Intercooler for SC and Turbo's

[ken sampson]

I will build a new intake that will hold the new Whipple intercooler used on the
Cobra Mustang as shown if someone has an old style sheet metal comptech intake manifold they are willing to part with. I will sell them for what they cost only. It will work for all SC and Turbo's it will have a flat plate on the top that will unbolt so you can mill out for your application. This will also fit under the engine cover the same as the standard comptech SC.
http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/product.asp?ProdID=1203

 

[NSX-Tuner]

I understand that a prototype intercooler for the CT SC is being worked on by CT...

 

[titaniumdave]

Ken,
That thing is gigantic! I am working on one using a 1.25x6" core that will just fit inside the older Comptech intake, not ideal but it will allow me to fit the whole thing with less than 1 1/2" additional height. Plan is to have mine on the road by the end of February...

The first Comptech intercooler is getting installed on Kip Olsen's car, I hear it is a work of art! Custom built core that fit's inside the intake, about 1 1/2" tall and very clean.

 

[Wheelman]

I understand that a prototype intercooler for the CT SC is being worked on by CT...

Is that prototype gonna go into production for the mass market? I know there is a market out there for these intercoolers. I hope they just don't produce one prototype.

 

[RON98]

hopefully the price is reasonable. a 2000 intercooler would be just silly.

 

[brandonsan]

Anyone that is thinking about this should jump on this because Ken's craftsmanship is top notch.

 

[jdnsx]

A 97+ NSX will not be able to use an intercooler that raises the supercharger at all. You would have to build a custom strut bar or raise it at least 3 inches so the pulley snout would clear the bar. Ask me how I know.

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26544&d=1147567159

 

[ken sampson]

I talked to Whipple about this they sent me the drawings for two coolers. it will mount on the bottom side of the of the intake manifold. so this will not raise the stock Comptech height. We would extend the bottom of the intake to hold the cooler. I just need a intake manifold to use to fit this up. Once the proto type is built whipple will then help with the die casting..

 

[DDozier]

YA!!!!!, I am in for one as soon as possible, I wish I had the older intake you need but I do not.

How are you planning to relocate the bypass valve? There is some wasted space due to the current bypass design.

I have been looking at this for a while now, I started measuring and drawing a new intake design with a long intake runner system that runs over the charger (like the Cadi desgn see pic below), one that lowers the blower down into the V and would allow the intercooler to be remote mounted where the existing air box is, height would not be the issue but this design while I think would be more effective would require more mods than a drop in intercooler.

For me time is the issue, I have very limited time to develope a design. So you may be my only hope as CT has been teasing of this intake for a while now, and some say that Kip and maybe a few others will be the only ones to see the product. I really gave up hope of CT making the thing at all after Shad left CT.

For those of you without after market engine management, you may have issues with spark knock if the intake temps are reduced. I think you will need a little module that will fool the ECU on intake temps or relocate the IAT sensor to see the charged air prior to the cooler. Depending on you design this may be an issue.

If I can help in any way, I would love too. My car can be the ginne if need be, 91, CT headers, ARC, 9lbCTSC, AEM.

Dave

 

[titaniumdave]

I talked to Whipple about this they sent me the drawings for two coolers. it will mount on the bottom side of the of the intake manifold. so this will not raise the stock Comptech height. We would extend the bottom of the intake to hold the cooler. I just need a intake manifold to use to fit this up. Once the proto type is built whipple will then help with the die casting..

Sounds complex, will you eliminate the EGR tubes which are on the bottom of the Comptech manifold? Sounds like the Ford Lightening SC design, lower intercooler with the runners folding back up and then down to the ports in the heads. I guess that was the link you put in the first post...this should be an improvement in every way over the Comptech manifold.

I am working around the limitation of the current Comptech manifold to try and keep costs down and not have to make a manifold. Hope would be a bolt on/add on for the current CTSC.

 

[ken sampson]

This needs to be about 5" deep so the current comptech manifold will not work. I could use a standard Comptech not the sheet metal manifold is someone has one. this setup would be just like the ford. The hope would be to use the same cooler by just building a new manifild. If not we need to have the cooler bult as well.

 

[DDozier]

The hope would be to use the same cooler by just building a new manifild. If not we need to have the cooler bult as well.

I think a new cooler would be needed anyway, it will be hard to package that cooler, If you intend to cast a new intake maybe a Lamanova setup could be cast into the design. I have been looking at this since last year when I did my timing belt change and pulled everything off the top of the motor to clean everything. There is some wasted space to be gained under the blower with the current CTSC design if the bypass is relocated. Creating a custom casting that made the bypass internal to the intake design would allow that space to be used for the cooler or to lower the blower deep into the V of the motor.

