POTUS - the Wright stuff

[cojones]

working on the thread count :biggrin:

There's been a number (arguably too many) things said on this Chicago-area pastor (Rev Jeremiah Wright). This is not about the points, arguments, etc.

I heard an insightful comment on an early morning MSNBC news show, albeit one run by pro-red folks including a former FL congressman. It sort of goes like this (my paraphrasing)...

IF he (Rev Wright) is truly behind establishing and elevating the presence of the african-american agenda at the national level, why does he continue to torpedo the best candidate to ever come out of his ethnic background ?

Hmmmm.....

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More Food for thought (mine):

Regardless of the right/wrong/etc of the positions taken... this is an opportunity for certain candidate(s) to step act and act presidential. Time to step up, flex the Oval Office mojo, and put this guy away - shut him down once and for all.

IMO this is one of those "tests of leadership", and the strength and consistency of one's governance framework. One that we can't dance around, or sugarcoat with eloquent oratory, for much longer. Coz guess what -- he ain't the last one, and he's certainly not the hardest one.
Iran, North Korea, Taliban, et al -- the line to infamy is full of joker-dictarors already -- take a number.

The landscape is already full of weak wanna-be leaders... I don't think we need another one.

Note: my intent is invite opinions on leadership, governance and a management style we can get behind. Lets keep the discussions of faith/doctrine, ethnicity, gender, oratory, and even arguably the issues/positions - somewhere else :wink:

Discuss... :biggrin:

 

[docjohn]

I don't exactly get your point of what you want us to discuss From the above I can say two things,one ,Rev Wright excersises his 1st amendment rights often He has some radical views,which start to all sound the same.His style is born out of his observation of what makes an entertaining serman,and rallies his flock.On the other hand politics is about figuring out what to and not to say to the public to get the most votes.So put those things together and you get a good gestalt on the "controversy"

 

[cojones]

fair enough... lets add a few more

Is there really a separation between church and state ? Is it enforced ?


Is Wright going to be the "tipping point" for the O campaign? Granted there are many other real issues, but pretending that political gamesmanship is a surrogate for leadership puts one well on the path of the dark side

 

[docjohn]

Clearly the events of the last few days are placing more political importance on the obama relationship with the church.My take is that Early on in this campaign obama underestimated the impact and viral effects of the revs radical views.I do think his candidacy is tarnished because he had to know how radical Wrights' view of america was after 20 yrs He soft sold his denouncement early on and now finaly today he came down hard,,but 20 yrs So that is politics,we'll see how the next state primaries go.

 

[nsxotic911]

A few thoughts...

From what I understand, Rev Wright preaches a "theology" that is not uncommon in African American culture, albeit, may be a little more on the extreme. I've been to a "black church" a few times and I can say that there is resentment towards "white America.." Some of it well understood and deserved, sometimes racism...

Nonetheless, I'd venture to guess that this church is not really his church. It's probably his wifes and it made it difficult for Obama to distance himself. He's probably "like family" and they can't just shoot him. Plus, if he did, he'd lose that 80% of African American vote. Wright is well respected in the AA circles as is visible..

I don't buy the BS that he didn't know about the comments, just like he lied about the questionaire when he said "I didn't fill it out.." and when his notes were on there, "Well, just b/c I scribbled a note doesn't mean I authored it.." Unh hunh.. When handwritting analysis says there is a 90% likelyhood, what's he going to say?

Every churchgoard that attends regularly (as Obama did for a long time) understands very well their Pastor's views, though they may disagree with him, especially the controversial ones and the ones they disagree with. I can easily list what those are of my Pastor...

I think it was unwise for him politically to put him in his book though he can not denounce him 100% as he should b/c it would be upsetting the African American community. IMHO!

I don't buy Obama's Christianity one bit. His views (eg such as extreme abortion views), history, speeches on religion (all mushy washer on his website) and the fact that he is deemed to be extremely liberal is outside of what Christianity really is. I don't have a problem that he's liberal or the position he takes, but the fact that he is not truthful about his real position and pimps Christianity really bothers me. He is "Christian" because it is politically convenient. If this was Indonesia, he'd be Muslim, if it was India, Hindu, Britain... probably a die-hard Atheists. Whatever gets him the vote.... and I hope people vote for him b/c they agree with him on the issues, not because he is a smooth talking, "Messiah to All" preacher.

I consider Obama a smoother politician than even Bill Clinton. He is the kind of "politician," and the "Washington," that he speaks out against. I think the well informed and liberal left know his Christianity is BS, and just play along. 9 out of 10 times, real Christianity is generally attributed to the Right and Liberal Left always prounce on that but they are obviously not jumping on Obama b/c of his "Christian" views..

