Improving steering response.

[RacingHeart]

I had the chance to drive a '06 Mazda Miata (Mx-5/Roadster) yesterday and it was a pure joyride on the small and curvy roads I tried it on.
I almost went home and put my NSX up for sale right away - it was that fun.:tongue:

The thing i loved the most about the car was the responsiveness of the steering - you barely had to touch the steering wheel to make it go exactly where you wanted it. In comparision the NSX feels like a truck.:frown:

So, what can one do to improve the responsiveness and feel of the steering on the NSX to get it as chrisp as the Miata?. I have an early model = no servo.

 

[drew]

Uhh, the Miata is one of the most impressive cars on the road: cheap, extremely reliable, well built and it can HANDLE. It is one of the best handling cars out of the box. Easy to park, cheap to maintain and a fanatical user base.

The reason the NSX feels like a truck is because IT IS compared to the Miata. You can do the same with the NSX: reduce the mass by about 600 pounds, reduce the wheel base and increase the steering ratio...and you will have a Miata.

The Miata is one impressive car.... It is difficult for guys to drive one on the street in Los Angeles unless they want to be constantly harassed/chased/propositioned by other guys wanting a phone number.

Drew

 

[nsxotic911]

In comparision the NSX feels like a truck.:frown:

Get ready, you're going to get flamed by the track guys.. :tongue:
I agree that the Miata/S2000 is very nimble, very awesome.

The NSX however, with mid-engine config & more power can go through turns & twistys must faster than those two. However, it does take good tires & reasonable skills to take maximum advantage of the twistys.
Keep in mind that more fun is subjective. A AWD Porsche 911 through the twistys is lots of 'fun' even though it's 'heavy.'

Having driven all three, Miata/S2k, NSX, 911 through twistys, all are a blast, with different chracteristics. Why don't you just get a Miata and have both? Miata's are cheap..

 

[Ponyboy]

Drove an SM (Spec Miata) in my first race and got a 2nd in class podium. Loved the car, fun to drive, but man, having no speed on the straights except the momentum you worked for in the corner...kinda sucks. Granted, the road car and SM are different animals and "fun" isn't necessarily based on acceleration alone.

I'd say if you find one you like, buy it! Who cares what anyone else thinks.

BTW, the steering rack bushings and the NSX-R chassis bars should go along way with tightening the steering up.

 

[MashimaroNSX]

+1 for the NSX-R chassis bars, they improve the response significantly

 

[mickeylex]

First question: What tires are you using? The OEM tires make the NSX handle and respond very very well. If you are using budget peformance tires, then yes, the NSX steering response will be numb.

You may want to try updated steering bushings from SOS. If your NSX is older, chances are new bushings will help significantly.

 

[nis350]

I have an early model Miata for a long time. It is a fun little car to drive. It gets 32 MPG and all it needs is oil. It handles well and the shift action is better than the NSX, IMO.

 

[jond]

I made my 40+ year old mustang handle probably better then said miata. It's not that hard.
1. Make sure you're running expensive summer-only tires.
2. Dial a little tow-out on the front.
3. New shocks, springs, swaybar

I remember last year when I was looking for a NSX, I was amazed how many owners had cheap tires, 15 year old shocks, etc and the car handled poor.

 

[goldNSX]

what can one do to improve the responsiveness and feel of the steering on the NSX to get it as chrisp as the Miata?[/B]

Yes, I know the steering response of the S2000 I own and it's a completely different feeling. Sorry to say that you can change nearly everything on the NSX but it will never handle like a S2000. I did quite a few things with my NSX as far as handling is concerned but the cars remain very, very different from each other.

The NSX however, with mid-engine config & more power can go through turns & twistys must faster than those two.

I have to strongly disagree here. The S2000 is quite a bit faster through turns and that is if you compare a stock S2000 to even a slighty modified NSX. The S2000 lacks in power compared to the NSX but it's very, very fast through turns.

It's interesting to read that a 'few' changes to the NSX do their job. I can only tell you what I did to mine and these are:

- Zanardi springs (nearly double spring rate than stock in the front) + Bilsteins
- Type-R sway bar
- Type-R chassis bars
- Stiff Bridgestone tires

The responsivness is now much better than before but it's never in the class of a S2000 which I call the ultimate driving maschine. :wink: If you can't sleep about the crisp steering response buy a S2000 or a Miata.

 

[ChopsJazz]

First question: What tires are you using? The OEM tires make the NSX handle and respond very very well.

You may want to try updated steering bushings from SOS. If your NSX is older, chances are new bushings will help significantly.

This is the best advice to your original question. The OEM tires will improve initial turn-in and the updated steering bushings will probably help (as I have read on this site) as well. The Type-R chassis bar will keep the front pointed where you want it, but try the tires and bushings first.

