Iraq War cost every American Family $16,500!!!

[KooLaid]

Why should American Citizens' $$$ go to messing with other countries when people are starving, New Orleans isn't rebuilt, we haven't cured Cancer, Aids, etc. Shouldn't we fix our own mess before we get into others?

On my final thought on this thread....

I'll agree with you enough on this aspect. I whole heartedly agree that we should say, "F#ck everyone else" and we need to work on our own country. If ONLY it was that simple. As a world super power, there is never a "good enough" to satisfy both ends. Either we don't do something and get yelled at for being a super power and watching some country suffer, do too little and get called "greedy" because of our country's wealth or do TOO much and we get this whole Iraq issue.

Never a happy medium. I say, "f#ck em all". I want cheaper health care and cheaper gas.

 

[Dtrigg]

On my final thought on this thread....

I'll agree with you enough on this aspect. I whole heartedly agree that we should say, "F#ck everyone else" and we need to work on our own country. If ONLY it was that simple. As a world super power, there is never a "good enough" to satisfy both ends. Either we don't do something and get yelled at for being a super power and watching some country suffer, do too little and get called "greedy" because of our country's wealth or do TOO much and we get this whole Iraq issue.

Never a happy medium. I say, "f#ck em all". I want cheaper health care and cheaper gas.

David,

Time to switch to the decaf pal.:biggrin:

Doug

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

16 grand is peanuts. If that's all it has cost we should have bought two wars and maybe gotten one free... as more likely than not we'll be over there again soon enough. Hopefully at our determination- and not because any of these wack nuts finally got hold of a sufficient quantity of Anthrax or nuclear material and decided to use it on American soil... so as to reinvigorate our resolve.

Really, just another useless statistic used by anti-war mongers to stir up the pot. Why even care? It's not like the IRS would have sent you a check or a free voucher for a new car.

If you are shocked by that one you should really be really furious about a service you won't ever use like Medicaid or social security. If you want to know the cost check your next pay stub.

BTW.... most of the really expensive programs aren't visible sexy targets. Add up the Department of Indian and Veteran Affairs, Education, Interior, etc... everywhere you look is either another program vying to justify its own existance... hiding hundreds of instances of gross mis-management and pork... and just the administrative costs of these thousands of federal programs are quite staggering. Unfortunately, unlike Iraq they aren't controversial.

Here is a better statistic- the average family of four holds $113,692 in national debt.

 

[richn001]

There are so many people out there that really think they know exactly what is going on. They are basing their opinions off of what media can give. This is sad as I expect so many more people to be intelligent in their decisions and opinions.

IMO...there is alot that we don't know. For those who expected pure and simple truth from our government and president, I think they are ignorant. I am not trying to be offensive, but our government is not going to tell us everything because what we know, the enemy will know. Surprise and intelligence (or lack thereof) are key in waging war.

As for WMD's, which I hear so often, that to me was an excuse. It doesn't matter to me if they were there or not, because just the possibility would be enough. The fact is Iraq kicked out the weapons inspectors time and again. The only reason the UN didn't react to this issue in a harsher way was because of A. Oil for food scandal and B. Leaders of the UN, Russia, France, and Syria among others were selling weapons to Iraq as shown in many photos early in the war.

As for Bin Laden not being in Iraq...again, nothing to do with the reason of war. Bin Laden IMO should've been caught by now, but we are not waging a war against a man, we are engaging in war against a mentality. Both Iraq and Afghanistan are in key strategic locations. I think that it was smart not to try and chase fundamentalists across the 52 countries where they exist including (UK, France, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, Spain, Germany, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, etc, etc). The US strategically picked two weak countries to fight the battle. Remember how the borders were so porous? Do you really think that a couple of AC-130 gunships couldn't handle keeping the border closed? The borders were and are porous for a reason. We were inviting those idiots to the party at the location of our choosing. Iraq was weak from the previous war and we had interests in mind of course (ie. Oil, taking out an idiot dictator, possibly getting some WMDs, etc) and Afghanistan was run by a bunch of ragtag ruthless criminals. Note though, that each of these two countries is surrounded by countries with fundamental islamists in their midsts. Wouldn't you rather invite your enemy from your friend's house to another enemy's house to play?

