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MotorTrend: The Hyper Car BluePrint

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16 November 2009
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145
[h=1]The Hypercar Blueprint[/h] [h=2]How did four automakers with legendary racing pedigrees all arrive at the same formula for the next-generation hypercar?
[/h]
In Biology 101, the wings of bats and birds and the eyes of humans and squid often are used as examples of convergent evolution -- essentially, when organisms arrive at the same result via different developmental paths. In the realm of hypercars—those rarefied vehicles that exist in the plane above mere supercars -- we are at a particularly interesting point of convergence. By 2015, hypercars from Acura, Ferrari, McLaren, and Porsche should be roaming the roads and racetracks of this world, redefining what we consider fast and efficient. These vehicles will do so using a very similar formula: a gas/electric hybrid powertrain mid-mounted in a chassis composed of exotic materials, driving the wheels through a dual-clutch transmission. How did we all converge upon this point in time?

[h=3]2015 Acura NSX[/h][h=3][/h] Ohio's Crown Jewel: honda's halo Moves from Suzuka to…the Buckeye State?
By: Benson Kong Ohio, United States
Base Price: $140,000
Weight to power: 6.0lb/hp
0-62 mph: 3.2 sec
Every driving enthusiast knows the 1991-2005 Acura/Honda NSX's legacy is large and legendary. That legacy is inescapable if you're tasked with bringing the next NSX to market. Now imagine you're Ted Klaus, a 22-year Acura/Honda veteran with tremendous experience working on chassis and vehicle dynamics, stability control, and all-wheel-drive integration. He's been named the Large Project Leader (essentially chief engineer) for the new-generation NSX, and his American engineering and assembly team have orders to give the revived supercar an AWD hybrid powertrain. The purists' outrage is palpable. What's a guy like Ted going to do? "The 1st thing you do is you go and talk to the people that were there and developed [the original NSX]," Klaus says. "I went and took the entire development team, and we met and spoke with Uehara-san [Shigeru Uehara, the first NSX's LPL] and some of his colleagues in Motegi, at their annual [NSX] fiesta. You learn what was on their mind. You learn about what NSX means and how to carry that on. To get to the essence of what the NSX was, and should always be, was really critical to me." So it won't be exactly the same as the 1991 car, but the underlying spirit remains. NSX, as Klaus asserts, "didn't stand for aluminum-bodied, mid-engined V-6. It's an experimental interpretation of what a sports car should be."


The possibilities are fascinating. Within 2 years, the labors of Klaus, associate chief engineer Clement D'Souza, and the development and assembly team should bear fruit. The high-performance two-seater will be fitted with a mid-mounted V-6, likely twin-turbocharged in light of Honda's decision to rejoin the Formula 1 fraternity as a turbo engine supplier in 2015, spinning the rear wheels with help from three electric motors -- one coupled to the seven-speed twin-clutch automatic transmission and one powering each front wheel. The combined system should produce an estimated 560 hp. Ensuring the car elicits a "vivid response" from the driver, and being extra mindful of the human-to-machine connection, are top priorities. Given Klaus' background in AWD integration, he is understandably enthusiastic about the Sport Hybrid Super Handling-All Wheel Drive. "It can be proactive and it can predictively respond," he notes, admitting that the challenge is making that response feel natural. "We feel with our experience with SH-AWD, we can meet the challenge to have it be direct and linear." Sounds like the original NSX. How did Acura, Ferrari, McLaren, and Porsche arrive at a similar conclusion of what a hypercar should be? "All carmakers who want to deliver what we call 'timeless sports car values' at a very high level are seeking a new way to deliver those values -- to deliver a new driving experience. So certainly, I don't know how they've arrived at them all at similar times, but inside Honda, NSX stands for New Sports eXperimental. So this is our method to deliver this new sports car experience. " - Ted Klaus, Acura NSX large project leader
[h=3]The New NSX's Long, Tortuous Journey[/h] July 2005
After 15 model years, Honda schedules NSX production to conclude at year's end. Eventual total U.S. NSX sales: 8999 units. January 2007
Acura's Advanced Sports Car Concept debuts at the Detroit auto show. The front-engine, V-10-powered coupe (with SH-AWD) was hailed as the new NSX. December 2008
NSX project is cancelled because of global economic conditions. December 2009
Honda declares the ASCC-based HSV-010 GT will campaign in the Super GT racing series with a V-8 and RWD. September 2011
Mystery Acura convertible sports car is spotted on "The Avengers" movie set. December 2011
After months of rumors, an NSX concept is revealed to journalists in Las Vegas. January 2012
NSX concept 1.0 unveiled at Detroit auto show. January 2013
NSX concept 2.0 -- wider, lower, and finally with an interior -- makes an appearance at the Detroit auto show. May 2013
$70-million Performance Manufacturing Center in Marysville, Ohio, is announced as future NSX home site.

