When I said software, I meant for ICE and EV. A 10% bump in each seems plausible, no? A simple "time" for turbo cars can add a lot of power.
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Lightweight ICE-Only Variant or A More Powerful Type-R
I am willing to bet that it is. There is no way this car is close to the edge at the risk of drivetrain failures.
A slight hit to performance for extra insurance against failure (especially electric drive/battery failure) is what I would have done.
fastaussie
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someone must have missed the humour here?
do you really think Ferrari and Audi stay up at night worrying about what Honda is doing?
Let's say, for arguments sake, that Honda chose to take the technology from the three limited volume very high priced hybrid supercars from Porsche,Ferrari and McLaren because they see it as the path forward for supercars.
And let's say, with the enormous amount of science and investment going on with electrics and batteries, that electric/battery drive lines will become increasingly light and more efficient.
And so if Honda's chosen path is the right one they will have the technology jump on all their competitors as well as low cost production techniques.
And so all the competitors will be spending enormous capital playing catch-up but Honda will be very difficult to unseat as the leader.
The new NSX, although "in the mix" to quote Chris is lagging somewhat in some performance comparos which you and many others enjoy pointing out ad nauseum.
However a bit of turbo boost, a bit of extra electricity, and voila the NSX can run at or near the top of the pack.
So to answer your question, I have no idea if Ferrari and Audi are staying up at night worrying about Honda.
But they should be. :smile:
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That's a lot of ifs and assumptions. Besides, the reality is that the 918, LaFerrari, and P1 are setting new performance standards and is becoming classics that appreciates in value. In the mean time, the new NSX is at best trying hard to keep up with the 911, 488, and 570s.
The NSX might be low cost compared to the Holy Trinity, but that's because it doesn't use CF chassis and CF body panels, has much smaller and less powerful battery and motors, not a PHEV and no active aero...etc.
I would love to see that happen, but at the moment none of that extra performance is available. If Honda can disappoint now in the performance department, who is to say that they won't disappoint again with the future updated NSX 2.1. If there is a 2.1 at all.
With respect, it is Honda that has to decide if they wanna up their game with the NSX in a few years or just let the NSX sales dwindle.
I don't think I explained my point well.
I'm not comparing the NSX to the Trinity, the NSX is not in that league.
What I'm trying to say is Honda has chosen a similar technology and offered it at a reasonable cost.
And my guess is Honda can see there is a lot more performance upside on the electric drive side than there is on the ICE side.
So they've gone the route that they believe offers more long term gain.
If you are convinced Honda has disappointed now then I can see why you would doubt they can deliver in the future
Well who else but Honda would decide if they want to keep developing their hybrid drive technology?
Certainly their choice of technology may turn out to be wrong but do you really think Honda would spend the millions they've committed to performance hybrid technology without a long term plan?
The NSX was bench-marked against the 458 and R8 and achieved that target.
Are we surprised it's now a few 10ths off the pace on recent tests on cars produced since that bench-marking was done?
And those few 10th's are now enough to call the car a failure?
Are you a first generation NSX owner?
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With Honda spending millions on the NSX as well as the PMC building, I'd imagine they want to do more than just having one NSX variant. The 1g NSX was about bridging the gap of Honda's F1 success and the bread and butter Civic and Accord. For the new NSX, I believe they also try to make money out of it. This is why you can add like $50k of accessories (high profit margin). And adding variants will help increase sales volume, hence more likely to break even and make a profit.
My understanding is that Honda will have 5 variants for the NSX:
- Base NSX (what we see right now)
- NSX convertible/targa
- NSX Type R
- NSX Electric only
- NSX non-hybrid
In particular, the NSX Type R would still be a hybrid. But most likely, it will lose its front motors to save some weight, while adding power to both the ICE and the rear motor. I'd imagine there will be a big wing or more focus on aero to increase downforce (no more trail braking oversteering).
The Cosworth-built ICE right now is relatively "tame" as it does not have VTEC and its peak boost is only at 15.2psi. For comparison, the Civic 1.5T peaks at 16.5psi, M4 at 19psi, CLA45 AMG at 26psi. Honda can implement VTEC and increase the turbo boost. This is pretty much a proper race car engine, there's plenty of headroom.
As for the electric side of things, we can just look at the Tesla Model S and see how things can evolve with the NSX. Specifically, take a look at how the Model S went from the P85D to P90D, and now P100D in just a couple years. Electric technologies are improving steadily.
Conservatively, I see the front motors delete along with extra weight reduction to trim the weight by 300lb, which should bring the curb weight to some 3500lb. Loosing the front motors will lose some power, but increasing ICE and rear motor output should at least make up for the loss of front motors.
My understanding is that Honda will have 5 variants for the NSX:
- Base NSX (what we see right now)
- NSX convertible/targa
- NSX Type R
- NSX Electric only
- NSX non-hybrid
In particular, the NSX Type R would still be a hybrid. But most likely, it will lose its front motors to save some weight, while adding power to both the ICE and the rear motor. I'd imagine there will be a big wing or more focus on aero to increase downforce (no more trail braking oversteering).
The Cosworth-built ICE right now is relatively "tame" as it does not have VTEC and its peak boost is only at 15.2psi. For comparison, the Civic 1.5T peaks at 16.5psi, M4 at 19psi, CLA45 AMG at 26psi. Honda can implement VTEC and increase the turbo boost. This is pretty much a proper race car engine, there's plenty of headroom.
As for the electric side of things, we can just look at the Tesla Model S and see how things can evolve with the NSX. Specifically, take a look at how the Model S went from the P85D to P90D, and now P100D in just a couple years. Electric technologies are improving steadily.
