Motion Control Suspension (MCS) for NSX

[Mac Attack]

@mwagner10702 Like the new calipers! What brake ducts are those please? Sorry for the OT.

 

[mwagner10702]

@mwagner10702 Like the new calipers! What brake ducts are those please? Sorry for the OT.

They are an early Downforce design. A newer (non CF) design is available from Science of Speed. Quite effective on the track. My caliper temps never went above 270 degrees. I think the Stoptech BBK has something to do with that as it has a lot of thermal capacity.

Front Brake Air Deflectors, pair (FRP) - NSX, 1991-05 (DF-AAA195FB)

Front Brake Air Deflectors, pair (FRP) - NSX, 1991-05 (DF-AAA195FB) In our experience, the Downforce Front Brake Air Deflector is one of the most effective means of improving brake durability and life when tracking your NSX. The Front Brake Air Deflector

www.scienceofspeed.com

 

[Honcho]

OK - here is where I am confused. I don't see how it is possible for the lower perch (adjusting rings) to contact the upper control arm. They move in tandem. Here is mine along with a video. This is with a 6" front spring. Damper body is 12.5" long.

EDIT:
After thinking about it and staring at the pictures I can totally see that if your damper body is less than 12 inches long I can see where you could have a clearance problem.

I think extending your front damper length should accomplish what you need. I'd worry a 5" spring might be too short and you might get coil bind under extreme compression.

Also looks like I need to re-do my undercoating . . .

Mark-

I GREATLY appreciate your assistance and insight here. I'm going to give the fronts another go. I think the issue is that the rears were so low that we couldn't lower the fronts enough to at least even the rake without hitting the UCA. Now that the rears are properly leveled on the NSX-R shocks, I can see if the fronts will be able to hit the 175 mm height spec without changes to the shock body. If possible, can you measure the ride height to the center of the lower control arm bolt like in the manual?

I'm curious as to where you're at, since your perches are lowered 2" off of the top threads. It must be close to 175 mm because the distance from the bottom of the rim (16") to the fender on the NSX-R front shock is 22.25". If your 17" wheel is sitting at 22" even, subtracting the 0.5" difference in radius put you at 21.5" if you had a 16" wheel. That's a difference of 0.75" or 19 mm, so your LCA bolt center should be around 156 mm. If this is right, there is more than that amount of adjustment in the front perches without hitting the UCA and you are right.

My front shock length (body only) is 12" and the rear shock length is 11". It's odd that my front shock is 0.5" shorter than yours...that might make the difference.

While I'm sure you were disappointed about this obstacle right at the last minute when you're close to driving the car after a few years, these custom fitments typically take some iterations to work out. After Mark, are you only the second person running these? MCS is high quality and the OR shop has a good reputation so I'm sure you'll get this straightened out soon.

I went through the same thing working out customized fitments for my desired goals and the unique restraints with the NSX suspension design. Just takes some patience and iterating. Since I wasn't local on my build, I think we mailed a few dummy setups across the country about 5-6 times! Sucked at the time but it was ultimately worth it!

Thanks! Yeah, These will have to go back to MCS to be lengthened and I totally get it is part of the aftermarket process. You're absolutely right that my main frustration was that this was something that I assumed was correct, so when it held up my first drive after 5 years of blood sweat and tears, I lost it. I am the third person running these, I believe, after Mark and @bogle. Martin and AR are a good shop and I have no doubt we'll get it right.

I think I may try to increase rear shock length by 50 mm and the fronts by 12 mm. I bet that gets me where I need to be. But first, the car has to be smogged and aligned. I won't be able to play with the suspension for a while.

 

[mwagner10702]

If possible, can you measure the ride height to the center of the lower control arm bolt like in the manual?

@Honcho - Hi Paul, here are my measurements per the Honda manual:

FRONT = 5 .75" (146mm)
REAR = 7.25" (184mm)

Mark

 

[Honcho]

@Honcho - Hi Paul, here are my measurements per the Honda manual:

FRONT = 5 .75" (146mm)
REAR = 7.25" (184mm)

Mark

Thank you! We are sending the shocks back to MCS for lengthening.

 

[docjohn]

work in progress...every use case is a learning one for MCS..

 

[stuntman]

Honcho,

Sorry to hear of all of your troubles. For S&G; what is your ride height measuring from the ground to the center of the (bottom) of the front and rear jack tabs on the frame rails?


Reposting this for relevance:

There are a lot of modern damper options that blow the NSX-R's damping technology out of the water. When having specific goals in mind, it's always best to choose a company that you have good support from to help you achieve your goals. Any dialed-in (valving and settings) MCS, Moton, JRZ, Ohlins, Penske, JRI, KW, Tractive, etc... will greatly outperform any of the others that are not properly valved or setup. The MCS guys are great and have a great product, I've used them and have been hired to set up many cars with them. It's great to hear you are getting sorted out.