I just got the bushings, but have not installed them yet. I'll let you know if there's any difference.

BTW, I've owned a couple Miata's and I loved them for the exact reasons you mentioned.

 

[EIFFEL]

Adding front and rear sway bars with Type R Front and Zanardi Rear will improve steering response to some degree. I also own a 2006 Mx-5 Sport with suspension pkg. MX-5 do indeed handles very well.

 

[lunchman]

I had the chance to drive a '06 Mazda Miata (Mx-5/Roadster) yesterday and it was a pure joyride on the small and curvy roads I tried it on.
I almost went home and put my NSX up for sale right away - it was that fun.:tongue:

Don't be doing that, just add a Miata to your collection! :smile: I haven't owned the NSX long enough or driven it hard enough to push it anywhere near its limit, but I still think the Miata is more tossable in the corners. From what I've read in the Miata forum (miata.net), the stock NC could use some suspension mods to help with the handling.

All I've done with my NB is switch to summer high performance tires (Goodyear F1 GS-D3) and ultra-light weight wheels (Konig Heliums). Other than that, the suspension is stock. Handling, as others have noted, is incredible. Totally different driving experience from the NSX.

(NB=2nd gen Miata, NC=Current gen)

 

[mcano]

I have owned a 92 Prelude with electronic 4-wheel steering since new, and when I first got my 95 NSX, I felt that the Prelude was significantly more nimble, particularly at slower speeds. Yes, I was wondering for a while, what was all of the hoopla about concerning the NSX’s handling abilities. Well, after 9 months of NSX ownership, I have gotten more accustom to the feel of my NSX and how to make the best out of its longer wheelbase and particularly its greater power. I still consider my Prelude a better handler at slow speeds, but at higher speed curves and acceleration coming out of any type of curve, the NSX is much better.

 

[ExCfive]

Having never driven a S2000 or a Miata I cannot comment on their handling capabilities.....HOWEVER if you want to fall in love with your NSX's steering response, handling, nimbleness etc...., go drive a C5 Corvette for awhile and when you return to the NSX you will feel like you have stepped from a Hummer H1 into a go-cart! That having been my last car I am loving the way the NSX feels by comparison and that is before I have gotten around to adding any susp. goodies.

 

[WingZ]

Hey guys I own S2000 and NSX and until you drop weight on your NSX. Stiffer chassis bracing won't help with feel. Lighter cars have less mass and respond more quickly. After losing about a hundred fifty pounds on my NSX it now as fun to drive as my S2000 ,but I did do all the NSX-R braces and front sway as well as SOS bushings and Spoon coilovers. I just wish I could comfortably drop the cars weight another hundred pounds;-)

 

[goldNSX]

I still wonder why there is so much use of very simple physics. :wink: The S2000 (i didn't drive the Miata) will still remain a very different car as far as cornering is concerned than the NSX. And it's not mainly the weight which is basically the same but much more the excellent wheel geometries and weight distribution. Did you ever watch when a S2000 was lifted how the wheels move? It's a masterpiece of construction to create a car that has such a high level of grip and crisp steering response. As soon as you change the tires to something other than OEM you'll be very disappointed with the handling in the S2000. This is why they constructed special tires and that's why it's so exceptional because they constructed the car 'around' these tires basically.
The NSX is a little bit boring here. As someone told: You could eat a hamburger at the speed of 200 km/h. You can't do the same in a S2000.

 

[MashimaroNSX]

Yes, I know the steering response of the S2000 I own and it's a completely different feeling. Sorry to say that you can change nearly everything on the NSX but it will never handle like a S2000. I did quite a few things with my NSX as far as handling is concerned but the cars remain very, very different from each other.



I have to strongly disagree here. The S2000 is quite a bit faster through turns and that is if you compare a stock S2000 to even a slighty modified NSX. The S2000 lacks in power compared to the NSX but it's very, very fast through turns.

It's interesting to read that a 'few' changes to the NSX do their job. I can only tell you what I did to mine and these are:

- Zanardi springs (nearly double spring rate than stock in the front) + Bilsteins
- Type-R sway bar
- Type-R chassis bars
- Stiff Bridgestone tires

The responsivness is now much better than before but it's never in the class of a S2000 which I call the ultimate driving maschine. :wink: If you can't sleep about the crisp steering response buy a S2000 or a Miata.

I will have to say that if you want the NSX to feel like a S2000 the best thing for you to get is the NSX-R suspension, if you compare the AP1's suspension you will know that it is quite stiff. After having the NSX-R suspension it literally felt remarkably similar to the S2000. After owning both cars I can say that the s2000 is more nimble because of its size and weight distribution. However in terms of going through the turns the NSX has a sharper turn in because the Mid engine design makes the front end extremely light plus there is no torque issue like in the s2000. If the s2000 was faster through the turns it isn't so significan't to the point that it completely blows away the NSX as the torque of the NSX will eventually balance it out.