 
sounding more promising....
 
If that is not plagiarized.......very clever!
 
So there it is:

Twin turbo
560 HP
3360 pounds
140K+

Sounds good to me!
 
So thats the same HP numbers as the GTR but what is the weight comparison
 
If they're going to turbo it, it better have more than 450 to the crank. They can almost get that number out of NA.
 
I want a manual trans!
 
I don't understand why they would be reluctant to turning up the HP per liter with a N/A engine since that used to be their specialty and they have the torque down low in the electric motors. If they replicated what they achieved with the S2000 at 120 HP/liter and went with a 3.8 liter they would have 450+ "at the crank". Another 110 from the three electric motors seems conservative. They could easily achieve 575 HP with plenty of torque through the range. Are they concerned with reliability? Have there been reliability issues with the S2000? This is not the time for Honda/Acura to play it safe IMO.
 
I don't understand why they would be reluctant to turning up the HP per liter with a N/A engine since that used to be their specialty and they have the torque down low in the electric motors. If they replicated what they achieved with the S2000 at 120 HP/liter and went with a 3.8 liter they would have 450+ "at the crank". Another 110 from the three electric motors seems conservative. They could easily achieve 575 HP with plenty of torque through the range. Are they concerned with reliability? Have there been reliability issues with the S2000? This is not the time for Honda/Acura to play it safe IMO.

All that electric power will require big batteries to give you the juice when you need it. Might it be better to leave the electric power just for moving off at traffic lights/inner city running and have "normal" boosted performance everywhere else, with a smaller [less weight] battery to lug around?
 
I believe that is exactly what they are planning. Check out the battery packs on LaFerrari's HY-KERS system. They weigh 132 lbs. and the whole HY-KERS system including the batteries weighs just 309 lbs. while pumping out 163 HP and gobs of torque. If Honda is looking to have the electric motors contribute only 120HP, then the batteries would not even need to weigh that much. Keeping the ratios the same, Honda's HY-KERS would only need to weigh 230 lbs. Of course this is assuming quite a bit. But at least it is based on what others have actually done. Is 230 lbs. too much for that benefit (plus 4WD)?
 
LOL MT hasn't ever been right on anything with the NSX and has always just speculated. Biggest flaw in the estimate is the HP and 0-60 times. 560hp with turbo is pure speculation as it's pretty much the same as the current 458 and gives it similar 0-60. MT isn't giving Honda any credit for it's new tech just making it "as fast as current dated cars that will be being replaced at the time the NSX debuts putting it behind the curve. Why everyone keeps thinking that Honda needs a turbo to compete is beyond me.
 
I don't understand why they would be reluctant to turning up the HP per liter with a N/A engine since that used to be their specialty and they have the torque down low in the electric motors. If they replicated what they achieved with the S2000 at 120 HP/liter and went with a 3.8 liter they would have 450+ "at the crank". Another 110 from the three electric motors seems conservative. They could easily achieve 575 HP with plenty of torque through the range. Are they concerned with reliability? Have there been reliability issues with the S2000? This is not the time for Honda/Acura to play it safe IMO.