He even said "I came to Christianity while being a community organizer" and what better organization to team up with than a church. There sure aren't any (or many) Atheist Soup Kitchens that I know of...but you're going to have a hard time working with a church in the long run if you say you're an Atheists. Plus, he picks up much of the Christian African American vote automagically.

As for the questions:

Is there really a separation between church and state? Is it enforced ?
Yes, it is state against church. "Separation of church and state" came about in a Supreme Court ruling mainly spearheaded by a Justice that was Anti-Catholic and a KKK supporter. The language is not in the Constitution and imho unConstitutional.. The language in the Constituion is something to the effect of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.." When you look at the history behind this, you will find that the founders were speaking out against imposing a particular Christian denomination as was done in England, rather than blasting "religion" out of government and imposing a Atheistic state. The founders very much considered the nation to be a Christian nation, having drawn a lot of the Constitutional principles from the Bible.

Is Wright going to be the "tipping point" for the O campaign? Granted there are many other real issues, but pretending that political gamesmanship is a surrogate for leadership puts one well on the path of the dark side

Nawh, smart people will/should look at the issues. He hasn't even realy taken that much of a hit. Just because Wright is a bit of a looney, doesn't mean Obama is and I don't doubt one bit that he shares some of the views. He's too smart for that.

Nonetheless, I digress...

 

[myguitar]

McCain's pastor compared the Catholics to Nazis, stated that most Muslim Americans are anti-american and he said some other things that are just as bad or probably even worse than the things that Wright said. Wright is like many other black pastors who are critical of our country's poor record on racial relations and equality. That's just his way of pursuing social justice. McCain's pastor, on the other hand, seems to be an theologically uninformed right-wing rich white guy, much like all the Robertsons and Falwells out there.

Even after these things he said were brought into the spotlight, McCain still refuses to decline that endorsement and says "he's happy for the support". Funny how you don't hear about that guy as much as we hear about Wright though. First Obama was thought to be a secret Muslim, now I guess he's a wrong Christian.

It's all irrelevant. No one agrees with their pastor on everything so I think that neither one of these pastor's opinions will affect their candidate's presidency.

My .02

 

[nsxotic911]

McCain's pastor compared the Catholics to Nazis, stated that most Muslim Americans are anti-american and he said some other things that are just as bad or probably even worse than the things that Wright said. Wright is like many other black pastors who are critical of our country's poor record on racial relations and equality. That's just his way of pursuing social justice. McCain's pastor, on the other hand, seems to be an theologically uninformed right-wing rich white guy, much like all the Robertsons and Falwells out there.

Even after these things he said were brought into the spotlight, McCain still refuses to decline that endorsement and says "he's happy for the support". Funny how you don't hear about that guy as much as we hear about Wright though. First Obama was thought to be a secret Muslim, now I guess he's a wrong Christian.

It's all irrelevant. No one agrees with their pastor on everything so I think that neither one of these pastor's opinions will affect their candidate's presidency.

My .02

Hagge is not McCain's pastor and not someone he praised and dedicated his book to. McCain virtually never, if not absolutely never attended Hagge's church. I don't even know if he knew about the views... I think it was kinda foolish for him to accept it, but, whatever. I think he saw it as a way to get the Evangelical support but those informed I don't think will be swayed by it. They will either be ok with some of his social views, or not, and Hagge probably didn't do much. Nonetheless, from McCain pov, he thought he could gain some of that support...

McCain isn't anti-catholic, or anti-muslim or anti-anything. Just like I believe Obama is not anti-anything as well. However, the issue with Obama is not Wright's comments or his potential belief, but judgement. Questionable judgement to sit in a church for 15+ years, dedicate a book and place Wright as chair of his Spiritual Adviser... That is questionable judgement.

McCain is very straightforward about his belief. He does not pander to Christianity though he does believe in "Christian-Judeo morality" (which is pretty much the morality that most faiths subscribe to anway..)

When asked about his religion, he didn't say "I pray at least once a day, sometimes twice a day.." (as Obama did) or "I read the Bible all the time and hang out with Hagge" or "Jesus is my Savior" He instead told the story about the guard while he was a POW that would loosen the ropes and then painted a cross on the ground. He basically didn't answer the question. The best you can get out of it is that he respects and sees value in all faiths which is the truth. Trying to pigeon-hole him to Hagge's views just can't stick...

This is why the "Christian Right," generally, doesn't like him. That is also foolish, but it's the way McCain is. He doesn't sell himself to any particular group, he doesn't pander (well, not totally true.. this is politics), he is truly an Independent. As a result, he gets hit by both sides.

BTW: This is a very straightforward article/questions on Obama. It's not Obama bashing, it's just questions on the issues/history.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/134316