The war is for oil? Damn straight it is. War is costly. Oil is a resource that is quickly disappearing and not necessarily in quantity. Really, only 20% or so of the world's oil comes from the Mideast, but with the growth in the global economy, oil contracts were being spoken for...and spoken for way into the future. That's why its costing us so much now. The fact is, the US is out there to secure the most easily-attainable oil in the world (hence the cheapest) to run this country. Without cheaper oil, the world slows down even more so than it has and the country goes into shambles. For those people who choose to scream about how the war is all about oil, SHAME ON YOU!!! Oil and natural gas power, heat, operates your car, home, and business. You can't live without it...PERIOD! Please don't complain as gasoline is topping $4.00 a gallon or talk about how heating your home cost you 150% of last year's bill or how a flight cost you 50% more than usual. It is the JOB of this country to protect us AND allow us to do our jobs, pay our bills, drive our cars, light our homes, and not live in the Ice Age.

Many liberals also love to state how high oil prices doesn't affect the economy considering how Europe operates. For those that love to stay in the dark, the countries over there operate much differently. Most people walk, ride bicycles, or take mass transit. Those that do have vehicles use mopeds and economic cars. Only the very wealthy drive cars like ours around on a daily basis. Most people live, work, and shop in the vicinity of their homes. Traveling to Paris from the countryside is a luxury item...understand? We as Americans have been spoiled and live differently. Some of us travel 20-30-50 miles and more just to get to the office. We have these gigantic homes that need to be heated and cooled. You get the point. The US's infrastructure and people are so used to the way we've wasted energy that its hard to change to different sources of fuel without disrupting the economy and people's lives (hence, why we need to wage war over it). I will have this to say about Europe. They are so much more advanced when it comes to renewable energy. So, if you don't want a war over energy, then force yourselves to use high efficiency light bulbs, or install a solar powered water heater, use a geothermal device to heat your home, get a hydrogen powered car, etc, etc. THEN, get someone else to do it.

Sorry about my ranting, but it pisses me off to see people make a blanket statement with such hypocrisy behind it. There are so many pieces that are missing or that we don't put together because we are too lazy to THINK. I'd go on, but I'd be writing for days. Thoughts?

 

[myguitar]

Good point on Europe Rich. I'm from over there originally and I remember we never had a car when I was a kid and we never really needed one. The closest to seeing that out here is NYC or maybe San Fran. (?)

The OP asks "is it worth it?" I live in a place flooded with the Military and all the friends I've made here so far are in active service. Every single one of them, republican or democrat, disagrees with the war right now. They make the same arguments that you see stated throughout this thread. Some agree that Saddam had to go but at the same time, there were other priorities at hand that we should have taken care of first before removing him.

 

[Synthesis]

Political whiners will NEVER be happy. Apparently in politics, no matter who is president, the world will be shit because of that president. It's funny because those people whine about it for the rest of their lives, but taking turns every 4 or 8 years.

as long as something can be better, you should never be "happy".
that's called settling.
when people settle, there is no progress.

 

[TURBO2GO]

A lot of times you can look at the ingredients of something, and know what the outcome is going to be before you have cooked anything up. So if we look at the ingredients here:

1) We are addicted to and in need of energy. Lots of it. More so than any other country. If we don't have it, our entire economy comes to a standstill. We would essentially, be dead in the water without it.

2) The energy that we need, in the form that we need it today, does not exist here. It exists in other places in the world run by other governments. That's how it has been for a long time.

3) We have the strongest military in the world, by a longshot.

Does anyone disagree with the above 3 facts? Can you look at the ingredients here and see what is going to get cooked up?

Nevermind the politics of it. Here are some very basic facts that are undeniable. You can like or dislike bush, the government, our policies, etc. It really won't make much difference because these facts remain the same. Today's friend is tomorrow's foe (as was the case of both Bin-Laden and Saddam), and as is the case of Musharraf or the Saudi Royal family, or in the case of countries like Iran. As they say, if you don't sleep with a whore, you won't wake up with a whore. Even if all goes well in Iraq from this point on, we are still going to be getting cozy in bed with a whore. Another day, the cycle will continue. Another "problem" (the current one being terrorism) will rear its head again and we will be off again trying to fix it. Then we will have split parties, the ones for and the ones against whatever policy it will dictate, and more people will write on a message board being pissed off at why the other side just doesn't get it.