I think one of the problems for Honda at the moment is they don't have a short stroke V6. To get 120+ hp/liter you need rpm and the 60 degree V6's they've got are all long stroke engine so high rpm is out. If they shorten the stoke on their current 3.7L to the same ratio as our C30/32 they only get about 3.1L.

They would have to increase the bore to something similar to the Porsche 3.8L but I don't know if they have enough room in the block to do that. The only other thing I can think of is in Japan where the new F1 engine is being developed they may have something under wraps. The F1 V6 is a 90 degree configuration though.

I was wondering if they might redo the C30/32 engine out to 3.8L. It's short stroke and could give them the rpm needed to make 120+ hp/liter. I think the GT3 Porsche engine is a 9000 rpm 125 hp/liter engine.

You are right if they could meld low end electric torque with high rpm power they would have a serious drive train.
 
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I think one of the problems for Honda at the moment is they don't have a short stroke V6. To get 120+ hp/liter you need rpm and the 60 degree V6's they've got are all long stroke engine so high rpm is out. If they shorten the stoke on their current 3.7L to the same ratio as our C30/32 they only get about 3.1L.

They would have to increase the bore to something similar to the Porsche 3.8L but I don't know if they have enough room in the block to do that. The only other thing I can think of is in Japan where the new F1 engine is being developed they may have something under wraps. The F1 V6 is a 90 degree configuration though.

I was wondering if they might redo the C30/32 engine out to 3.8L. It's short stroke and could give them the rpm needed to make 120+ hp/liter. I think the GT3 Porsche engine is a 9000 rpm 125 hp/liter engine.

You are right if they could meld low end electric torque with high rpm power they would have a serious drive train.
That's good insight. So it seems to me they have several options when it comes to the drivetrain depending on how much they are willing to invest and how innovative they want to be. 1) Expand the block on the C32 engine to 3.8 L and shoot for 125 HP/liter as you suggested and have the HY-KERS system add another 120HP, 2) Use the '97 NSX's C32 and add Direct Injection to get to 125 HP/liter or 400 HP and add a HY-KERS system like LaFerrari's to get to about 560 total HP, or 3) do something completely different like bring back an H-6 from their experience with their Valkyrie motorcycles (lower center of gravity and naturally balanced) or for that matter, bring back an I-6 from their experience with their CBX motorcycles, lay it on its side and develop a T-Drive (think Ford early '90s) which would also be lower center of gravity and naturally balanced. Klaus said we should expect to see several automotive firsts so why not? The V engines would need to be dry-sump to keep CG low but any of these options could develop 560+ HP without turbocharging. Regardless, I don't think they can solely rely on pulling something off the shelf if they are serious about producing a true Halo car.
 
That's good insight. So it seems to me they have several options when it comes to the drivetrain depending on how much they are willing to invest and how innovative they want to be. 1) Expand the block on the C32 engine to 3.8 L and shoot for 125 HP/liter as you suggested and have the HY-KERS system add another 120HP, 2) Use the '97 NSX's C32 and add Direct Injection to get to 125 HP/liter or 400 HP and add a HY-KERS system like LaFerrari's to get to about 560 total HP, or 3) do something completely different like bring back an H-6 from their experience with their Valkyrie motorcycles (lower center of gravity and naturally balanced) or for that matter, bring back an I-6 from their experience with their CBX motorcycles, lay it on its side and develop a T-Drive (think Ford early '90s) which would also be lower center of gravity and naturally balanced. Klaus said we should expect to see several automotive firsts so why not? The V engines would need to be dry-sump to keep CG low but any of these options could develop 560+ HP without turbocharging. Regardless, I don't think they can solely rely on pulling something off the shelf if they are serious about producing a true Halo car.

I don't think the C32 block can get much bigger in bore. The cylinders are already siamesed, so the whole block will need to be different if you want bigger bores. The C block is also really old. With modern design and structural analysis techniques (FEA), I'm sure they can optimize the structure a lot more than the C block so that it will not flex during high rpm and stay light. Direct injection will be in there for sure.
 
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