 

[goldNSX]

I will have to say that if you want the NSX to feel like a S2000 the best thing for you to get is the NSX-R suspension, if you compare the AP1's suspension you will know that it is quite stiff. After having the NSX-R suspension it literally felt remarkably similar to the S2000. After owning both cars I can say that the s2000 is more nimble because of its size and weight distribution. However in terms of going through the turns the NSX has a sharper turn in because the Mid engine design makes the front end extremely light plus there is no torque issue like in the s2000. If the s2000 was faster through the turns it isn't so significan't to the point that it completely blows away the NSX as the torque of the NSX will eventually balance it out.

I agree to some level. The OEM-S2000 suspension is quite comfortable, esp. for the offered turn-in-response and grip level. The NSX Type R suspension is heared to be quite harsh and only ideal for a flat track. So you comprimize on variable for the other. There's no such compromize with the S2000 IMO. And IMO it's not the way to go with a very stiff suspension if the wheel/tire is so stiff that it looses contact on an UNEVEN road.
Please remember that the front alone doesn't determine a sharp turn-in it's the rear too. Orelse you don't want to get the front in the turn AND THE REAR NOT :wink: You loose ALOT of the crisp feeling if you go with the wrong tires in the back of a S2000 as this happened to me last year. (I was able to buy some OEM tires again and she now the way she has to. :wink: )
What is very respectable with the S2000 is that the rear wheel increases toe and camber under load by a large amount (not only this but also at the right time) and this happens from the point you turn the steering wheel by a very small degree. While driving the suspension is also pretensioned by a significant amount, it's like a snake ready to bite. That's why the S2000 has this very crisp turn-in and of course the high tire wear on the rear.
There have been several mechanics who couldn't do the alignement to the S2000 or did it the wrong way.
And I recall a trackday where a S2000 has been the fastest of all other cars and these have been Porsches and NSX's too. Ok, this could not have been a track with very long straights but this cars is really a blast in turns.

So the weight, the weight distribution, the tire size or the stiffer suspension are not the relevant factors, it's the design of the suspension geometry Honda did on purpose. :tongue: And they did it perfectly on the very early cars. They had to 'de-sharp' the suspension after 2002/2003 (?) because so many drivers didn't used their brain through turns and simply had an accident. Suspensionwise the S2000 is one of the ultimate driving maschines EVER built on the world IMO.

 

[joove]

I have owned a 92 Prelude with electronic 4-wheel steering since new, and when I first got my 95 NSX, I felt that the Prelude was significantly more nimble, particularly at slower speeds. Yes, I was wondering for a while, what was all of the hoopla about concerning the NSX’s handling abilities. Well, after 9 months of NSX ownership, I have gotten more accustom to the feel of my NSX and how to make the best out of its longer wheelbase and particularly its greater power. I still consider my Prelude a better handler at slow speeds, but at higher speed curves and acceleration coming out of any type of curve, the NSX is much better.

I had the exact same reaction. I didn't voice it at that time as I though people would lynch me for besmirching the much loved NSX handling . However after owning the NSX for more than three years now I can see how my impressions were formed. The steering effort needed and the fact that the NSX skips around hard turns plus the fact that with my old shocks it was tail happy make it not as confidence inspiring as the prelude. I am saving for the non-compliance parts and the chassis bars to polish up the handling bits.

-vamsi

 

[MashimaroNSX]

I agree to some level. The OEM-S2000 suspension is quite comfortable, esp. for the offered turn-in-response and grip level. The NSX Type R suspension is heared to be quite harsh and only ideal for a flat track. So you comprimize on variable for the other. There's no such compromize with the S2000 IMO. And IMO it's not the way to go with a very stiff suspension if the wheel/tire is so stiff that it looses contact on an UNEVEN road.
Please remember that the front alone doesn't determine a sharp turn-in it's the rear too. Orelse you don't want to get the front in the turn AND THE REAR NOT :wink: You loose ALOT of the crisp feeling if you go with the wrong tires in the back of a S2000 as this happened to me last year. (I was able to buy some OEM tires again and she now the way she has to. :wink: )
What is very respectable with the S2000 is that the rear wheel increases toe and camber under load by a large amount (not only this but also at the right time) and this happens from the point you turn the steering wheel by a very small degree. While driving the suspension is also pretensioned by a significant amount, it's like a snake ready to bite. That's why the S2000 has this very crisp turn-in and of course the high tire wear on the rear.
There have been several mechanics who couldn't do the alignement to the S2000 or did it the wrong way.
And I recall a trackday where a S2000 has been the fastest of all other cars and these have been Porsches and NSX's too. Ok, this could not have been a track with very long straights but this cars is really a blast in turns.