 

[Ryanmcd2]

I say we bomb Canada, club all the seals and build wal-marts all over.

 

[dyee]

Now that we got the WMD's, Saddam, and all the other reasons Bush sent our troops, I guess it's worth 4000+ Americans and THE great INSURGENCY PLAN in place after we declared the end of hostile action.

Could we use 2 trillion dollars ($2,000,000,000,000) for health care, jobs, SS, Medicare, education, infrastructure.... did I forget anything else?

 

[NSX_Dreamer]

Hitler never attacked the US. Was it worth the billions of dollars helping Britain fight the Nazis and then send millions of troops over to Europe?

 

[Sarge]

i just discovered this thread, in the process of selling my NSX. I love all you guys and I WILL OWN ANOTHER NSX. I am honored that I am even mentioned and remembered by people I have never met, and have. (Even if at just the beginning of the thread -DETRIGG. thanks ) So until then, ( if i do infact sell the car ) i will hopefully stay a member of the forum and hang out with such great people. And when My life is re arranged and I am serioulsy debt free I would have no problem spending time with ANY OF YOU. You are all great, beacuse Just like when you and I were young you saw an NSX and shouted and got excited, I want to perserve that kind of happiness. If you want to know first hand what is happening then please just ask, I'll fill you in. and Kool-Aid thanks for your service I was a soldier before too. yea i've done both, I will always be around. peace, and SEMPER FI ( ALWAYS FAITHFUL ) nsx owners are awesome.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Sarge I have to say that I find your avatar funny and I think its great that you have the sense of humor that you have. People like you are the type of person I want on this forum. Hope you can still hang around like all the other guys that sell their NSX and still hang out on nsxprime like a bunch of orphanded kids... hahaha :smile:

 

[Red]

On my final thought on this thread....

I'll agree with you enough on this aspect. I whole heartedly agree that we should say, "F#ck everyone else" and we need to work on our own country. If ONLY it was that simple. As a world super power, there is never a "good enough" to satisfy both ends. Either we don't do something and get yelled at for being a super power and watching some country suffer, do too little and get called "greedy" because of our country's wealth or do TOO much and we get this whole Iraq issue.

Never a happy medium. I say, "f#ck em all". I want cheaper health care and cheaper gas.

The issue is the Iraq didn't "need" anything done any more than Darfour - probably less, or The Sudan, or the Tussis, Don't we complain when the Police only pick on one type of person? We expect them to uphold the law universally - but also, nobody other than the US elected America the world's policeman.

16 grand is peanuts.
Here is a better statistic- the average family of four holds $113,692 in national debt.

Work with me here: $16,500/113,692 = 15%

Wouldn't it have been better to either pay down the debt by 15% or slide $3,000 a year in tax breaks to taxpayers?

IMO...there is alot that we don't know. For those who expected pure and simple truth from our government and president, I think they are ignorant. I am not trying to be offensive, but our government is not going to tell us everything because what we know, the enemy will know. Surprise and intelligence (or lack thereof) are key in waging war.

They're a difference between "Pure and Simple Truth" and clear lies and deception - if Clinton should have been impeached for lying about sex what should happen to a President who lies about reasons for war?

Your argument is chock full of cognitive dissonance, you believe in THIS Government so you are finding excuses for them to have done no wrong

As for WMD's, which I hear so often, that to me was an excuse. It doesn't matter to me if they were there or not, because just the possibility would be enough. The fact is Iraq kicked out the weapons inspectors time and again. The only reason the UN didn't react to this issue in a harsher way was because of A. Oil for food scandal and B. Leaders of the UN, Russia, France, and Syria among others were selling weapons to Iraq as shown in many photos early in the war.

By the time the war took place the weapons inspectors had unlimited access to Iraq and VERY confident that there were no weapons - it was private Iraqis abroad telling stories to the US in exchange for money and promises of power when the invasion happened that created the WMD.

