I'm screwed... possible major engine damage?

Arshad

Arshad

Legendary Member
Joined
14 August 2003
Messages
2,401
Location
Toronto, Canada
Short Version:

- 91 NSX, CTSC low boost
- Car driven hard at autoslalom by an instructor
- At the end of the day, oil light starts flashing
- Checked oil, bone dry on the dipstick
- Temporarily added 1.5 litres of oil (not the right weight - but was advised this was fine temporarily)
- Started driving home on the highway, noticed oil pressure lower than normal
- After a while, heard very loud clanking mechanical sound from engine, pulled over and turned off car
- Spun bearing?

Long Version:

So yesterday I went to a charity autoslalom event. Basically exotic car owners were running their cars on a slalom giving rides to the public to raise money for neuroblastoma (a type of brain cancer that largely affects children).

I arrived late to the event as I had just come back from out of town in the NSX (about 1000 km's round trip) and wasn't allowed to run the course because I didn't know the layout. The head instructor said that if I wanted to volunteer my car, he would take people out on it so I went ahead with that.

He ran it hard for maybe 8-9 runs, and then advised me that he thought my oil might be low because he was hearing a tapping indicative of low oil. My oil was due for a change (6000 km's), and I had actually meant to change it prior to my trip but wasn't able to get an appointment.

When I went to go start the car, noticed that the oil light was flashing. Checked oil on the dipstick and it was completely dry. One of the other guys had oil for his Porsche which was the wrong weight, but I was advised by some other people there including the head instructor that it was fine to put this in temporarily and then get the oil changed properly as soon as possible. So we put in 1.5 litres of oil, and it was showing up fine on the dipstick so I decided to drive it home.

Now, while the car had been running the slalom the exhaust seemed to have shifted and was touching the rear valence and was making a rattling sound. So when I started to drive back, I could hear the rattling noise coming from the back but just ignored it thinking I would adjust the hanger afterwards.

I got on the highway and after a bit of driving noticed that the oil pressure was showing lower than normal. All this while, my windows were rolled down and I could faintly hear the rattling from the back. Then I noticed that the rattling seemed to be louder but I figured it was just the exhaust. Ignored it for a bit, but then when I rolled up my window I heard loud mechanical clanking noises coming from the engine. I immediately pulled over and turned off the car, but I have no idea how long I had been driving with that clanking in the engine.

I was advised that I had probably lost all my oil and spun a bearing. At this point I'm assuming the worst. I had it towed to the dealership near my house but I'm going to have it taken to another dealership where they have more competent NSX techs. I'll post up more once the dealership has had a chance to examine the engine. I suppose if there's sufficient damage in this type of situation, the entire engine will have to be replaced?
 
Ah man Arshad.

I know it is not what you wanted to hear, BUT STROKE THAT SUCKER OUT!

Sounds like you're going to be shopping for a new engine.
 
Anyone reading this (including me) should take this as an important lesson - since the NSX doesn't consume oil like many other cars (my racecar, my old 996TT, etc.) we tend to assume there is always 100% of the required oil in the car. It is important to check your oil regularly!!!

What oil does:
1) Cools engine!!!!!!
2) Lubricates parts

Problem is we don't assume #1, so when Arshad topped up his low oil his car was already WAY WAY too hot. The only thing that MAY have saved him was to top up the oil and leave the car off for HOURS to let it cool and then drive it.

Autoslalom, the track, etc. is NOT hard on our cars, but a long drive with low oil heats the components up and then things seize and break because the temperature of the engine is WAY out of spec AND the oil itself can't work since its WAY out of spec - it just boils off the components its supposed to lubricate.

My Racecar has an oil cooler that is half the size of the radiator on it - when I asked Fiorano (the car builder) "why" I was giving up so much space on the rad for the oil cooler (oil rad) he told me if I keep the oil cool the coolant won't have to do much.

Please everyone, go check you oil - NOW!!!