If you use the space from the bypass and redesign the intake to house a water to air cooler then there should be room without raising the height of the blower. If you lower the blower the intake runner paths back to the heads are a little easier to design as the space from the runners to the blower can be quite close, making the injectors and fuel rail a bit tricky to work around. But the snout would have to be reversed and the outlet of the blower would need to dump upwards to a cooler mounted above the blower or to a collector to send the charged air away to a air to air cooler or a remote mounted water to air cooler. Servicing the older whipple style blowers can be an issue if it gets covered up. The cadilac design posted above is very compact and simple in design but would be a new kit not really an upgrade using existing CTSC kits.

Dave

 

[Elite]

I talked to Whipple about this they sent me the drawings for two coolers. it will mount on the bottom side of the of the intake manifold. so this will not raise the stock Comptech height. We would extend the bottom of the intake to hold the cooler. I just need a intake manifold to use to fit this up. Once the proto type is built whipple will then help with the die casting..

Is the cost of having them die cast it high? If so, I may have an option for making this thing. If your interested PM me and we can chat a bit. However for the next week, I'll be a little hard to get a hold of. I'll check my PM's and reply as soon as I can.

 

[titaniumdave]

Elite,
What do you have in mind for manufacturing the intake? Always nice to know about options...

DDozer,
I like the concept, is there room between the heads to get an off the shelf blower in and have the runners fit around the out side of it, head into the intake ports of the heads and fit the injectors in the correct orientation? Seems tight to me. A very nice design if it all works.

Ken,
Are you going to keep the EGR system with the new casting? I am not sure about removing it completely on my system, sure seems like it should be there, even if one chooses to disable it...

Dave

 

[ken sampson]

I will keep the EGR. When I talked with Whipple he said the ford only had 1/2" between the cooler and intake walls for the air to flow through. This is a very simple MOD. My plan was not to change the injector location but to cut out the bottom of the intake and extend it down to hold the largest cooler I can fit hopefully about 5". I would also refine the flow of the air.

 

[DDozier]

Elite,
is there room between the heads to get an off the shelf blower in and have the runners fit around the out side of it, head into the intake ports of the heads and fit the injectors in the correct orientation? Seems tight to me. A very nice design if it all works.
Dave

I have another design that allows for longer intake runners that actually cross over to be other side of the head that will allow the injector and fuel rail to stay in place without relocating them, but does not allow for a very deep core. The design above will hold a core much taller over 5" and a length of almost 6". I think we can get away with a shorter core but in both designs the length of the core can be faily long, I will try and do another drawing tonight to see how things work out. I still like the idea of dropping the blower as low as possible into the valley and pushing the charged air up instead of down, then the intake and cooler have no width limitation, i do have another design goal in mind for myself, and that is it has to look very good and be functional, This may mean a composite cover or something to clean up the mechanical look of the system but that all comes later. I do all my concept drawings in Corel Draw then if it looks like it will work I can move on to Solid Works for actual building, in the drawing above the blower is the Autorotor and is drawn to scale, the intake locations are in the correct orientation to the blower and belt pulleys, but are not scaled. I need to pull everything apart again to re-measure the heads and valley depth again, I did this all once but cannot find my notes. There is alot of room in the valley but the knock sensors and a few wire harnesses have to be accounted for.

With a conservative guess, do you guys think we can net 20-30hp with a charge of say 15* above ambient or am I just wishfull thinking here, I would do it for the safty reasons alone but to sell such a project the performance increase would be a big plus. Do you think the longer intake runners will yeild and measurable performance, the current CTSC runners are very short, less than 3 inches I believe.

Dave

 

[titaniumdave]

I will keep the EGR. When I talked with Whipple he said the ford only had 1/2" between the cooler and intake walls for the air to flow through. This is a very simple MOD. My plan was not to change the injector location but to cut out the bottom of the intake and extend it down to hold the largest cooler I can fit hopefully about 5". I would also refine the flow of the air.

On my Comptech, the EGR is routed through the bottom of the intake. If I cut a hole in the bottom, I would cut all the paths for the gas...is your different? Mine is one of the first generation, hand built ones...

 

[ken sampson]

I have another design that allows for longer intake runners that actually cross over to be other side of the head that will allow the injector and fuel rail to stay in place without relocating them, but does not allow for a very deep core. The design above will hold a core much taller over 5" and a length of almost 6". I think we can get away with a shorter core but in both designs the length of the core can be faily long, I will try and do another drawing tonight to see how things work out. I still like the idea of dropping the blower as low as possible into the valley and pushing the charged air up instead of down, then the intake and cooler have no width limitation, i do have another design goal in mind for myself, and that is it has to look very good and be functional, This may mean a composite cover or something to clean up the mechanical look of the system but that all comes later. I do all my concept drawings in Corel Draw then if it looks like it will work I can move on to Solid Works for actual building, in the drawing above the blower is the Autorotor and is drawn to scale, the intake locations are in the correct orientation to the blower and belt pulleys, but are not scaled. I need to pull everything apart again to re-measure the heads and valley depth again, I did this all once but cannot find my notes. There is alot of room in the valley but the knock sensors and a few wire harnesses have to be accounted for.