As for Bin Laden not being in Iraq...again, nothing to do with the reason of war. Bin Laden IMO should've been caught by now, but we are not waging a war against a man, we are engaging in war against a mentality. Both Iraq and Afghanistan are in key strategic locations. ... Wouldn't you rather invite your enemy from your friend's house to another enemy's house to play?

Read Sun Tzu, the idea is NOT to come to physical war - the solution was (isn't right now, its too late) to do what America does best, build McDonalds and movie theaters across the Middle East, showing great American movies fully translated into Arabic dialects. Making them want to be like us is how you get them to not want to kill you - right now the middle east tv shows and web sites are all about death to america - its their new "Pop Culture" - wouldn't it have been better if they were watching desperate housewives and the women started questioning berkas?

The war is for oil? Damn straight it is. War is costly. Oil is a resource that is quickly disappearing and not necessarily in quantity. Oil and natural gas power, heat, operates your car, home, and business. You can't live without it...PERIOD! Please don't complain as gasoline is topping $4.00 a gallon or talk about how heating your home cost you 150% of last year's bill or how a flight cost you 50% more than usual. It is the JOB of this country to protect us AND allow us to do our jobs, pay our bills, drive our cars, light our homes, and not live in the Ice Age.

Oil prices increases because of uncertainty of supply from the Mid East - or at least the excuse thereof - Uncertainty exists because the Americans stirred up the Mid-East.

What is gonna shock the sh1t out of you is that the world's largest (and quietest) oil producer is Russia and the former USSR. The high price of oil is slowly rebuilding the former Soviet army and driving Russia back into an almost Communist type of governance and posture.

Since I not only go to Moscow regularly but many of my friends do business there I can state the above unequivocally! The US's actions in Iraq have helped restore Russia!!!

Sorry about my ranting, but it pisses me off to see people make a blanket statement with such hypocrisy behind it. There are so many pieces that are missing or that we don't put together because we are too lazy to THINK. I'd go on, but I'd be writing for days. Thoughts?

I think you have your views backed by the cognitive dissonance of you wanting to see what what you want to see, so you're ignoring the obvious contradictions. Use Google News and read some articles about America in the foreign press, sit with me and lets talk about the new geopolitical realities and for gods sake, un-brand yourself, you don't have to be a Republican, you can just be an intellectual, you're obviously smart and analytical.

A lot of times you can look at the ingredients of something, and know what the outcome is going to be before you have cooked anything up. So if we look at the ingredients here:

1) We are addicted to and in need of energy. Lots of it. More so than any other country. If we don't have it, our entire economy comes to a standstill. We would essentially, be dead in the water without it.

2) The energy that we need, in the form that we need it today, does not exist here. It exists in other places in the world run by other governments. That's how it has been for a long time.

3) We have the strongest military in the world, by a longshot.

Does anyone disagree with the above 3 facts? Can you look at the ingredients here and see what is going to get cooked up?

Nevermind the politics of it. Here are some very basic facts that are undeniable. You can like or dislike bush, the government, our policies, etc. It really won't make much difference because these facts remain the same. Today's friend is tomorrow's foe (as was the case of both Bin-Laden and Saddam), and as is the case of Musharraf or the Saudi Royal family, or in the case of countries like Iran. As they say, if you don't sleep with a whore, you won't wake up with a whore. Even if all goes well in Iraq from this point on, we are still going to be getting cozy in bed with a whore. Another day, the cycle will continue. Another "problem" (the current one being terrorism) will rear its head again and we will be off again trying to fix it. Then we will have split parties, the ones for and the ones against whatever policy it will dictate, and more people will write on a message board being pissed off at why the other side just doesn't get it.

Very insightful! The only issue is that the guys making the decisions are not smart enough to play a few steps ahead. When your three observations are acted on by a reactionary it spells trouble!

Hitler never attacked the US. Was it worth the billions of dollars helping Britain fight the Nazis and then send millions of troops over to Europe?

Yes, it was, and the US made tons of $$$ doing it, Europe paid the US back for YEARS, fueling the 50's and the expansion of the Middle Class (thats when every american got a car, remember?)

In that case, just as in the 1st Iraq war, the war was just because it wasn't about taking over, it was about moving in and replacing an invading government with a historical, local, one.

