I'm buying Kumho.... talk me out of it?

M

mikec

Experienced Member
Joined
23 November 2001
Messages
730
Location
Lancaster, PA USA
Rather than replace just the rear RE010 tires at over $400, I think i'll try Kumho ecsta 712's for around $380 for 4. When using the search and FAQ, the sizes I see most often are:

Front: 225/40-16
Rear: 255/40-17

What I'm looking for is a quiet comfortable and long wearing tire.

I don't track my car or run it hard on the street. I know that handeling limits will be decreased, but to what amount I'm not sure and may just have to experience it for myself. What I want to avoid is driving off with the Kumho's and saying "OMG... I made a huge mistake....... these things are HORRIBLE.

Here are some questions:

1. Should those sizes be OK with the TCS and not cause issues?
2. Will my indicated speed be off much?
3. Should I be looking at another tire such as the Falken Ziex 512?
4. Should I forget the whole thing and keep OEM tires?

I'm also going to get the car aligned next week and take the rear down to 3 degrees of toe-in.

5. Should I wait to have it aligned with the new tires, or doesn't it matter if I align it now. I thought it may be helpful for the alignment tech to see how the old tires are wearing.

Thanks and best wishes for the new year.

ps. I need a long wearing tire.. i'm gonna put lots of miles on this baby this year.
 
tires

You may want to check into Falken Beta 451's. Not sure if they make 16" though. I've been imprssed with ride and tread wear on 17's&18's.
 
check out reviews at tirerack.com

Check out the reviews at www.tirerack.com on the Kumhos and other tires. Most reviews are negative on this Kumho Ecsta 712 tire. Good treadwear, but if you drive the car in the rain at all, then you might want avoid this tire. The Kumho 712 tread pattern does a less than desireable job of moving water and can feel like you are losing control in the wet. I would suggest looking for something other than the Falken 451 as well. I currently have the Falken 451 in 17" on one of my other cars and after a while they tend make a lot of noise and the tread tends to start cupping (yes, my alignment is correct). They have a nice tread pattern, but are not very well made The Yoko AVS ES100 is a good, long wearing tire. I have that tire on another one of my cars and its good. Only complaint on that tire is the the turn in response is a little soft. If you are willing to give up some steering response for longer treadwear, then this is a good tire. I'm not sure if you can get the AVS ES100 in NSX sizes, though. I couldn't find them on tirerack.com. You might want to look at the Yoko AVS Sport for an NSX anyway. My NSX currently has Dunlop SP 9000 on it (16/17). This tire is also long wearing and may be a good option too. Tirerack has a closeout price on the fronts of $108 and regular price on rears of $172. This is a good tire, but like all non-OEM tires, it doesn't have the steering response of OEM. The steering response with these tires feels a little too loose. Once these Dunlops wear out, I'm going back to OEM tires. Sure, OEM tires don't last as long, but they make the car steer like it was designed to steer.

For long treadlife, you probably don't want OEM tires. Given that requirement, you might be best off with other Bridgestone models, Michelin Pilot Sport, Dunlop SP 9000, Michelin Pilot Sport A/S. If you find Yoko AVS ES100 or AVS Sport, then that is a good option too.

I have 225/40/16 and 255/40/17 on my car and there are no issues (TCS, etc). These sizes work fine as replacement sizes for the the OEM.

As far as alignment, its your call. I always have an alignment done after putting on new tires. You can take your old tires to the align shop and show them the wear. If you don't want to deal with hauling the old tires, then do the alignment first and get the new tires put on. You call.
 
Kumho 712

I am new to my NSX this year. My '93 came with a set of Kumho 712s on it, 215/40-17, 265/40-17. I liked to tire OK. They are a bit scary in the rain, like Mikeylex said, but they handle pretty well in the dry. I liked them at the track because the stiff side walls made for predictable break away on my lowered car with agressive alignment. At 12K the rears wear dead and the fronts were showing the wear bars on the inside edge. I would guess if you are running less toe and camber these will run a very long time.

As the rainy season up here in Portland approached I decided to replace these with Yokohama AVS ES-100s, 215/40-17, 255/40-17. These tires are great in the rain, but they are soft on turn in when cornering in the dry. I noticed a loss in crispness when compared to the Kumhos, I can only imagine how bad they feel compare to the OEM tires. They are quieter than the Kumhos, but more suseptable to road input, like truck grooves on the freeway. A very comfortable tire for the winter but I am looking forward to getting a set SO3s for the summer and track to feel what the car was meant to corner like!

