Intake scoops...and Air Box

Joined
12 April 2005
Messages
571
Location
Ventura - LA County
Hello-


So I was messing around with my engine bay last night trying to wipe some dusts of and as I was looking at my Factory Air Box, it looks like there is this carbon fiber piece underneath it.

So I go and open up the air box, and sure enough it IS carbon fiber under there BUT the top is still OEM.

It looks like the previous owner of this car installed the CF Intake Box without the top, a sponge looking air filter and comptech Headers/Exhaust.

My Question to you is,

Will this car benefit from one of those Downforce scoops or those Cantrell scoops??

I looked up comptech's website last night and they CLAIM that the CF Airbox can yeild 8-9 WHP...

So basically, this car with the Comptech CF Air Box, Headers, Exhaust gained about what??? 15-20 WHP?

Will I gain some more by adding one of thse scoops??

thanks
Mike
 
You will gain more from the scoop. You get more air into your airbox which in turn will increase hp.
 
You will gain more from the scoop. You get more air into your airbox which in turn will increase hp.

How do you know this?

Nobody has proved this. No tests either, unless you consider the "butt dyno". There have been reported improvements of "intake sound".

In fact there appears to be little extra air pressure at the OEM vents to scavenge.

Please explain: I'm willing to purchase such an intake, but nobody has shown any proof that it helps anything (at least with the NSX in stock body form).

Drew
 
The cantrell scoop is supposed to take advantage of the extra air pressure.

The test can only be completed when the car is moving, presumeably the dyno is stationary.

I'd like to be corrected. I really would.

A good test would be stock, no scoop, scoop. Then all those tests on a moving vehicle and at different speeds.

EDIT:

Even worse: The SOS tests also uses a different filter and combines the two in the "test".

I'm hoping that SurferX can shed some light on his statements.

Drew
 
I believe that the reason why the scoop gives more horsepower is because a greater concentration of cold air is entering the airbox.
 
ram air effect is fairly negligble at the speeds we are talking about, see article below. believe the biggest benefit of this intake is that it allows more air to flow through and as we all know power is a function of mass flow.

Carl

http://www.bmwe30.net/cgi-bin/datacgi/database.cgi?file=articles&report=view&ID=00004&Section=03

The Myth of "Ram Air" Induction


Air filter modifications are a typical performance upgrade for BMW engines.
The addition of a free-flowing cone filter is the most common. Considerable verbiage has been written on this subject but I feel confusion remains.

This article addresses the perceived benefit of a "rammed air" intake system.

It is common knowledge that a car at speed can provide a ramming effect to the air entering a hood scoop. Common sense would suggest that this additional pressurization of the intake air reaching the air filter would result in increased engine performance, but is this added pressure really worth much? I have looked into this question and the short answer is no.

Engine power - pure and simple - is related to how much air-fuel mixture an engine can use and how high the compression ratio. Increase mass flow through the engine or increase the compression ratio and increased power output will result. The reason supercharging or turbocharging can dramatically increase engine power is because it in affect transforms a small-displacement low-compression engine into the equivalent of a large-displacement high-compression engine (yielding high mass flow / high effective compression ratio). But couldn't a "ram-air" intake yield some benefit? A poor man's supercharger so to speak? Let's investigate.

The ram-air pressure created by the forward motion of the car is proportional to inlet air density and the square of the velocity. Using conditions at 1000-ft elevation and 70F gives the following results:

Speed "ram pressure"
77-mph ( 0.1 psi )
109-mph ( 0.2 psi )
134-mph ( 0.3 psi )
155-mph ( 0.4 psi )
173-mph ( 0.5 psi )


Hence "legally" all one can expect to gain is a 0.1 psi increase in intake pressure (note this is a far cry from the 6-psi+ pressure increase that turbo's and superchargers produce). This increase in pressure is added to the ambient pressure of 14.17 psi raising it to 14.27 psi. But this is a less than a 1% increase in inlet pressure. This trivial increase in pressure would increase mass flow through the engine by a similar amount - yielding a 1.2-hp increase to a 170-hp engine. Not much of an increase and certainly not worth chopping up your Bimmer's hood or front end to capture this "ram air" effect. Truth is the reason some air-filter mod's yield a discernible power increase is not due to intake air pressure but temperature. Intake air temperature has a much more dramatic impact on inlet air density (and hence mass flow through the engine) than small changes in inlet pressure.

Here is an example:

Let's assume the factory airbox with its inlet behind the headlights draws in 70F air. A modified car with an exposed cone filter might breathe 110F warm air under the hood. Comparing the difference in air density with these two conditions reveals the warm air is 7.5% less dense than the cooler air and would consequently reduce engine power by a similar percentage - 158-hp vs 170-hp - a 12-hp reduction! In fact if we wanted to restore the density of the 110F air to that of the 70F stream, we would have to increase inlet pressure by 1.07-psi. So looked at in a reverse fashion, cooling the air 40-degrees is the equivalent of 1-psi of boost. Or another way, the cone filter would have to have 1-psi less pressure drop than the factory filter to yield equal power. Now 1-psi is a huge pressure drop for an air filter.
I have never personally measured this but my best guess would be a value of around 1-inch-H2O ( 0.04 psi).

