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Lightweight ICE-Only Variant or A More Powerful Type-R

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5 October 2016
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Assuming that Honda is willing to pour addition R&D money into the NSX platform and that the factory has enough capacity to produce them, which will you be more interested?

A lightweight variant with internal combustion engine power only and rwd

Maybe even with a manual transmission as an option. Removing the hybrid system will easily save a few hundred pounds. Focusing on a more traditional mid-engine driving experience rather than outright performance can perhaps find a niche in the market at a lower price point.

Inevitably, that NSX-lite will draw comparison to the new Ford GT which will cost a lot more and the possible mid-engine Corvette which may never happen. The AMG GT and Carrera S are probably more likely competitors both in terms of price and performance.

A More Powerful Type-R

Perhaps with 600hp from ICE and another 200hp from EV motors for a combined system power of 720-750hp? Also, make it a PHEV?

Traditionally the NSX Type R focused more on weight saving rather than power, but this is the new NSX with a new design philosophy after all. Will Honda be able to source and incorporate more powerful motors and higher capacity batteries into the existing design? The current battery is a puny 1.3kwh unit.

While there are plenty of initial order to be filled, if Honda/Acura intends to keep the NSX around in the years to come. Hopefully they will do something to spice things up.
 
I think it would be silly and misguided to produce an ICE-only street car on the NSX platform.

I think it is reasonable to assume that there is headroom in BOTH the Turbo V6 and the Electrics to boost output enough to support a "Type R" variant. Frankly, software alone could probably yield a 10% boost in total system output, perhaps coupled with moderately beefed up cooling and a slightly higher capacity battery just to make the performance more sustainable.

I think getting to 750HP in a reliable street car (that would handle the track abuse that a "Type R" positioning would invite) in current packaging would be a challenge and not something we should expect.
 
I think it would be silly and misguided to produce an ICE-only street car on the NSX platform.

I think it is reasonable to assume that there is headroom in BOTH the Turbo V6 and the Electrics to boost output enough to support a "Type R" variant. Frankly, software alone could probably yield a 10% boost in total system output, perhaps coupled with moderately beefed up cooling and a slightly higher capacity battery just to make the performance more sustainable.

don't you think more beefiness would add more heftiness?
 
Pretty sure whatever direction they go, fastaussie will tell us how much it sucks. ;)
 
I think it would be silly and misguided to produce an ICE-only street car on the NSX platform.

Why would it be silly? Porsche offers some 20+ variants of the 911. Surely there is room in the market for both an ICE-only NSX-lite as well as a more powerful Type-S/R variant.

I think getting to 750HP in a reliable street car (that would handle the track abuse that a "Type R" positioning would invite) in current packaging would be a challenge and not something we should expect.

While I am not very optimistic about this happening, there should be room for a higher capacity battery.

The space for existing IPU & PDU unit should allow for a 4-7 kWh battery setup in a T-shape configuration, with perhaps a bit of the electronics relocated to the "frunk" area. That should allow for higher output EV motor to be used.
 
don't you think more beefiness would add more heftiness?

No. I'll talking about perhaps a upgraded radiator, if needed, and maybe 50 pounds more battery. Easily recouped by weight reduction elsewhere. Again, software doesn't weigh anything, and I am sure there is more power available via ICE and EV "tuning" (prob already exists; just need to reclaim some safety margin). Based on a couple of 95-100deg track days, it seems that the NSX cooling might be able to handle more power with zero additional weight.
 
Assuming that Honda is willing to pour addition R&D money into the NSX platform and that the factory has enough capacity to produce them, which will you be more interested?

A lightweight variant with internal combustion engine power only and rwd

Maybe even with a manual transmission as an option. Removing the hybrid system will easily save a few hundred pounds. Focusing on a more traditional mid-engine driving experience rather than outright performance can perhaps find a niche in the market at a lower price point.

Inevitably, that NSX-lite will draw comparison to the new Ford GT which will cost a lot more and the possible mid-engine Corvette which may never happen. The AMG GT and Carrera S are probably more likely competitors both in terms of price and performance.

A More Powerful Type-R

Perhaps with 600hp from ICE and another 200hp from EV motors for a combined system power of 720-750hp? Also, make it a PHEV?

Traditionally the NSX Type R focused more on weight saving rather than power, but this is the new NSX with a new design philosophy after all. Will Honda be able to source and incorporate more powerful motors and higher capacity batteries into the existing design? The current battery is a puny 1.3kwh unit.

While there are plenty of initial order to be filled, if Honda/Acura intends to keep the NSX around in the years to come. Hopefully they will do something to spice things up.

I would be interested in the RWD ICE only version of the car, 485HP-500HP at around 3200lbs and the options for steel rotors and I would be very happy. Add an option for a harness compatible bucket seats and pre determined location for a harness bar and I would write a deposit check for the car in an instant.

I can afford the NSX2.0 but have absolutely zero desire of ever owning the Hybrid SH-AWD version of the car.
 
