. Some chapters welcome non-members with open arms, usually because they need those entries to fill their events, while others restrict them to PCA members (which means Porsche owners) and some even frown on members driving non-Porsches. I've been treated very nicely by the PCA chapters that let me run, but told by others that they do not allow non-members in their events. So this is one more thing to consider when scouting out track events.

There are lots of other groups and event formats to consider in addition to these, too - other marque clubs and not-for-profit groups (AROC, NASA) as well as professional, for-profit schools (Skip Barber, TrackTime, and some in specific parts of the country like Chin Motorsports in the South, Trackmasters and Car Guys in the Northeast, Driver's Edge in Texas), and Solo and Time Trial and Competition events in addition to the HPDE events like CGI's at GingerMan and BMW CCA's at RA and elsewhere nationwide. Again, different formats, different amounts of track time, different levels of instruction, different levels of risk, etc.

So there are lots of groups you can try, and things to consider in choosing one group's event vs another. If you're not sure, read up and talk with those that have run their events and try one. If you like the way they work their events, keep going; if not, try someone else's events. Find the place you feel comfortable, based on what you're looking for. Once you find a group whose events you enjoy, you probably ought to keep participating in that group's events; that gives you the ability to make friends that you will see at subsequent events (many of us attend the same events each year) as well as for the event organizers to become familiar with your experience level as it improves over time, and place you in the proper run group.

For those just getting started, I think a well-structured school with in-car instructors and classroom instruction at a "safe" track like GingerMan, Putnam Park, MAM, etc is a great introduction to the sport. Once you've done a few events, and as you continue to do more, you can see whether other groups and tracks and formats best meet your needs.
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Yup that car made my day...I got ya at 2.46 not to bad. The GT was around 2.26 that thing is amazing.
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I'm surprised at 2:46 with the traffic. I would have guessed slower. Group 2 was kind of slow this time.

The supercharger clearly made a difference on the front straight and down the straight into turn 5. I found that the car was ready to shift into 5th gear much earlier than before the supercharger. For the most part, I chose not to go into 5th but instead keep it near redline in 4th and coast into the braking zone. With the cold weather, brake problems and traffic, It wasn't a good day to push too hard.

Did you leave right before lunch? You missed an interesting afternoon. We were all called in and yelled at because of some incidents in group 3, including this:


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What a bummer...Your buddy almost tagged the wall also coming out from under the bridge at 13 he had a unreal save.
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You saw it happen?

He claims there was slow traffic in front of him and he stayed in 3rd gear instead of his usual 4th in that section. He accelerated too hard for only being in 3rd gear and the back end snapped loose.
I just found out from Steve that you are running oem brakes! :eek: Charger + Road America = BBK. You did a rookie mistake, putting the $$ at the BHP before safety, tires, and brakes. Get a BBK, ducting, r-compounds (17/17 will do) and put in some seats, harness bar, and 5-pts asap. You will love the BHP much more after the other stuff is taken care of.

What kind of speeds were you seeing down the straights?

Last week, I was getting 135 into 1,5 and 130 into 12 (running the chicane) It was the first time ever with the NSX at RA (ran my turbo teg for 5 yrs prior high 2:40's for lap times) I was running high 2:50's with the chicane with the NSX (street rubber, NA, oem brakes) The chicane adds at least 10 seconds+

R-compounds with this car will give me a LOT of speed. I had brake issues all weekend too. I would only get about 17 min before failure every session! (upgraded fluid, pads, and ducting)

Brakes and tires are on deck for me. (only second event with this car)

Hopefully you have some money left to upgrade the tires and brakes!
I would have invested in big brakes long ago if I could do it and still use the factory wheels. I like the look of the factory seven spoke wheels and don't like much of the aftermarket stuff out there. Right now, I'm running R compound on the ugly 1992 15/16 wheels and run the newer seven spoke wheels on the street. If I went to big brakes, it would mean having to buy two new sets of wheels. There is zero chance that will happen. My car is still primarily a street car. I'm in the market for new 15/16 tires as my R compounds have cords showing on the drivers side after Saturday.

I could almost get to 150 on the front straight and into 5 if I went up to 5th gear and deep into the braking zone (which I only did a couple times). I saw 140 going into 12 and was near redline shortly before the braking zone.

How is your car aligned? I'm running the more conservative 94 settings to ease tire wear, but am thinking a more agressive setting would help on the track.