Sorry Arshad! That SUCKS!
 
If there's no top end damage, and you are rebuilding the bottom end it won't be crazy money to fix, it won't be cheap because it's an NSX, but not game over.

It's an opportunity to get some low compression pistons and build it out for your supercharger. Or just refresh the engine and have a reliable motor for another 20 years. I'd probably prep it for FI while I was at it. That's me.

Do you know where the oil leak was or is it burning really oil really badly?
 
No No No No No

You guys are all assuming the worst!

The outcome Im hoping for is that Arshad exits this process with a 3.8L Turbo.

Dont be telling him about spending money on "refreshing" the engine. Dont be pointing him to used engines.

Enough of that madness. The only way this event is ends poorly is if Arshad spends a whole bunch of money for no gain! Spending money on a refresh! Crazy! Stock engine. Nuts!

What he needs is a big mother bad ass stroked Turbo.
 
how did the oil run dry? was there a leak? was it burning oil thru the rings? There would have been tell tale signs for the depletion of oil. Oil puddle or excessive black smoke.
 
The same thing happened to me, it was spun bearings and it destroyed 2 of the pistons. Smell the oil, when you spin a bearing, it makes the oil smell really bad.

Rob
 
Red said:
Anyone reading this (including me) should take this as an important lesson - since the NSX doesn't consume oil like many other cars (my racecar, my old 996TT, etc.) we tend to assume there is always 100% of the required oil in the car. It is important to check your oil regularly!!!

What oil does:
1) Cools engine!!!!!!
2) Lubricates parts

Problem is we don't assume #1, so when Arshad topped up his low oil his car was already WAY WAY too hot. The only thing that MAY have saved him was to top up the oil and leave the car off for HOURS to let it cool and then drive it.

Autoslalom, the track, etc. is NOT hard on our cars, but a long drive with low oil heats the components up and then things seize and break because the temperature of the engine is WAY out of spec AND the oil itself can't work since its WAY out of spec - it just boils off the components its supposed to lubricate.

My Racecar has an oil cooler that is half the size of the radiator on it - when I asked Fiorano (the car builder) "why" I was giving up so much space on the rad for the oil cooler (oil rad) he told me if I keep the oil cool the coolant won't have to do much.

Please everyone, go check you oil - NOW!!!

Sorry Arshad! That SUCKS!
Click to expand...

So you believe that the car's engine was damaged during the 1000 km drive and not during the runs? Sounds correct since the instructor heard the knocking while driving the car. The damage was already there. Which means that the engine should have been topped of and allowed to cool down.

But here's a question. What was the engine temperature? Did it ever show that it was running hot?
 
Arshad,
Hope it isn't too bad but if you are going to rebuild it, just do it. Ask Bram how it was to ride 600 RWHP NSX. Much faster than the Noble that you rode.
Tim
 
Thanks for the advice guys. To answer the questions above:

1) No apparent signs of oil problem leading up to this. On the 1000 km drive, the engine temps were normal, no black smoke, no smell, no dripping after I parked etc. It was all also normal on the way to the event. I'm fairly positive it was the fact that the car was being driven hard at the event that started this whole thing since the oil light first showed up there. It's of course very possible (and likely) that I was already running somewhat low on oil leading up to this since I was due for a change

2) There was no knocking when it was initially being driven on the course (I went out with him the first couple of times). It was only after the final run that he made that comment.

3) The engine temperature was normal, the engine sounded fine, the oil light went off, etc after I had put some oil into the car and started driving home. The only issue was the rattling noise from the exhaust. On the highway was where I first noticed the lower than normal oil pressure reading. In hindsight, that's when I should have pulled over.

As far as putting on a turbo etc let me first figure out what's going on you bastards ;-) Truth is I'd be perfectly happy with just getting it back on the road ... I just don't want this to turn into one of those things where it's in the shop all summer long.
 