As far as entry oversteer goes. Unless you're running close to OEM ride height and/or a very stiff front swaybar and front spring rates, you can quickly find excessive entry oversteer the more you start carrying more speed into corners and trailbrake. This is a geometry issue with the NSX that i'm eventually going to address (but it'll be expensive). I think your path of NSX-R spring rates is a good one. You should be pretty happy with your setup once the dampers are set up.

When it comes to custom MCS/JRZ/Penske/etc... it's really important that the person specifying the design of the damper (in addition to the damper curves) to know the NSX's bump travel and rebound needs. Having too much compression travel will cause the front tire to bottom out into the chassis/fender liner, while not enough droop travel can cause a loss of traction and unpredictable handling.

 

[Honcho]

Honcho,

Sorry to hear of all of your troubles. For S&G; what is your ride height measuring from the ground to the center of the (bottom) of the front and rear jack tabs on the frame rails?


Reposting this for relevance:

When it comes to custom MCS/JRZ/Penske/etc... it's really important that the person specifying the design of the damper (in addition to the damper curves) to know the NSX's bump travel and rebound needs. Having too much compression travel will cause the front tire to bottom out into the chassis/fender liner, while not enough droop travel can cause a loss of traction and unpredictable handling.

Thanks Billy. MCS is going to lengthen them and adjust bump travel to compensate. They claim you don't need bump stops with their setup. They have all the dimensions and drawings from @mwagner10702 's car, so I have some confidence that a top-tier suspension shop like them will make sure the setup is not dangerous. I'm ok with it, since I can drive around on the NSX-R while I am waiting, which is simply fantastic. I'll measure the frame rail heights on the R when I get home tonight.

 

[stuntman]

Thanks Billy. MCS is going to lengthen them and adjust bump travel to compensate. They claim you don't need bump stops with their setup. They have all the dimensions and drawings from @mwagner10702 's car, so I have some confidence that a top-tier suspension shop like them will make sure the setup is not dangerous. I'm ok with it, since I can drive around on the NSX-R while I am waiting, which is simply fantastic. I'll measure the frame rail heights on the R when I get home tonight.

Who at MCS said they don't need bump stops?

I look forward to seeing the NSXR jacking point heights.

 

[Honcho]

Who at MCS said they don't need bump stops?

I look forward to seeing the NSXR jacking point heights.

It's the vendor (I asked too when I ordered), but I'm sure you can call Wyatt at MCS to confirm.

On my very not-level garage floor slabs (LOL) the front is 4 3/8" (111 mm) and the rear is 4 1/2" (114 mm). Measuring from the floor to the bottom of the frame rail jacking tab (lowest point).

 

[mwagner10702]

None appear on their cutaway diagram. My 2WR dampers do not have an external bump stop.

 

[stuntman]

It's the vendor (I asked too when I ordered), but I'm sure you can call Wyatt at MCS to confirm.

On my very not-level garage floor slabs (LOL) the front is 4 3/8" (111 mm) and the rear is 4 1/2" (114 mm). Measuring from the floor to the bottom of the frame rail jacking tab (lowest point).

Thanks for the heights. It's good to know the NSX-R runs 1/8" of rake.

Bumpstops are very important for any suspension. They are used to limit the compression travel to avoid either the valve from bottoming out internally in the damper and damaging it, avoid the chassis from hitting the ground, from reaching the point where the control arms bind due to range of motion limitations, or in the case of the NSX, preventing the top of the front tire from slamming into the wheel well and locking the tire up. Bump stops are also used as tuning devices to add spring rate to reduce roll and pitch at higher levels of racing.

As I reposted in Post #132, when it comes to selecting a damper, it's best to choose a brand (or shop) that supports you and who has knowledge and experience with a specific platform -or at least does their homework with a lot of measuring. Anyone can slap together a rod and damper body and make a coilover, but no matter what brand it is, or how expensive it is, it will rarely perform better than even a "cheap" brand that was properly designed for a given platform, with knowledge of the valving, droop and compression requirements (and bump stops).

On that note, it might be best to just replicate the eye to eye, and damper body lengths of the KW V3, and put a bumpstop in it.

View attachment 177176Unless the bump stops are internal to the MCS dampers then there aren't any and none appear on their cutaway diagram. My 2WR dampers do not have an external bump stops.

That diagram is just the damper and does not have springs, spring perches, top hats, helper springs, etc...

 

[RYU]

If you like the R Showas why not just keep those?

