I have a 2000 NSX with about 78K miles on it. The car is a daily driver and I have owned it since 2004. My problem is that it is difficult to start the car. I get the dreaded click. Sometimes the starter engages on the first try, sometimes it takes 100 times to engage the starter motor. I have replaced the ignition switch three times in the past four months. I have cleaned other switches countless times. The battery is good and using a fully charged jump box makes no difference. I have cleaned and polished all negative leads in the car in the front compartment, at the battery and under the engine and at the throttle body. I have also cleaned and polished the positive battery cables at the battery and at the starter. I have replaced the starter twice and had them rebuilt by a trusted shop twice more. When I get the no start problem, I have bypassed everything and started the engine at the starter with a jump wire. I have the clutch safety switch bypassed as well. A few years ago I replaced the main computer in the car and had the keys programed. I am told that there is no starter relay in the system. I live in Florida and the hot weather makes the problem worse. Does anyone have any ideas as to what else I can do to solve the problem? I thought about bypassing the ignition switch for the starter and wire in a push button modern switch with the key set to run. Does anyone know what wires must be joined to activate the starter using a push button type switch. I am at my wits end here and so tired of crawling under the dash to replace switches every few months. Sorry for the long post. Thanks. Jerry
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Ignition switch
- Thread starter Jerry@Mobile
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I wonder if you have a short/break in the wire somewhere. That would explain the intermittent behavior. I'll check my ETM this evening to see if there is anything else in the starting circuit (like the main relay) that you haven't addressed yet, though I have a 1992 ETM, so it might be slightly different. I think [MENTION=7701]Oldguy[/MENTION] has a 2000. Maybe he can chime in.
Just a thought, Something I learned along time ago. “Don’t replace the crankshaft it it only needs an air filter”.
Go for the simple shit first. Check the contacts inside the switch and then probably go for the main relay. Usually it’s one of those.
Cheers
nigel
Go for the simple shit first. Check the contacts inside the switch and then probably go for the main relay. Usually it’s one of those.
Cheers
nigel
In reading a bit between the lines I gather that the problem is always the starter motor failing to engage? If the engine always starts if the starter motor engages then the problem is limited to a rather small number of devices in the starter circuit. I suspect that if you have gone through 3 ignition switches, the problem is not the ignition switch. If the starter motor engages when you do the jumper to the contact on the starter motor, then the problem is not the starter motor. Since you have by-passed the clutch interlock switch, that pretty much leaves 3 things:
- a problem with the immobilizer system
- a problem with the starter cut relay
- the excruciatingly painful intermittent connection someplace (make sure that your clutch by-pass connection is not intermittent and causing problems).
The immobilizer operates through the starter cut relay, so you can do a 3 in 1 test by bypassing the starter cut relay completely. Removing the relay and putting a jumper between pin 1 and 3 on plug C455 which connects to the starter cut relay will by-pass the starter cut relay eliminating the effect of the interlock switch, the starter cut relay and the immobilizer on the starter motor circuit. If you put the starter cut relay by-pass in place and that completely eliminates the problem, then you don't have an intermittent wiring problem between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid. That leaves you with the alternatives of:
- a problem with the immobilizer
- an intermittent failure of the starter cut relay
- an intermittent problem in the wiring on the starter cut relay / immobilizer circuit.
If you are getting the correct indication on the dash cluster for the immobilizer indicator light (turns on briefly but does not blink), chances are that the immobilizer is working. That leaves you with the starter cut relay as the next likely cause. If the relay doesn't fix the problem, you have some kind of intermittent wiring failure.
- a problem with the immobilizer system
- a problem with the starter cut relay
- the excruciatingly painful intermittent connection someplace (make sure that your clutch by-pass connection is not intermittent and causing problems).