With a conservative guess, do you guys think we can net 20-30hp with a charge of say 15* above ambient or am I just wishfull thinking here, I would do it for the safty reasons alone but to sell such a project the performance increase would be a big plus. Do you think the longer intake runners will yeild and measurable performance, the current CTSC runners are very short, less than 3 inches I believe.

Dave

The other reason to drop the cooler below is so you can bolt any S/C on top or bolt a housing for a turbo charger. This makes a more universal intake system.

 

[ken sampson]

On my Comptech, the EGR is routed through the bottom of the intake. If I cut a hole in the bottom, I would cut all the paths for the gas...is your different? Mine is one of the first generation, hand built ones...

You can use all the same setup just drop them lower. Remember once we are into the proto type you always find better ways. You will be welding a bottom back in after extending the side walls and redirecting the runners. I will build it if I can find a manifold. It sounds like you have one of the origanal sheet metal type they are the best type to work with.

 

[ken sampson]

This is what I want to build for the NSX.

 

[DDozier]

Ken,

I have never seen the OEM intake as my car came with the CTSC already installed, but from the drawings in the service manual it looks like it was cast from three pieces, maybe we can work with the bottom piece and just cast a new upper piece to hold the blower and cooler. It looks to me like CT just reworked the upper section and then made a new casting for their design. This may not be possible but if you have one laying arround maybe it can work.

Dave

PS. Anybody have an old OEM intake laying arround, if I could use it to get all my measurements it would save me from having to take my system apart to build this in CAD. I would of course return it when I am done.

 

[DDozier]

The other reason to drop the cooler below is so you can bolt any S/C on top or bolt a housing for a turbo charger. This makes a more universal intake system.

Yes but not all blowers discharge in the same place, this will cause the snout to be out of allignment with the belt and will cause the intake to be designed for a larger discharge port to accept more blower types.

I think now is a good time to list a set of design goals if a new design will be needed.

1. use different blower options, whipple,autorotor,1.6l to 2.3l
2. intercooler integrated into the intake design
3. use factory brace in engine compartment
4. use as much of the CTSC kit
5.

Maybe the new intake design should not house the intercooler, maybe it should just route the air from the charger to an external path then from a return path send it to the intake ports on the head. This way one design could support air to air or water to air cooling for any screw type SC.

Has anyone seen the CTSC being designed for Kip's car, I am sure it is a custom core but how did they design their setup.

Dave

 

[Bob Kenney]

Ken,

I have never seen the OEM intake as my car came with the CTSC already installed, but from the drawings in the service manual it looks like it was cast from three pieces, maybe we can work with the bottom piece and just cast a new upper piece to hold the blower and cooler. It looks to me like CT just reworked the upper section and then made a new casting for their design. This may not be possible but if you have one laying arround maybe it can work.

Dave

PS. Anybody have an old OEM intake laying arround, if I could use it to get all my measurements it would save me from having to take my system apart to build this in CAD. I would of course return it when I am done.

I have an old 3.0 NA 1 intake laying around. I was contemplating cutting and welding it into a new configuration but have not started yet. If it will help you out let me know, its yours to use; although I would like it back to experiment with. I have another option that may interest you; please PM me if you would like the details.

 

[titaniumdave]

You can use all the same setup just drop them lower. Remember once we are into the proto type you always find better ways. You will be welding a bottom back in after extending the side walls and redirecting the runners. I will build it if I can find a manifold. It sounds like you have one of the original sheet metal type they are the best type to work with.

It's actually billet cut and welded together. I have it sitting on my bench if you want pics or measurements, I would trade for one of the cast ones with a bolt on top if that helps the project along. It would save me some time so I would not have to drill and tap the sides of my manifold after I cut the top off.

 

[titaniumdave]

Has anyone seen the CTSC being designed for Kip's car, I am sure it is a custom core but how did they design their setup.

Dave

I have talked with Shad about it, quite a bit. The fitment is the same as the one I am working on, intercooler is brazed into a plate which is about 1.5" tall and sits on top of the standard Comptech manifold. The intercooler is roughly 'V' shaped with a trough that is in the middle on the top and the bottom exits roughly point toward the intake runners. The bottom center of the 'V' is .5" from the inside base of the manifold. Picture the intercooler splitting the airflow to the front and the back of the motor as it sits in the car. Most of the intercooler actually sits inside the standard Comptech manifold.

On top of the intercooler plate is an adapter plate which can be made to fit up to any roots style intercooler, Whipple, Aerorotor, Eaton, etc...

I am drawn to this design from the stand point of keeping it simple, and gittin' 'er dun! I think Ken's design has a ton of merit and should make more HP when done, Shad always talks about the less than great runner set up with the standard Comptech manifold. The folded runners should work quite well, smooth out air flow and really help the top end, IMO.