So the bottom line... Forget about "ram air". Use a low-pressure drop filter. But most importantly, duct or box off the filter so that it will draw in the coolest air possible. With this last point in mind, the area behind the headlights seem optimal (closer to the road surface would likely be warmer).
 
The same questions have been asked (and remain unanswered here)
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49172

There is a safety issue with the AIS: an inconvenient splash of water into the system might cause water to get into the engine. The stock system doesn't allow this scenario to occur.

The stock filter has been shown to be the safest, reliable and best option. Many posts on that discussion too.

Drew
 
ak said:
Comptech intake box already has a scoop. Just not as big as the AIS.

Actually, it is bigger than the "scoops", as it encompasses both the OEM hole plus another opening into the engine compartment forward of the gas tank fill pipe. Probably increases the cross sectional area by at least 75%, maybe more.

The difference is the "scoops" mount directly to the fender opening, and the comptech setup terminates within the fender itself.

See the fender opening treatment that Honda gave to the NSX GT and you will realize the OEM openings have little to no ram air effect.
 
drew said:
The cantrell scoop is supposed to take advantage of the extra air pressure.

The test can only be completed when the car is moving, presumeably the dyno is stationary.

I'd like to be corrected. I really would.

A good test would be stock, no scoop, scoop. Then all those tests on a moving vehicle and at different speeds.

EDIT:

Even worse: The SOS tests also uses a different filter and combines the two in the "test".

I'm hoping that SurferX can shed some light on his statements.

Drew

Im pretty sure when SurferX dynoed his car he gained like 7rwhp from just the air scoop alone. I was there when they dynoed his car with no scoop with filter then added the scoop and the filter. I cant remember if his car had the filter on when they did a stock dyno and a AFTER result.

Iv seen some members run both AIS filter with scoop with comptech C/F air box with the lid fitting both perfect. That alone for all 3 is like over 1100 dollars.
 
drew said:
There is a safety issue with the AIS: an inconvenient splash of water into the system might cause water to get into the engine.
Just my .02cent.

I have never heard a single NSX owner having problem with water getting into the oem air box due to the AIS in the past 2 years. By the time any tiny little bit of water have chance to get into engine (That is if you really drive in serious storm or spray the scoop with pressurized water). It already vaporized. It have yet been proven as unsafe.

There are other cars that come with huge air scoop in from of the car from factory, such as CLK55, yet how often do you hear about the water damage on these cars. Find a CLK55, then pop the hood and check out the location of the scoop, you will be surprised. 360 Modena owners doesn't seems to be worried with their huge scoop either.

An inconvenient splash of water will not do a thing. Next time I wash the car, stop by if you would like to test it out, I will let you splash my NSX with a bucket of water of what ever size you wish for 10 times. I am serious btw.

I spray water in the scoop area briefly each and everytime I wash the car, never a problem.
 
Last edited:
1. The carbon part you are seeing is the Comptech Cold Air Intake. You can find this on their website.

2. Drew: The testing resulting in the power gain was completed stationary on a chassis dyno. I suspect that there may be even more gain at speed. Repeated testing has shown conclusively that these two products do result in power gains by our shop and others (Autowave comes to mind).

3. Drew: Water is not an issue. I was the first to test this device through Seattle rain showers. You do not want to submerge the intake, however, if water is above your door line as it must be to enter the side vent, I suspect you have bigger problems on your hands. As NSXSupra mentions, any tiny water droplets entering the ccombustion chamber are instantly vaporized. This type of induction is used on many new high performance production cars.

The Cantrell AIS can be found here:
http://www.scienceofspeed.com/products/exhaust_airflow_products/NSX/Cantrell_Concepts/AIS/

Regards,
-- Chris
 
Mojorator said:
Will this car benefit from one of those Downforce scoops or those Cantrell scoops??
I don't think that the AIS (Cantrell, Downforce or Dali) work with the Comptech airbox since the size of the Comptech airbox opening is too large (which is one of the reasons it can flow more air) for any of the AIS at the point where they should mate. The AIS is designed to mate to the opening on the stock airbox which has a smaller inlet size than the Comptech.
 
NSX Maven said:
I don't think that the AIS (Cantrell, Downforce or Dali) work with the Comptech airbox since the size of the Comptech airbox opening is too large (which is one of the reasons it can flow more air) for any of the AIS at the point where they should mate. The AIS is designed to mate to the opening on the stock airbox which has a smaller inlet size than the Comptech.
Maybe you can make your own AIS like this one, and take advantage of the Comptech airbox, best of both worlds:
9673DSC000127_Medium_.JPG
 
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