Why would it be silly? Porsche offers some 20+ variants of the 911. Surely there is room in the market for both an ICE-only NSX-lite as well as a more powerful Type-S/R variant.

Because the car's whole design is premised on a hybrid drivetrain. Scrapping that would be like trying to make a better cow out of a horse. The Porsche analogy is a bad one. Honda is not in the high-end sports car business. They want a technology showcase to help sell MDXs and Accords, not a minimalist track toy.
 
Pretty sure whatever direction they go, fastaussie will tell us how much it sucks. ;)

negative. you're such a Debbie Downer mate, seriously... :frown:

I would be interested in the RWD ICE only version of the car, 485HP-500HP at around 3200lbs and the options for steel rotors and I would be very happy. I would write a deposit check for the car in an instant.

I can afford the NSX2.0 but have absolutely zero desire of ever owning the Hybrid SH-AWD version of the car.

i'm with 2slow. although i'd say go for 550 horsepower and 2,900 lbs. they can even leave the price the same if they want...

The Porsche analogy is a bad one. Honda is not in the high-end sports car business. They want a technology showcase to help sell MDXs and Accords, not a minimalist track toy.

i would imagine that some people would love a Honda minimalist track toy...
 
I would be interested in the RWD ICE only version of the car, 485HP-500HP at around 3200lbs and the options for steel rotors and I would be very happy. Add an option for a harness compatible bucket seats and pre determined location for a harness bar and I would write a deposit check for the car in an instant.

I can afford the NSX2.0 but have absolutely zero desire of ever owning the Hybrid SH-AWD version of the car.

Here you go. I threw in some extra HP for you:

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I would imagine that some people would love a Honda minimalist track toy...

So would I, but it's not the NSX. Maybe they should build the "Acura S2000 GT Type R" or something. That'd be cool. I'm just saying you don't start with a horse if you seek the perfect cow. Also, the R&D investment in a "Better 570S" is not as transferable to the rest of Honda's product line. Still, it would be cool.
 

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Here you go. I threw in some extra HP for you:

attachment.php

now we're talking, where can i buy one?

but i'll take mine with a big "H" on the front please... :wink:

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Why would it be silly? Porsche offers some 20+ variants of the 911. Surely there is room in the market for both an ICE-only NSX-lite as well as a more powerful Type-S/R variant.

Because the car's whole design is premised on a hybrid drivetrain. Scrapping that would be like trying to make a better cow out of a horse. The Porsche analogy is a bad one. Honda is not in the high-end sports car business. They want a technology showcase to help sell MDXs and Accords, not a minimalist track toy.

i don't feel this is such a terrible idea, although certainly not as easy as just pulling all the non-ICE equipment out and calling it a day. but i do reckon a 500 to 600 horsepower, 3,000 lbs. NSX would be a huge seller.

Lamborghini, Porsche, and McLaren have all scaled back their full strength models to make a more pure, focused and fun car. so in all seriousness, why couldn't/shouldn't Honda?
 
Here you go. I threw in some extra HP for you:

attachment.php

I am no longer in the SF Bay Area but I do know Alessandro at the McLaren dealership in Palo Alto and had some discussions with him last year about the 570S when I saw the demo car.

No McLaren dealership in the state of Colorado where I have my house in the US, and I'm not sure how things will pan out here in Japan where I will be spending substantial time in.

BTW: I was invited to the original McLaren MP4-12C launch at the Quail Lodge, so been following the brand for quite some time...
 
Because the car's whole design is premised on a hybrid drivetrain.
From http://nsx.acura.com/explore/gt3
THE NSX GT3 RACECAR WAS ALWAYS PART OF THE PLAN. When the second-generation NSX was approved for development, its engineers put pen to paper with racing in mind. The production car and its GT3 sibling were created in tandem with a shared vision: a sophisticated supercar with bare-knuckles racing chops.

The GT3 has largely the same frame and engine as the NC1 but with
rear wheel drive, six speed transmission, and none of the hybrid stuff.
 
I'm a waitin for the pseudo R version.....
 
Here you go. I threw in some extra HP for you:

Actually I had this in mind, also British. Pictured below is the older GTE, which I think looks way prettier than the Evora 400.

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i don't feel this is such a terrible idea, although certainly not as easy as just pulling all the non-ICE equipment out and calling it a day. but i do reckon a 500 to 600 horsepower, 3,000 lbs. NSX would be a huge seller.

Realistically I was thinking more like 3,400 lbs without using exotic materials to keep the price low. No idea how much the hybrid system weights, maybe 400-500 lbs? Assuming an active rear diff is used, that will add another 50-80 lbs back?

Anywhere between 500 to 600hp is fine. At 500hp, one would expect minimal turbo lags. With more power, perhaps a narrower and less linear powerband is acceptable?
 

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Realistically I was thinking more like 3,400 lbs without using exotic materials to keep the price low. No idea how much the hybrid system weights, maybe 400-500 lbs? Assuming an active rear diff is used, that will add another 50-80 lbs back?