The immobilizer operates through the starter cut relay, so you can do a 3 in 1 test by bypassing the starter cut relay completely. Removing the relay and putting a jumper between pin 1 and 3 on plug C455 which connects to the starter cut relay will by-pass the starter cut relay eliminating the effect of the interlock switch, the starter cut relay and the immobilizer on the starter motor circuit. If you put the starter cut relay by-pass in place and that completely eliminates the problem, then you don't have an intermittent wiring problem between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid. That leaves you with the alternatives of:
- a problem with the immobilizer
- an intermittent failure of the starter cut relay
- an intermittent problem in the wiring on the starter cut relay / immobilizer circuit.
If you are getting the correct indication on the dash cluster for the immobilizer indicator light (turns on briefly but does not blink), chances are that the immobilizer is working. That leaves you with the starter cut relay as the next likely cause. If the relay doesn't fix the problem, you have some kind of intermittent wiring failure.
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Jerry,
Can I ask a question? Do you have or did you ever have an aftermarket security system installed in the car? The reason why I ask is that in my car the installer hacked directly into the main leads on the starter switch harness. After years of use and vibration there was intermittent contact in the main power lead. I had this issue....car would start normally most of the time with some occasional cutout. It got worrisome when the cut out and no start began happening on the road.
I replaced the start switch/harness (it is one piece). Since then no issue! As a footnote, when I looked at the old harness after removal I found the most hacked piece - I was surprised the car ran.
I through this out as I haven't seen any comment on this subject so far.
Good luck,
Kyle
Can I ask a question? Do you have or did you ever have an aftermarket security system installed in the car? The reason why I ask is that in my car the installer hacked directly into the main leads on the starter switch harness. After years of use and vibration there was intermittent contact in the main power lead. I had this issue....car would start normally most of the time with some occasional cutout. It got worrisome when the cut out and no start began happening on the road.
I replaced the start switch/harness (it is one piece). Since then no issue! As a footnote, when I looked at the old harness after removal I found the most hacked piece - I was surprised the car ran.
I through this out as I haven't seen any comment on this subject so far.
Good luck,
Kyle
As I recall the starter switch signal goes through a relay coil and then the security system where it reaches ground, that is on a 92, I’m not sure where the Immobilizer system fits in on a newer model.
It might be worth putting a meter at the relay and checking resistance of the wire to the starter and ground, while wiggling wires in the harness to see if there is any change in resistance.
Many years ago I had a similar problem on a car that I custom built a fuel injection system for, and it had a starter problem similar to yours. Long story short, I had a bad crimp on a solderless connection on the starter (or possibly fuel pump) relay. I found it after pulling everything (manifold, fuel lines, etc) and putting back the carburetor.
Intermittent electrical problems are always the most challenging. Good luck.
It might be worth putting a meter at the relay and checking resistance of the wire to the starter and ground, while wiggling wires in the harness to see if there is any change in resistance.
Many years ago I had a similar problem on a car that I custom built a fuel injection system for, and it had a starter problem similar to yours. Long story short, I had a bad crimp on a solderless connection on the starter (or possibly fuel pump) relay. I found it after pulling everything (manifold, fuel lines, etc) and putting back the carburetor.
Intermittent electrical problems are always the most challenging. Good luck.
Is the starter switch harness the same thing as the Ignition Switch? i cant seem to find anything online for the NSX nammed "starter switch harness". My mother's NSX had a aftermarket alarm installed and then after a few years, removed. She is having this issue currently and at times we found it works everytime if we bump start the car.
I find rebuilt starters to be highly suspect...
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/189416-Denso-starter-motor-solenoid-repair-kit
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/189416-Denso-starter-motor-solenoid-repair-kit
Another thing to check is the connection between the battery clamps and the cables. Also, the thin sheetmetal OEM clamps are easily distorted by overtightening, and can end up where even though the bolt is tight, the clamp is actually not.
My negative side was toast, so I replaced it with an aftermarket one as shown. You should check both sides.
Note- yes I know that clamp is VERY close to the steel holddown. But since it's the ground side it doesn't matter. The other side of the holddown has a cutout providing more clearance around the positive terminal, but if you use an aftermarket clamp, make sure to position it so you have clearance.