Conservatively, I see the front motors delete along with extra weight reduction to trim the weight by 300lb, which should bring the curb weight to some 3500lb. Loosing the front motors will lose some power, but increasing ICE and rear motor output should at least make up for the loss of front motors.
Maybe maybe not, in all cases i dont think there is a lack of power. Seems like there is plenty of it already, the straight line tests are kinda OK. In the curves though its weight seems to come back to bite the driver even through the nannies, if the car tends to drift that easily more power will just make matters worse. Lighter weight and active aero, that would have been a lot better.
The 458 comparison argument is moot due to the time it's taken them to develop the car. If they wanted to stay competitive and reiterate the shock of 1st gen they should have benchmarked against the 488, or get the car on market 2 years earlier at least.
I'm not referring to today's car. The upside I'm referring to is that electric drive systems are at an early stage of development compared to an ICE. There's likely more incremental gains on the electric side as components get lighter and batteries more efficient.That would bode well for continued evolution of the hybrid drive system.
They had to stop development and get a car ready for production at some point.
When you do that you always have the risk of falling behind as it is infinitely easier for the competitors to evolve an existing car than build a completely new one.
So perhaps they should have bench-marked the 488/R8/911 successor, if they knew what it was.
An exaggerated statement. Each manufacturer has a particular hybrid sports or super car in mind.
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The ones that seem to think the new NSX is a failure are the ones that were never going to buy it in the first place.
There are plenty of happy or satisfied owners that have already posted.
Again, where are you reading/hearing about each manufacturers forward sports/super car plans?
BMW/Toyota's Supra/Z5 hybrid is getting ready to debut finally. Next gen GTR is supposedly hybrid also. McLaren says they will. Ferrari is supposed to follow suit:
http://jalopnik.com/exclusive-heres-the-best-look-yet-at-the-new-toyota-su-1787377881
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/...uture-plans-says-half-its-cars-will-be-hybrid
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/ferrari-plans-hybrid-models-and-new-common-architecture
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/news/a29182/nissan-r36-gt-r-hybrid/
How are you not privy to this?
Hybrid performance car technology simply makes sense with the caveat that materials get lighter, especially battery technology.
Tesla is making great strides on the battery front while carbon fiber and 3D printing advancements work on the weight.
What I want is a car that can do a 2.8 second 0-60 and 10 second quarter mile in sport mode while getting 50 MPG is echo mode all for ~$100,000. The NSX is a necessary step in the chain of events leading to that car.
Tesla is making great strides on the battery front while carbon fiber and 3D printing advancements work on the weight.
What I want is a car that can do a 2.8 second 0-60 and 10 second quarter mile in sport mode while getting 50 MPG is echo mode all for ~$100,000. The NSX is a necessary step in the chain of events leading to that car.
It seems logical that as far as likely improvements are concerned the easiest for Honda to upgrade will be a higher capacity battery, more powerful electric motors, reprogrammed ECU, lighter bucket seats (and other weight reduction mods), better aero, additional safety features (lane assist, radar cruise control, etc), and possibly a plug-in function.
If they modify the ICE I believe they have to get it recertified for emissions etc that will cost money in a financially zero return, loss leader, low volume car.
I'm not sure if the GT3 will get a green light for a street edition. Anyone know if it has?
I'm not sure how likely an all ICE version will be. That seems against the company's corporate goals.
If they modify the ICE I believe they have to get it recertified for emissions etc that will cost money in a financially zero return, loss leader, low volume car.
I'm not sure if the GT3 will get a green light for a street edition. Anyone know if it has?
I'm not sure how likely an all ICE version will be. That seems against the company's corporate goals.
Too bad. The Tesla 100D just did a 2.5 second 0-60 with 4 freakin doors. That is really RIDICULOUS!!!!
Only a little though as this is not something it does over and over. This is why hybrid performance cars need to catch on. I want massive off the line electric torque but I want it more than once and I want the sound of a real ICE.
I agree. Tesla says battery percentage needs to be 95% or higher to perform this 2.5 second launch. But that is freaking amazing either way for a 4 door sedan!!!! Somehow I feel the era of combustion engines are on the decline and the new nsx is proof of that. I only wish Honda really brought some heat. But either way, I think the new nsx knocks the looks and several other things out of the park. They are just a little late to the game. They will refine and catch up I think though...Honda basically did everything well in my opinion. Much unlike the Nissan GT-R where they made a super quick car with fugly looks, mediocre interior, and no soul paying homage to the older drifting gtr's.
I look forward to Honda's next step....
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I'd imagine the cost of getting the engine re-certified is peanuts compared to the money spent on the NSX program and the PMC factory. I would think Honda is willing to spend money to keep the NSX competitive. Nissan updates the GT-R's engine every 2 years or so. Audi also did it with the R8.
To me, Honda spent so much on the ICE and even had Cosworth involved with it. I'd imagine that engine's got great potential for future growth.
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How drastically would the chassis dynamics change with ICE only since weight distribution will be affected heavily.
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Shouldn't be that drastic, probably not much change in weight distribution actually. The front motors ain't huge and the battery pack is closer to the rear axle. There are radiators at the very front of the car, not sure if any is responsible for the hybrid system cooling which is another variable to consider.
Attachments
This might be a fun read for some of you folks. Including how the brake pedal simulates all that "feel".
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/7-fascinating-technical-facts-about-the-2017-honda-nsx/
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/7-fascinating-technical-facts-about-the-2017-honda-nsx/
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