My $.03...Dave
 
I get more confused with each post I read :)

I was sold on the Yoko ES100's as a good tire for the money. Like the Kumho's. Some people love em, and some hate em. Some say they have great grip and steering feel, others say they are soft and sloppy.

I didn't really want to go to S03's. I would probably be just as well of sticking with the OEM RE010's.

time to get out the Ouija board.
 
Re: Re: tires

matteni said:
I know Mark J. ran these last year at OTC and was very happy with the performance, wear, and lap times vs OEM.

You may want to check them out:

http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/index_browse_part.cfm?focus=1198
Click to expand...

I bought a set of these from Mark and am very happy with them. They grip like mad on the track!

Wear is impressive so far, they seem to be as good or better than Toyo Proxes I last ran.

Can't beat his prices either.
I'm running stock 16/17 wheels and have 255/40-17 rear and 225/45-16 up front.
 
Mike:

I have the Yoko AVS ES100s in 17/18 on my 95, and I like them a lot, especially when I consider the price. They do tramline a bit on the freeway, but not unbearably. I don't feel the softness on turns like others have noticed. I did note today that after my car sat for about 12 days in a cold garage, there seemed to be a lot of wobble before they were warmed up...I'm assuming a flat spot develops with the softer compound that rounds out when warmed up.

Read the reviews on tirerack.com, then make a decision. You can always change later.

Good luck!

Todd
 
For the purpose you want them for, you will most likely be very happy with them. Although in the same price range, I would probably spenda tad more and get the ES100's just based on the reviews I have read.
 
ES 100

mikec,
I sure didn't mean to talk you out of the tires. I will keep using mine for the wet season with a big smile. I agree with KGP that it sounds like a good tire for you and for general driving I am much happier with the ES 100s over the Kumho 712s if for no other reason than the grip in the rain. They seem like they will wear about the same as the Kumhos, after 3K miles.

If you don't push the car, you will never notice the difference in 'crispness' on turn in on corners. My guess is if you are interested in making your alignment less agressive and willing to accept that comprimise, you will be happy with the perfomance of these tires. They are quiet and comfortable on the highway!

Dave
 
What kind of grip in the rain are you talking about? Just curious because this past 4 weeks we have had some of the worst rain and flooding in Hawaii in many years and at first I was very worried about the Kumho Supra 712s that I use on my NSX stock rims for daily driving, but it actually held up much better than I thought they would. With the wide tires I thought I would hydroplane but I never did once. I never had the guts to take the corners fast either, so that may be another reasony why they held up fine for me. At least for me during 50-60 MPH freeway driving it never let me down. If you buy these tires and use them as if you are driving an Accord I think you will have no problems. If you use these tires and drive the NSX like how it supposed to be driven I think you will be dissappointed. When I switch to my aftermarket rims with Pirelli P Zero Nero tires (I really wanted the SO3) I can feel an dramatic difference in handling compared to the Kumhos, but for everyday normal driving it does its job well I think.

I was thinking of going with the ES100 the next time around, but I have gotten owners emailing me saying they would try something else as they were not satisfied. I guess it really depends on how you are using the tire and what you actually expect from it.

Mike, I'm not sure about your quick tire wear and alignment or driving style, but I have at least 2000 miles on the Kumhos and they still look at least 90% new. I can tell they are not brand new, but I would say on my car with my driving style I'm thinking I'll get over 10K miles on the rear easy. Or at least I hope.
 
ChrisK said:
I have at least 2000 miles on the Kumhos and they still look at least 90% new. I can tell they are not brand new, but I would say on my car with my driving style I'm thinking I'll get over 10K miles on the rear easy.
Click to expand...
Ditto. Mine look like new with 2.5K miles on the rears (no track miles on them).
 
i have 712 on my BMW. although these tires do last forever. they are very hard riding. No complaint on wear and grip. just that the ride is rather hard.
 
Yoko

Mike,
The Yoko ES100 is a good tire if you don't push your car hard in turns. It is long lasting, quiet and a good value for the performance you get. The complaint some people have is the initial turn in response - when you first pull the wheel to one side or the other, the response is not super crisp like the stock tires (most people don't notice it). If you are ok with that, then the ES100 would be a good choice. As far as Kumho - there are different models - its just the 712 model that I've heard complaints about. I think the Kumho MX gets better reviews.

Your post said "Kumho - talk me out of it" It sounds like you want a tire other than Kumho anyway, so maybe the Yoko ES100 is the right tire for you.
 
Right now, it is a decision between the Yoko ES100, and the S03.

I don't mind spending the extra money for the Bridgestones if they will produce better handeling I can feel at normal road speeds.
 
mikec said:
Right now, it is a decision between the Yoko ES100, and the S03.