There are very few Powers that have invaded and held land/countries for extended periods - the Greeks under Alexander the Great, the Persian Empire, the Romans, the Nazis (short) and the Russians. All came in a declared martial law, killed dissonats without hesitation and all built extensive infrastructures.

The US did not take this approach, nor could it - therefore it shouldn't have started the process!

 

[jond]

I don't care about $16,500. This is what I care about:

What I care about is the terrorist who attacked us on 9/11 are not even being hunted. WHY?!?!?

And what REALLY REALLY pisses me off is how before 9/11. A MONTH before 9/11, people shorted airline stocks. 10x more than usual. This was WAY more money than bin laden or any "terrorist" has. But yet, it has never been investigated who shorted the stocks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's obvious who ever shorted the stocks knew the attack was going to happen. These people should be in jail. My fear is it's people in our government who shorted the stocks. There is no other reason why there wouldn't be an investigation.

So yeah, $16,000. That sucks. Our government refusing to catch the people who did it. THAT pisses me off.

 

[BladesNSX]

Red.........You saved me a lot of work by replying to some of the posts above that needed to be addressed. Well done.

Now, I am indeed shocked about Russia. Are they really progressing back into a communist state Not to hijack the thread.:redface:

 

[Red]

I don't care about $16,500. This is what I care about:

What I care about is the terrorist who attacked us on 9/11 are not even being hunted. WHY?!?!?

And what REALLY REALLY pisses me off is how before 9/11. A MONTH before 9/11, people shorted airline stocks. 10x more than usual. This was WAY more money than bin laden or any "terrorist" has. But yet, it has never been investigated who shorted the stocks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's obvious who ever shorted the stocks knew the attack was going to happen. These people should be in jail. My fear is it's people in our government who shorted the stocks. There is no other reason why there wouldn't be an investigation.

So yeah, $16,000. That sucks. Our government refusing to catch the people who did it. THAT pisses me off.

That whole story is being propagated by the uTube myth videos - I have yet to see real evidence that it occurred - those videos have been constructed and funded by Islamisists who are "Blame Storming" even without proof, and there is proof, the fact it all comes back to Zionist Jews and the Catholic Church proves the slant of the video makers - I can quote something as fact and if you don't fact check it you will assume I'm right - 87% of all statistics are false!

Red.........You saved me a lot of work by replying to some of the posts above that needed to be addressed. Well done.

Now, I am indeed shocked about Russia. Are they really progressing back into a communist state Not to hijack the thread.:redface:

The US and its media are ignoring the old threat and focused on the new one - I think the principal is "too much bad news is bad, a little bad news unites people"

Russia is rapidly becoming the totalitarian state it has always been, Perestroika only re-shuffled the deck. Look at it, Putin is now the richest man in the world (yes, not on the Forbes list) but he owns and controls Russia's oil - period. Anyone else in the oil biz has been or is being forced to sell to him (including some friends of mine)

They're being told (not offered) a somewhat reasonable price and if they don't take the $$ its off to jail!

Meanwhile, Putin is rebuilding the Russian Army - their Navy is out of mothballs - nobody is "noticing"

 

[PhiAlpha44]

Maybe some of you need to watch a few videos of these animals sawing the heads off of innocent people. Then tell me if we should be there. The Iraq war didn't cost every american family $16,500. I haven't felt it. How much did we spend on welfare and government programs during this same amount of time. How much did that cost american families? And Red... that's pretty funny. I'm glad you want to stop a bunch of brain washed murderers with Desperate Housewives. Lol.

 

[Red]

Maybe some of you need to watch a few videos of these animals sawing the heads off of innocent people. Then tell me if we should be there. The Iraq war didn't cost every american family $16,500. I haven't felt it. How much did we spend on welfare and government programs during this same amount of time. How much did that cost american families?

Sadly I saw one of these videos - its disgusting that in what we consider to be an enlightened world people are still barbarians!

The question though is, "Is our being there simply giving them head to cut off and a sense of justification to do so?"