Also, I run bumpstops out front. Without them tire makes contact with frame on the bottom off the corkscrew

 

[Honcho]

If you like the R Showas why not just keep those?

Also, I run bumpstops out front. Without them tire makes contact with frame on the bottom off the corkscrew

I love the NSX-R Showas- I've always been a fan of that setup. I don't think they ride nearly as harsh as others do. But, scarcity and lack of replacement or repair options as Honda slowly shuts off the parts chain made me decide to go with the MCS. Having a US-based company who can service/rebuild is key for me. I just had a nice long talk with Wyatt at MCS about my ride height needs and he was extremely helpful. The shocks are in Atlanta getting revised as we speak. So, it's already paying off from that perspective. Also, damper technology has come a long way from the 1990s, when Honda was developing the R. MCS said that while those Showas are really fantastic from a valving perspective (especially in their time), any modern motorsports damper (MCS, JRZ, KW, Penske, etc) is just going to be better across the board: vastly lighter, more responsive, more compliant over road imperfections, more resistant to heat fade, etc. I know you know this though, since you have those killer JRZ double-adjustable.

 

[Honcho]

Just to close the loop on this, the revised shocks have been installed and my initial impression is very, very positive. It was nice to drive the same road home in the MCS that I drove to the shop on the NSX-R because I could compare ride quality fairly close in time. The short version: under any road condition, the MCS is better. It's clear they did a lot of work on the blow off design in the piston because all unwanted road imperfections, no matter how big, just get soaked up. I hit a manhole cover recessed about 2" into the pavement and while there was a large BANG, the car stayed composed. With the NSX-R, it caused the car to jump sideways because the suspension was so rigid. Obviously race track performance is very different from road manners, but I suspect the MCS will be at least as good as the R.

Just a quick note that I chose to use JRZ bump stops and dust boots at all 4 corners. I had to trim the boots to fit and messed up on the rears a little- they are about 10mm too short! But still, the bump stops don't interfere with the suspension.

 

[mwagner10702]

Who at MCS said they don't need bump stops?

Here is Wyatt's response:

In almost all cases, we do not build an interference damper. This means the entire shaft can be compressed in the damper. Utilizing all of the damper stroke would not result in any internal damage to the damper. With that said, realizing full use of the stroke is nearly impossible as you would almost always coil bind your springs before running out of damper stroke.

Bump stops are a very valuable tuning tool in motorsport, and in OE or OE replacement type systems, used to prevent a hard stop in your suspension travel. They are always recommended but due to the fact that we manufacture naked struts and shocks and do not provide turnkey coilover systems with specified ride height ranges, we do not include bump stops with our naked dampers. Ride height, wheel and tire size, spring rates, and other variables heavily influence bump stop engagement.

 

[Honcho]

Here is Wyatt's response:

In almost all cases, we do not build an interference damper. This means the entire shaft can be compressed in the damper. Utilizing all of the damper stroke would not result in any internal damage to the damper. With that said, realizing full use of the stroke is nearly impossible as you would almost always coil bind your springs before running out of damper stroke.

Bump stops are a very valuable tuning tool in motorsport, and in OE or OE replacement type systems, used to prevent a hard stop in your suspension travel. They are always recommended but due to the fact that we manufacture naked struts and shocks and do not provide turnkey coilover systems with specified ride height ranges, we do not include bump stops with our naked dampers. Ride height, wheel and tire size, spring rates, and other variables heavily influence bump stop engagement.

The only reason I chose to use bump stops is to prevent the tire (mostly concerned about the fronts) from contacting the inner fender under high compression load (like at the bottom of the corkscrew at Laguna Seca.) @RYU I see you bud I realize this is a highly unlikely event, but considering the time, money and effort I put into restoring the car, I'd rather have a zero risk than a 1% risk. I realize the MCS dampers themselves are designed to never bottom out- it's about body contact with the tire. Even with the bump stops, the MCS shafts have plenty of droop travel- nearly the full compression length of the spring.

 

[RYU]

The only reason I chose to use bump stops is to prevent the tire (mostly concerned about the fronts) from contacting the inner fender under high compression load (like at the bottom of the corkscrew at Laguna Seca.) @RYU I see you bud I realize this is a highly unlikely event, but considering the time, money and effort I put into restoring the car, I'd rather have a zero risk than a 1% risk. I realize the MCS dampers themselves are designed to never bottom out- it's about body contact with the tire. Even with the bump stops, the MCS shafts have plenty of droop travel- nearly the full compression length of the spring.

In reality though, I see what MCS is saying, but in my case, it would first bottom out the wheel on the frame before the spring binded... This is partly because of the air cups I'm using and that setup forces a particular spring/helper combo. Bump stops was the easiest and most straightforward way to go.