So the weight, the weight distribution, the tire size or the stiffer suspension are not the relevant factors, it's the design of the suspension geometry Honda did on purpose. :tongue: And they did it perfectly on the very early cars. They had to 'de-sharp' the suspension after 2002/2003 (?) because so many drivers didn't used their brain through turns and simply had an accident. Suspensionwise the S2000 is one of the ultimate driving maschines EVER built on the world IMO.

Actually believe it or not the NSX-R suspension is not harsh at all, it is stiff and very similar to the AP1 S2000's suspension. I've driven many NSX owners in my car and they are surprised on how the NSX-R suspension feels, not harsh at all but stiff and responsive not to mention the fact that I drive in New York City where the roads are less then ideally flat. If you are ever around the area I would be more then happy to let you try my car out.

 

[heySkippy]

I have to strongly disagree here. The S2000 is quite a bit faster through turns and that is if you compare a stock S2000 to even a slighty modified NSX. The S2000 lacks in power compared to the NSX but it's very, very fast through turns.

I know it's just anecdotal evidence, but I have twice now watched an S2000 lose it trying to follow me around a corner. The first time the guy did a complete 360. That was pretty cool.

 

[goldNSX]

Actually believe it or not the NSX-R suspension is not harsh at all, it is stiff and very similar to the AP1 S2000's suspension. I've driven many NSX owners in my car and they are surprised on how the NSX-R suspension feels, not harsh at all but stiff and responsive not to mention the fact that I drive in New York City where the roads are less then ideally flat. If you are ever around the area I would be more then happy to let you try my car out.

Thanks for your feedback. It's good to hear a different opinion of the Type-R suspension. Most of the feedback were: it's harsh, head jumps forth and back and so on, even some of the people sold it because of the harsh ride. But this could be biased if you read it here on the internet because only the people who didn't like it wrote a (negative) line about it.

Thanks too for the invitation but I think this would mean a x000 miles around the world for me. :wink: If I could testdrive a Type-R suspension I'd be very interested. I run a specialised Type-S suspension and have to say that it's not harsh at all but quite stiff. It's very comfortable indeed because I've told Bilstein to remain me some comfort. I'm too happy with it than change it again, (for tonight). I'm very interested in suspension in general and may ask my financial minister if I should buy the Type R suspension and simply try it out. :wink:

So you'd say that the Type R suspension is very similar to the S2000 suspension? That's interesting because I love the S2000 feel over everything I've driven before. Is the Type R suspension as neutral as the S2000?

 

[goldNSX]

I know it's just anecdotal evidence, but I have twice now watched an S2000 lose it trying to follow me around a corner. The first time the guy did a complete 360. That was pretty cool.

What setup do you have?

I once let a heavily modified 350Z behind me who was trying to race me in good combination of 5 turnes. Before the turnes he was 2 meters behind me, after the turnes it was 10 times more but he was really fast indeed. :wink:

 

[MashimaroNSX]

Thanks for your feedback. It's good to hear a different opinion of the Type-R suspension. Most of the feedback were: it's harsh, head jumps forth and back and so on, even some of the people sold it because of the harsh ride. But this could be biased if you read it here on the internet because only the people who didn't like it wrote a (negative) line about it.

Thanks too for the invitation but I think this would mean a x000 miles around the world for me. :wink: If I could testdrive a Type-R suspension I'd be very interested. I run a specialised Type-S suspension and have to say that it's not harsh at all but quite stiff. It's very comfortable indeed because I've told Bilstein to remain me some comfort. I'm too happy with it than change it again, (for tonight). I'm very interested in suspension in general and may ask my financial minister if I should buy the Type R suspension and simply try it out. :wink:

So you'd say that the Type R suspension is very similar to the S2000 suspension? That's interesting because I love the S2000 feel over everything I've driven before. Is the Type R suspension as neutral as the S2000?

The NSX-R suspension turns the car neutral and you can have play with the tail as you like using throttle and brake control, but more importantly the suspension makes the car feel like its on rails and the feedback you get from the car is incredible. In terms of comfort I can say that the Teins are much harsher even with the dampers set to its softest setting and as i've said before the ride comfort is very similar to the AP1 s2000, stiff but not harsh. But I can see why some NSX owners will tell you that the suspension is bone jarring because in comparison to the stock NSX suspension it is like night and day in terms of stiffness but if you asked me how the suspension felt in comparison to the AP1 s2000 I would say extremely similar in feel.

 

[heySkippy]

What setup do you have?

I have a stock suspension and I'm perfectly willing to believe the S2000s were piloted by perhaps less than terrific drivers. Since I've not driven the S2000 myself, I am completely unqualified to offer an real comparison.