When Saddam was in power there were no videos, it was only after the American invasion that this trend started. Under Saddam they were only killing each other - and remember, the new guys to hate are Iran, Iraq's arch enemy - who kept them in check before the invasion? Saddam and his posturing about what a tough guy he was - he never threatened America, just Iran and Israel (and Kuwait)

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

Work with me here: $16,500/113,692 = 15%

Wouldn't it have been better to either pay down the debt by 15% or slide $3,000 a year in tax breaks to taxpayers?

Your're asking if it would have been cheaper to stay out and to have the IRS get you a refund check out or pay-down some fraction of the debt?


What do you think?

Here is the reality. How much would it have cost our economy had a terrorist cell succeeded in killing another 15,000 or even 150,000 Americans?

Two days after 9/11 Continental Airlines laid off or furloughed 12,000 employees just because they thought air travel was going to be a little light moving forward. Little did they know it would take three years to so much as get people to board a plane again. For those whom are also complaining about a gallon of gas on the other thread..... yes, what is one more dollar on a barrel of oil worth to us as the Ghawar field starts to dry out in the next decade? Will it be on tankers coming here or flowing through a pipeline to China? What is an entire extra embargoed country of potential suppliers and consumers worth to US business? All that's just the icing on the cake.

I'm fairly certain the accountants already did the math, and realized that it was time to go and get it right over there- regardless of what is PC over here.

They're a difference between "Pure and Simple Truth" and clear lies and deception - if Clinton should have been impeached for lying about sex what should happen to a President who lies about reasons for war?

That argument is such BS. The presidential staff make their decisions based on the best available classified information. Not everything is black or white. Are only ask of them can be to do the best job possible and make the best decisions with the information on hand. The only thing that argument tends to support... is that at 250K a year being leader of the free world has to be the most thankless job in existence.

After Afghanistan- removing Saddam from power was really the only option. Having tried to assassinate him several times, we were not exactly on his friends list. At best his family had the capacity to deliver refuge, money, influence... and at worst chemicals, or other materials to Al Qaida or other cells on a silver platter. Not to mention- screw what some American liberal or pundit may think on CNN... the people of Iraq are a lot better off in the long-run from what we've accomplished over there.

However, we still have to clean-up the mess. The single most important thing we're doing over there is ensuring that we leave Iraq a strong and free government. Hopefully one that won't collapse under the insurgency after we leave. Vietnam taught us why you don't leave Military decisions to politicians or the bleeding heart liberal voters to which they cater.

I think you have your views backed by the cognitive dissonance of you wanting to see what what you want to see, so you're ignoring the obvious contradictions. Use Google News and read some articles about America in the foreign press, sit with me and lets talk about the new geopolitical realities and for gods sake, un-brand yourself, you don't have to be a Republican, you can just be an intellectual, you're obviously smart and analytical.

My prediction is that due to the pussification of America... most of the world will be walking all over us in the next few decades.

As your post demonstrates- the problem we have, is that the average American has become a whiny gutless pig with unrealistic expectations. They expect everyone to do a perfect job for them all the time. They demand that foreign intelligence and CIA assets be spot on all the time. That's not the business they are in.

Further, they want results without having to pay the price for them. They want a war, but can't have any casualties. They certainly don't want to have to pay for it as OMG their IRS refund check is less than what it could have been......

They expect the region to change over-night and things to just move right along... the way they think..... things should work like this or like that.... despite having zero knowledge of the issues, religion, or culture.

Everyone is willing to go get the bad guys after a terrorist attack..... until they lose interest and go back to shopping for their designer jeans or it starts to cost them another nickle on a gallon of gas.

Sad....

I suspect it will take a lot more deaths before America learns this lesson.

 

[Ski_Banker]

Your're asking if it would have been cheaper to stay out and to have the IRS get you a refund check out or pay-down some fraction of the debt?


What do you think?

Here is the reality. How much would it have cost our economy had a terrorist cell succeeded in killing another 15,000 or even 150,000 Americans?

Two days after 9/11 Continental Airlines laid off or furloughed 12,000 employees just because they thought air travel was going to be a little light moving forward. Little did they know it would take three years to so much as get people to board a plane again. For those whom are also complaining about a gallon of gas on the other thread..... yes, what is one more dollar on a barrel of oil worth to us as the Ghawar field starts to dry out in the next decade? Will it be on tankers coming here or flowing through a pipeline to China? What is an entire extra embargoed country of potential suppliers and consumers worth to US business? All that's just the icing on the cake.