So how much are you willing to spend on your ride before you throw in the towel? Do you have a limit where enough is enough and you just part it out and buy another ride (Possibly another NSX)?
 
nastinupe1 said:
So how much are you willing to spend on your ride before you throw in the towel? Do you have a limit where enough is enough and you just part it out and buy another ride (Possibly another NSX)?
Click to expand...

It won't cost that much. He can buy another engine for a few grand.
 
Arshad said:
Short Version:

- 91 NSX, CTSC low boost
- Car driven hard at autoslalom by an instructor
- At the end of the day, oil light starts flashing
- Checked oil, bone dry on the dipstick
- Temporarily added 1.5 litres of oil (not the right weight - but was advised this was fine temporarily)
- Started driving home on the highway, noticed oil pressure lower than normal
- After a while, heard very loud clanking mechanical sound from engine, pulled over and turned off car
- Spun bearing?

Long Version:

So yesterday I went to a charity autoslalom event. Basically exotic car owners were running their cars on a slalom giving rides to the public to raise money for neuroblastoma (a type of brain cancer that largely affects children).

I arrived late to the event as I had just come back from out of town in the NSX (about 1000 km's round trip) and wasn't allowed to run the course because I didn't know the layout. The head instructor said that if I wanted to volunteer my car, he would take people out on it so I went ahead with that.

He ran it hard for maybe 8-9 runs, and then advised me that he thought my oil might be low because he was hearing a tapping indicative of low oil. My oil was due for a change (6000 km's), and I had actually meant to change it prior to my trip but wasn't able to get an appointment.

When I went to go start the car, noticed that the oil light was flashing. Checked oil on the dipstick and it was completely dry. One of the other guys had oil for his Porsche which was the wrong weight, but I was advised by some other people there including the head instructor that it was fine to put this in temporarily and then get the oil changed properly as soon as possible. So we put in 1.5 litres of oil, and it was showing up fine on the dipstick so I decided to drive it home.

Now, while the car had been running the slalom the exhaust seemed to have shifted and was touching the rear valence and was making a rattling sound. So when I started to drive back, I could hear the rattling noise coming from the back but just ignored it thinking I would adjust the hanger afterwards.

I got on the highway and after a bit of driving noticed that the oil pressure was showing lower than normal. All this while, my windows were rolled down and I could faintly hear the rattling from the back. Then I noticed that the rattling seemed to be louder but I figured it was just the exhaust. Ignored it for a bit, but then when I rolled up my window I heard loud mechanical clanking noises coming from the engine. I immediately pulled over and turned off the car, but I have no idea how long I had been driving with that clanking in the engine.

I was advised that I had probably lost all my oil and spun a bearing. At this point I'm assuming the worst. I had it towed to the dealership near my house but I'm going to have it taken to another dealership where they have more competent NSX techs. I'll post up more once the dealership has had a chance to examine the engine. I suppose if there's sufficient damage in this type of situation, the entire engine will have to be replaced?
Click to expand...

If you are lucky enough to discover you have run dry on engine oil and not already suffered major engine failure/damage you should automatically think it over a) when was your NSX last serviced???? b) If the service interval was within timescale and yet you have lost complete quota of engine oil you almost certainly have a SERIOUS PROBLEM somewhere. Then simply topping up your oil and driving off home is playing Russian Roulette and Iam really suprised any track qualified instructors or even spectators advised you to do this. You pay for a pick up in your insurance premium for this reason so anybody reading this TAKE A LESSON from this story and hitch a ride home or to your regular service station.
 
Sounds like a spun bearing due to the combination of low oil level and some hard cornering/driving. But the main issue is/was oil level.

You are probably looking at a crank(some builders would turn the crank.. some wouldn't), possibly a couple rods, and a fresh rebuild.. While you are in there, and you are FI, do some low compression pistons, Cometic headgaskets, ARP headstuds and rod bolts. If you have any questions along the way, PM me.
 