Also, note that many cars have the holddown clamp installed wrong, since the illustration in the service manual is wrong. See this post for the wrong and right way.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...lose-to-steel-hold-down?p=2026319#post2026319
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My negative side was toast, so I replaced it with an aftermarket one as shown. You should check both sides.
Note- yes I know that clamp is VERY close to the steel holddown. But since it's the ground side it doesn't matter. The other side of the holddown has a cutout providing more clearance around the positive terminal, but if you use an aftermarket clamp, make sure to position it so you have clearance.
Also, note that many cars have the holddown clamp installed wrong, since the illustration in the service manual is wrong. See this post for the wrong and right way.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...lose-to-steel-hold-down?p=2026319#post2026319
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I have also lived the life of the mauled ignition switch harness. Somebody had installed so many 3M style T taps in my ignition switch harness and then wrapped it with a large wad of electrical tape that it created a blob that prevented the lower valence from fitting properly resulting in fracture of one of the mounting pegs. However, since Jerry is on his 3rd ignition switch I presume that this also means new attached harness so I expect that the switch and harness is no longer the issue.
The immobilizer unit replaces the security system connection in the starter cut relay circuit on the later cars. The starter cut relay gets a permissive connection through the immobilizer circuit and the clutch interlock switch to ground so if there is a problem with the immobilizer or the clutch switch it will stop the starter cut relay from closing preventing the starter motor from engaging.
Just like the clutch interlock switch, the starter cut relay location is a real treat to get to.
This photo is misleading in terms of access because the dashboard has been removed.
I suspect that Honda picked this miserable location to make the relay inaccessible to reduce the possibility of hot wiring the starter circuit in the early cars which did not have the ECU blocked by the immobilizer. When I installed my keyless unit on my 2000 years ago I remember 'seeing' the relay as I was adding the harness for the keyless; but didn't pay much attention to it. I don't know how long the pigtail is on the socket that connects to the relay, so wiggling the socket around to allow you to stick meter test leads into the socket to test for continuity may definitely be a challenge. On a 2000 with the immobilizer unit you would have to do continuity testing with the ignition switch in the run position so that the immobilizer is powered up, otherwise the immobilizer creates a permanent open in the ground connection for the starter cut relay. Unless an owner is 'electrically skilled' I like to recommend continuity testing on powered up systems as a last resort.
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Switch
Thanks to everyone for their replies. I am thinking the problem may reside in the starter cut relay or the Viper alarm. The alarm is wired into the ignition switch harness. I make my connections using a soldering iron and shrink tubing. As for the starter, I use an old school shop that rebuilds in house. They replace the bearings, brushes, diodes etc. I have an extra starter that was rebuilt and I keep it as a spare. They have rebuilt starters and alt. for my old Corvettes and my Chevelle as well as many of my work vehicles. When I bypass the wiring, the starter engages all the time. I have also replaced the negative battery cable with the aftermarket one a forum member builds. I do notice that the voltage on the gauge drops to 12 volts when the key is engaged and the starter does not engage. I can see the starter cut relay on the diagram, does anyone know where it is in the car? Again, thanks for the replies. Jerry
Thanks to everyone for their replies. I am thinking the problem may reside in the starter cut relay or the Viper alarm. The alarm is wired into the ignition switch harness. I make my connections using a soldering iron and shrink tubing. As for the starter, I use an old school shop that rebuilds in house. They replace the bearings, brushes, diodes etc. I have an extra starter that was rebuilt and I keep it as a spare. They have rebuilt starters and alt. for my old Corvettes and my Chevelle as well as many of my work vehicles. When I bypass the wiring, the starter engages all the time. I have also replaced the negative battery cable with the aftermarket one a forum member builds. I do notice that the voltage on the gauge drops to 12 volts when the key is engaged and the starter does not engage. I can see the starter cut relay on the diagram, does anyone know where it is in the car? Again, thanks for the replies. Jerry
If you are not using the immobilizer function in the Viper system then you can ignore the first paragraph below.