I'm fairly certain the accountants already did the math, and realized that it was time to go and get it right over there- regardless of what is PC over here.




That argument is such BS. The presidential staff make their decisions based on the best available classified information. Not everything is black or white. Are only ask of them can be to do the best job possible and make the best decisions with the information on hand. The only thing that argument tends to support... is that at 250K a year being leader of the free world has to be the most thankless job in existence.

After Afghanistan- removing Saddam from power was really the only option. Having tried to assassinate him several times, we were not exactly on his friends list. At best his family had the capacity to deliver refuge, money, influence... and at worst chemicals, or other materials to Al Qaida or other cells on a silver platter. Not to mention- screw what some American liberal or pundit may think on CNN... the people of Iraq are a lot better off in the long-run from what we've accomplished over there.

However, we still have to clean-up the mess. The single most important thing we're doing over there is ensuring that we leave Iraq a strong and free government. Hopefully one that won't collapse under the insurgency after we leave. Vietnam taught us why you don't leave Military decisions to politicians or the bleeding heart liberal voters to which they cater.




My prediction is that due to the pussification of America... most of the world will be walking all over us in the next few decades.

As your post demonstrates- the problem we have, is that the average American has become a whiny gutless pig with unrealistic expectations. They expect everyone to do a perfect job for them all the time. They demand that foreign intelligence and CIA assets be spot on all the time. That's not the business they are in.

Further, they want results without having to pay the price for them. They want a war, but can't have any casualties. They certainly don't want to have to pay for it as OMG their IRS refund check is less than what it could have been......

They expect the region to change over-night and things to just move right along... the way they think..... things should work like this or like that.... despite having zero knowledge of the issues, religion, or culture.

Everyone is willing to go get the bad guys after a terrorist attack..... until they lose interest and go back to shopping for their designer jeans or it starts to cost them another nickle on a gallon of gas.

Sad....

I suspect it will take a lot more deaths before America learns this lesson.

What's sad is your argument that the problems created by the U.S. government are somehow the fault of the citizens for whom the government was elected to represent.

I tried to stay out of this thread....

Newsflash: Saddam Hussein wasn't a threat to anyone, and if oil or Israel became suddenly urgent issues -- guess what? We can take over any oil asset in the world in a matter of days. Why do so in advance?

True, intelligence mistakes will always be made -- nobody expects perfect decisions. But Christ, at least the Bush Admin could have at least developed a good plan for planting WMDs in Iraq to bolster support for his fake war. Gives new meaning to the term Bush League.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

Newsflash: Saddam Hussein wasn't a threat to anyone,

It is a fact that there were estimates of 30,000-50,000 dead Kurds in the Halabja gas attack, mostly woman and children... that would probably go ahead and disagree with you on that one. Along with who knows how many dissidents were tortured inside of Abu Ghraib....

I suppose per your logic that Kim Jong II isn't a threat to anyone either, we should just ignore him and those nuclear tests....

 

[Ski_Banker]

It is a fact that there were estimates of 30,000-50,000 dead Kurds in the Halabja gas attack, mostly woman and children... that would probably go ahead and disagree with you on that one. Along with who knows how many dissidents were tortured inside of Abu Ghraib....

I suppose per your logic that Kim Jong II isn't a threat to anyone either, we should just ignore him and those nuclear tests....

Correct, and also by "my logic" Hugo Chavez is a threat and Trix are for kids. Pls -- take your Ritalin and stay on topic. The discussion is about Iraq and Saddam Hussein.

Suppose you're right about the gas attacks. When did those occur again? The 1980s? Whose gas was that which was used? Ours? Call me callous, but I'd trade 50,000 kurds in the 1980s for 4,000+ of our guys NOW + $15Bn/month of our money.

Please, just respond to my comments or those of Iraq and don't make fallacious comparisons to very different situations in N. Korea, Iran, elsewhere. Unless, of course, you think that "good" and "evil" are universal regardless of the geographic location or the genesis of the "evil" threat.

 

[Ski_Banker]

Since John@VistaSux turned this into discussion of nuclear proliferation and how to prevent the (very real IMO) threat of nuclear terrorism. I'll offer a solution.