I don't mind spending the extra money for the Bridgestones if they will produce better handeling I can feel at normal road speeds.
Click to expand...

Mike,

The SO3's will give you a noticeable handling difference, but they are softer. In my opinion, the SO3 is the best street tire made. Not 10/10ths like the OEM Yokos or B'stones, but very close. Excellent in the rain, fabulous in the dry. I probably got close to 10K out of my rears with some tracking. Not really sure about the fronts as they are still "OK". Will cost more per mile than the ES100, but will give you most of what this car is about. Just look out for the sizing differential, as the 16" is only available in 225's, which will make TireRack's "perfect replacement size" alarm go off and they have to be sweet talked (or threatened) to send them to you. I still use 245 in the rears but others have switched to 255 to keep front/rear ratios closer. I want the better gearing from the smaller tire:D
 
Although I use the Bridgestones myself (as intermediate and rain tire on the track) I won't say they are the 1st choice when your major concern is treadlife. OTOH: At "normal road speed" (everybody may understand something different here) in dry and most of the wet situations you won't come to the limits of this tire.

For longer treadlife you may look at the Michelin MXX or Pilot Sport alternatives - the MXX were the longest lasting tires during my street legal life.
 
Are you keeping track of all these posts? I'm trying to figure out if there's more votes for or against :-D

I went from the stock Yoke A022HO's to the Ecsta 712's and went through the same thoughts you're going through.

At one point I just pulled the trigger not being totally sure if they were the 100% right decision.

To ease my quandry and to close the deal on the spot a shop in SoCal price matched (within a few bucks) tire rack and said they'd give me 30 days to try them....nothing to lose.

They're my new standard for tires and I'm on my second set.
One of the guys here actually used them out at Streets of Willow and did MUCH better than me because the track temp was so high my Yokes were melting and his were fine.

If you can find a deal like mine, go for it.

Good luck, these are hard decisions.

- although...if THIS is the hardest decisions you have to make today....life must be pretty good for you.

Dave
 
Kumho MX?

NSXDreamer2,
What set up do you have with the Kumho MX's, wheels, tire sizes? Have you tracked them? The guys at Tire Rack were talking that tire up but I had kind of dismissed it in favor of S03's for this coming summer and track season. Nice to hear from somone who has driven them on an NSX!

Dave
 
I'll give my thoughts on the ES100's, and other tires I've been thru. Although not on the NSX(BMW 3series).
1st set: Pirelli P7000- Great handling tire and very quite. 18k miles (even wear)
2nd set: Dunlop SP5000- Nice tire with decent tread life- 25k miles (even wear)
3rd set: Yoko ES100- Squishy feeling. Turn in was like a delayed reaction, and there was a disconnected feeling with the road. These were on special for 100 per tire, versus all the others that cost 175 at the time. Price swayed me. 18k miles (toasted the inside rear 1" and they started cupping like a MOFO)
4th set: Michelin Sport Pilots- OMG, my great handling car is back! I never realized what POS the ES100 tires were!!! Day and night difference. Even the wife commented about how the ES100's made the car feel numb and floaty. And she doesn't drive aggresive at all. This, with only a few miles on the tires.

Would I buy ES100's for any car? Only if it was a commuter car like a econo box, and then, they would have to be very inexpensive compared to other tires I was considering. Yes, I did seem to think the ES100's were OK when I had them. Until, I changed to the Michelins. Back to back comparing the tires has made me not skimp and go with a cheaper tire anymore. Even on "normal" cars. Turning back the clock, I should have stuck with the SP5000. It was a good lesson for me.

Sincerely,
John ;)
 
kuhmo mx

i chose the kuhmo mx vs the 712 as the price point for all four tires was in the middle between tires like 712/ES 100 and SO3. the fronts 215/40/17 are only $100 at tirerack right now and i've been pretty happy with them. i use my nsx as my daily and don't track the car

good luck:D
 
I have 12000+ miles on the 712's and the rears are ready but the fronts have a long way to go, I have tracked them and while they are not the stickiest tires they were very readable with plenty of warning at the limit. I cannot speak to the wet driving issues. My NSX is H20 intollerant, so I keep her in when it is wet. I will be replacing the 712's to the MX this spring as I intend to use these as my daily driving tires and wet tires on the track, I have the Victor Racers on the OEM rims for dry.

As with any tire choice you make there will be compromises, the Kuhmo's offers a very good value as I feel the 712's are good for about 20000 on the front and 12-14000 for the rears.

Best of luck with your choice.

Dave
 

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