In your first post you did not mention the Viper system. If the Viper system has an immobilizer function that is wired into the starter motor circuit then that would be my first choice as to start looking for problems. Did you replace the NSX key immobilizer system with the Viper immobilizer system or are the two running in series? My experience with aftermarket security systems has not been a happy one. All of mine ended up behaving erratically. Since your 2000 NSX has an electronic immobilizer function which disables the ECU I personally would be disinclined to disconnect or by-pass the immobilizer function in the Viper. Normally aftermarket security systems have an external relay which provides the starter cut function. These relays are typically wired using the normally closed relay contacts so that if the signal from the security system fails or the relay coil fails the relay contact remains closed so that you can still start the car. If you have a dedicated relay for that function check that relay to see if it has failed. If that function is using the existing NSX starter cut relay, that relay operates in reverse to typical aftermarket systems. It uses a normally open contact so if your Viper is giving flakey outputs it can leave you with a no start condition.
The location of the starter cut relay is shown in that photo that I attached in post #11 . However, that photo is misleading because the dash has been removed. In order for you to get eyes on the starter cut relay you will have to remove the cover under the glove box and also remove the glove box. I don't think you have to remove the center console; but, it has been 10 years since I was last digging around under there. With that stuff removed you should be able to see the relay; but, it is going to be a hassle to get your hands up in there to get at the relay. That is why I suggest starting with checking your Viper system if you are using the Viper immobilizer.
Just to be clear - what is the dreaded click? When you switch the ignition key to the run position before you switch to the start position do you hear the fuel pump going through the prime cycle? If you do, then the key immobilizer function is working because the ECU is cycling the pump. If the pump does not prime, then you have some other problems than just the starter circuit.
If you switch to from run to start on the ignition switch do you get a click? If so, I am not sure what that would be. Perhaps listen to hear if you can determine where that click is coming from.
That would be normal. The no-load voltage of the battery is around 12.2 volts when the alternator is not running so you should expect to read a nudge over 12 volts when you switch the key to the run position. Only after the engine has started and the alternator starts doing its thing does the voltage rise to around 14.4 - 14.6 volts.
Switch
Thank you for the reply. I did not install the Viper system. I know there is a standard relay within the alarm wiring. I have an extra one on hand, so a swap is easy. The click I hear sounds more like a quiet tick that sounds like it is from behind the seats. If the relay swap fails to work, I will install a new ignition switch and completely bypass the alarm. I have a new switch on my workbench. I will let you know what I find out. Jerry
Thank you for the reply. I did not install the Viper system. I know there is a standard relay within the alarm wiring. I have an extra one on hand, so a swap is easy. The click I hear sounds more like a quiet tick that sounds like it is from behind the seats. If the relay swap fails to work, I will install a new ignition switch and completely bypass the alarm. I have a new switch on my workbench. I will let you know what I find out. Jerry
Hello,
yes I mean the switch......it does have a harness attached to it, hence my description. In the future I will try to use the factory manual verbage for less confusion! Kyle
yes I mean the switch......it does have a harness attached to it, hence my description. In the future I will try to use the factory manual verbage for less confusion! Kyle
Update
I installed a new ignition switch. Instead of wiring the alarm into the switch harness as done in the past, I bypassed the alarm. Since my last post, the car has started each and every time. That said, I would like to put a new alarm in the car. I would like remote door and trunk unlock capabilities and perhaps key fob or phone notification if the alarm is activated. I can't use remote start as the car is a manual shift. Any recommendations for an alarm system. Thanks. Jerry
I installed a new ignition switch. Instead of wiring the alarm into the switch harness as done in the past, I bypassed the alarm. Since my last post, the car has started each and every time. That said, I would like to put a new alarm in the car. I would like remote door and trunk unlock capabilities and perhaps key fob or phone notification if the alarm is activated. I can't use remote start as the car is a manual shift. Any recommendations for an alarm system. Thanks. Jerry
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