Have President Bush or ____ announce, loudly and in absolutely no uncertain terms (repeatedly, week in and week out) that if a nuclear weapon is detonated on U.S. soil, the origins of the nuclear material will be traced and the country from which the material originates will be completely and totally wiped off the map. No international courts. No tribunals. Just an epic massacre on the country that sponsors the terrorism.

Iran -- want to give some nuclear material to terrorists to detonate? Go for it. The globe will show nothing but a Texas sized hole where your civilization existed. Nothing will be spared.

N. Korea -- you too.


DONE. Problem solved. No state sponsored nuclear terrorism.

 

[Dtrigg]

Since John@VistaSux turned this into discussion of nuclear proliferation and how to prevent the (very real IMO) threat of nuclear terrorism. I'll offer a solution.


Have President Bush or ____ announce, loudly and in absolutely no uncertain terms (repeatedly, week in and week out) that if a nuclear weapon is detonated on U.S. soil, the origins of the nuclear material will be traced and the country from which the material originates will be completely and totally wiped off the map. No international courts. No tribunals. Just an epic massacre on the country that sponsors the terrorism.

Iran -- want to give some nuclear material to terrorists to detonate? Go for it. The globe will show nothing but a Texas sized hole where your civilization existed. Nothing will be spared.

N. Korea -- you too.


DONE. Problem solved. No state sponsored nuclear terrorism.

Does that mean if someone steals some of our nuclear material and uses it, then we'll have to blow ourselves up? :biggrin:

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

Correct, and also by "my logic" Hugo Chavez is a threat and Trix are for kids. Pls -- take your Ritalin and stay on topic. The discussion is about Iraq and Saddam Hussein.

That is what was being cleanly discussed...

Suppose you're right about the gas attacks.

I don't think it is an issue of supposition. You can look it up in any Encyclopedia.

When did those occur again? The 1980s?

This guy ordered the brutal ethnic cleansing of tens of thousands of people. He is an imperialist whom invaded and plundered a neighboring country.... so now you are saying that you just didn't consider him a current/immediate threat?

Hmm. A past pre-cursor is no indication of future behavior in your world. Yet, I bet you would be crying for blood and GPS bracelets if a serial sex offender from the 1970's moved into your kids neighborhood...

Whose gas was that which was used? Ours?

If you read the above wiki article to which I linked, it goes on to state...

The know-how and material for developing CW were obtained by Saddam's regime from foreign firms.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-9>[10]</SUP> By far, the largest suppliers of precursors for chemical weapons production were in Singapore (4,515 tons), the Netherlands (4,261 tons), Egypt (2,400 tons), India (2,343 tons), and West Germany (1,027 tons). One Indian company, Exomet Plastics (now part of EPC Industrie Ltd.) sent 2,292 tons of precursor chemicals to Iraq. The Kim Al-Khaleej firm, located in Singapore and affiliated to United Arab Emirates, supplied more than 4,500 tons of VX, sarin, and mustard gas precursors and production equipment to Iraq.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-10>[</SUP>
<SUP></SUP>
<SUP></SUP>
<SUP></SUP>

Call me callous, but I'd trade 50,000 Kurds in the 1980s for 4,000+ of our guys

That's because you feel you are empowered to weigh the value of life. I will leave that one up to a psychiatrist to figure out how it came to be that you became so disconnected from normal social behavior...

+ $15Bn/month of our money.

Back to the money again, of course.

Please, just respond to my comments or those of Iraq and don't make fallacious comparisons to very different situations in N. Korea, Iran, elsewhere. Unless, of course, you think that "good" and "evil" are universal regardless of the geographic location or the genesis of the "evil" threat.

Fallacious comparisons

I called out yet another dictator that sees history as being on his side, one whom I might add is regularly grouped in by academics worldwide.

I have to be honest here. It's really hard to justify the time to argue with someone that believes that "Saddam Hussein wasn't a threat to anyone". I mean, where do you really go from there? You're not leaving me with a lot to work with here.

I am of the opinion at this point that you are simply trying to disregard/deemphasize the inconvenient facts that are contrary to your anti-war argument.

Pretty typical.