Anywhere between 500 to 600hp is fine. At 500hp, one would expect minimal turbo lags. With more power, perhaps a narrower and less linear powerband is acceptable?

i can dig it. closer to 3,000 lbs. is a better direction than 4,000 lbs.
 
ICE is fine as is IMO, I want more electric torque.

I know its a long shot but if there ever is a battery upgrade I will be first in line.
 
Honda says the electric motors add 73hp. That's 54 kilowatts.
Motors are not 100% efficient, so the electronics are supplying
somewhat more than 54 kW of electrical power when used to
their full extent.

Parts in the inverters have current and voltage ratings,
the gauges of wires in the motors and cables are chosen to be
adequate for the purpose, and so on. One designs electronics with
a safety margin, but overbuilding substantially beyond that comes
at the cost of size, weight, heat dissipation needs, and expense.

Honda was conscious of how much weight and expense the hybrid
system was adding and I imagine they tried to run a pretty tight ship.
I don't think there's a lot of headroom in the system waiting to be
exploited. I could be wrong, but I'm skeptical that just a software
change or just a battery upgrade would suffice to get substantially
more power out of the electric motors in an NSX.
 
It's the same hp output as the RLX SH-AWD. I think Honda is just being safe at the moment as the RLX has tested the reliability first. Expect improvements over the years.
 
Honda was conscious of how much weight and expense the hybrid system was adding and I imagine they tried to run a pretty tight ship.
I don't think there's a lot of headroom in the system waiting to be exploited. I could be wrong, but I'm skeptical that just a software change or just a battery upgrade would suffice to get substantially more power out of the electric motors in an NSX.

Indeed it would be interesting to know how the 'current' design parameters were balanced (no pun intended). One thing for sure, the car and battery manufacturers are putting huge R & D into energy storage density, and instantaneous current delivery capacity. This has certainly showed up with Tesla's recent new battery packs compared to what they were offering only a year or two ago. Honda like all the other manufacturers will be in boots and all to see those developments come to fruition for their own future plans for Hybrid & EV vehicles. I don't see that march slowing at all. Retrofitting the current NSX release with better batteries and inverters etc, - in my opinion not likely from Honda, but here may be an aftermarket niche for some smart cookies.
 
negative. you're such a Debbie Downer mate, seriously... :frown:


y...

Really? Do you read what you post? You are by far the most negative person on prime in regards of how bad the new car is. You seem to go out of your way to point out how bad you think it is. Seriously, mate.

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Because the car's whole design is premised on a hybrid drivetrain. Scrapping that would be like trying to make a better cow out of a horse. The Porsche analogy is a bad one. Honda is not in the high-end sports car business. They want a technology showcase to help sell MDXs and Accords, not a minimalist track toy.

The Honda engineers I talked to when they were driving the new NSX around the country pretty much said they will release a non hybrid version. I guess we will see. 3200lbs and 550hp would be pretty nice. :)
 
A lighter and "purer" version would be looking good *if* they can get the weight down enough. They would have to keep a correct front/rear bias though which seems tricky given they'd lose both front engines.. Is the exhaust titanium already ? Maybe with giving up the A/C and amenities...
 
Retrofitting the current NSX release with better batteries and inverters etc, - in my opinion not likely from Honda, but here may be an aftermarket niche for some smart cookies.

Tesla does offer battery upgrades on their vehicles, even for the Roadster that they no longer produce.

I don't quite expect the same from Honda and the battery isn't the only module that needs to be upgraded for a significant performance gain. I would say forget about the rear electric motor that's pancaked in. Focus on retrofitting in a set of more powerful front motors, but that will require a lot of time, money and testing to get the computer calibration right.
 
If you were at Honda and had just spent millions developing an NSX with a new technology to be built in a new factory, why would you start again with another NSX with a conventional NA engine and lighter weight.
Honda clearly had a choice to build an updated mid-engined car along the lines of the current crop of Lambos, R8's, Mclaren's etc. but chose to go a different direction.
I'd suggest they'll now spend time developing the new drive system to further differentiate themselves from their more conventional competitors.

Of course there is some demand for a conventional NSX with ICE only power and lighter weight.
And Honda may offer that option in a 4 or 6 cylinder turbo scaled down version at some point.
But they will be sensitive to cannibalism of a light version against their new tech hybrid NSX so would not expect a ICE only car to perform like the NSX.

The NSX team had to lock the variables at some point in the car's development and chose to do so bench marking the 458 and last generation R8 etc.
The new NSX is competitive with those models.
Of course the competitors knew the NSX was coming so they developed their own new faster versions of their cars to fend off the NSX.

Does anyone think the Honda engineers did not allow for an increase in performance of the new NSX in the future?
Does anyone think the 3.5 litre turbo is maxed out or the electric motors are at maximum size?
Of course not and I'd expect they're busy working on the next performance increase as we speak.
In fact I'd be surprised if they didn't have several different maps for the ICE on the shelf right now.

A company like Honda isn't going down the road of a new driveline technology with having thought out it's evolution over time.
So while it's fun to talk about a light, ICE only NSX I doubt it will see the light of day anytime soon.
 
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