Sorry to hear of your misfortune Arshad.

1st matter of business...sue the instructor :wink:

2nd matter...Lovefab Turbo, nothing less.
 
nastinupe1 said:
As in $3000? I was thinking closer to $5000 installed. I figured that it was more expensive to build and repair NSX engines.
Click to expand...

I would like to know where you get a GOOD NSX engine for $3000? I will buy as many as you have:):).

You will need to start in about the $5K range, add $1K for shipping, add $2K for install. That is realistic for a good stock used engine, installed properly and running right.

Arshad,

It will be very important that you or someone knowledgable review the internals carefully. Starving for oil (which is no doubt what caused this) means you really need to check the top end as well. Cams can take a beating when run dry. Since your oil pressure was low and the engine was still in operation, careful evaluation is required.

You will be in the position to either rebuild or replace. You need to make the best $$$ decision. Let me know if have any questions.

Good Luck,
Regards,
LarryB
 
Arshad said:
1) No apparent signs of oil problem leading up to this. On the 1000 km drive, the engine temps were normal, no black smoke, no smell, no dripping after I parked etc. It was all also normal on the way to the event.
Click to expand...
Define "normal". Heck, don't bother. Answer a different question: Prior to this incident, when was the last time you checked the oil level, and was it full? Did you check it at the start of the autocross? Did you check it at some point on your 1000 km drive, and when? Or was it before you did your 1000 km drive, and if so, how many km/miles prior?
 
Thanks Larry + Momin, I will definitely come back with questions once the tech has evaluated the engine.

Ken: Yeah I was very negligent in this department. I'm not exactly sure when I checked the oil level, but it was probably about 1000 km's prior to the drive. At the time, the level was fine. I had planned on getting it changed prior to my trip but wasn't able to book an appt in time. At the very least I should have checked it before the autocross -- in fact I was specifically told that I should but I was running late and in a rush to get there and forgot to do it.

So was the oil level low before taking it on? My guess is probably yes. At the same time, when I say normal, I was simply responding to the person asking the question, ie there wasn't any black smoke, burning oil, apparent leaks/drips, etc. Oil pressure was also fine. It obviously doesn't mean there wasn't a problem, but it was probably not in a catastrophic state going into the event. Trust me, I'm kicking myself because it's going to be a very expensive lesson.
 
Update

Rob, the guy who's looking at my car, took the oil pan out last night and started to examine the damage. As suspected it was a spun bearing (on #2 rod), and there were lots of metal pieces in the oil pan. He has yet to pull all of the other rods out to make sure they're not damaged, but they all were seated firmly and seemed ok at first glance. Once he pulled out the bottom of the rod, you could also see scoring on the crank. He's not sure if that can be machined/polished or whether it needs to be replaced. He pulled the bottom of the rod beside it, and showed me that the crank and rod were fine there.

At this point I'm a little more hopeful, but we won't know for sure until he takes apart the top and checks to see if any metal pieces got sucked up and damaged anything there.

Sorry for the crappy quality of these pics... they're from my camera phone:

You can see pieces of the metal on the bottom left:

IMG_0427.jpg


Here's a big piece of the shredded bearing:

IMG_0426.jpg


You can see the scoring on the crank where he pulled the bottom of the #2 rod out:

IMG_0429.jpg


The top is #2, you can see scoring on the bottom of the rod itself. The bottom piece is from the rod beside it with the bearing intact, showing no damage.

IMG_0431.jpg
 
Ouch!! Sorry to hear about your car..........speak to Dave Crawford as he has an extra engine he was (and still may) going to use to build a turbo - perhaps if he's not doing that project he can sell it to you.

In a car if you blow the rod bearing would you also not bow the crankshaft? I did that to a bike and the crank needed replacing as well, but for me I just called Yamaha and they gave me everthing (nice sponsor), so maybe you can call Honda and see if they can do the same for you:rolleyes: . Hope you get it fixed soon.
 

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