Scavenge pump BS ....again.

[MetalSpikeRacing]

Well, here we go again.
After switching to the PT6266 turbo from Garrett 40R, I decided to make a reservoir so the oil coming from the turbo has a bigger space to drain to.

Well, after starting the car today and letting it run for exactly ten minutes , that reservoir filled up with oil completely !!

See, I had problems with the 40R before until I sourced the right restrictor, but this time the PT turbo comes with a built in restrictor and i was told by the PT guys not to add any other restrictors or I may cause the turbo to fail.

So what is happening now, is that the new turbo's built in restrictor it's larger than what the 40R's restrictor used to be , a lot larger. Don't know by how much?PT wouldn't told me.

So to much oil is coming in and it seems like the pump it's not able to get that oil back into the pan fast enough and that is why the oil is backing up.

The reservoir specs are about 2"x2"x10" of squared aluminum, it bolts to the turbo in one end and has a -10 line that runs to the pump at the other end.
I have also run a vent line from the top of the of the reservoir and runs to the catch can lines coming from the valve cover(check pics)

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

Sorry forgot the pics:
What do you guys think?

 

[Mac Attack]

With that design, it looks like the scavenge pump could be sucking air. When you say it "completely" fills up, do you mean like 50% of the height (where the pump should be able to "suck" oil just fine without entraining air), or is it really 100% full?

I don't know what kind of pumps these are. Centrifugal or positive-displacement?

 

[kookoo4nsx]

Why do you need a reservior? The pump alone has the sucking ability to move 20x what the oil restrictor can throw at it.

I have only used the stock oil pump that Wil gave me with the kit and it has always worked perfectly. I don't think your pump is working. Remove it and test it using oil and see how long it takes to suck out a quart. You may also want to completely remove the reservior and try turbo to pump to pan connection only.


Also what is the purpose of the nipple and hose on the top of your reservior?

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

With that design, it looks like the scavenge pump could be sucking air. When you say it "completely" fills up, do you mean like 50% of the height (where the pump should be able to "suck" oil just fine without entraining air), or is it really 100% full?

I don't know what kind of pumps these are. Centrifugal or positive-displacement?

The reservoir its getting completly full, so much that even the hose coming from the nipple on top was getting full of oil, and it was starting to travel up.

This is the pump or similar, the smaller one.

This are the gears,

Why do you need a reservior? The pump alone has the sucking ability to move 20x what the oil restrictor can throw at it.

I have only used the stock oil pump that Wil gave me with the kit and it has always worked perfectly. I don't think your pump is working. Remove it and test it using oil and see how long it takes to suck out a quart. You may also want to completely remove the reservior and try turbo to pump to pan connection only.


Also what is the purpose of the nipple and hose on the top of your reservior?

Are you running a BB turbo?

The nipple/line is a vent, so the pump doesnt create a vaccum that will pull on the turbo bearing.

I added the reservoir with the goal to help the pump, when I was running the 40R at the track the car would smoke at long sweepers, that made me think that the pump wasnt getting the oil fast enough. and that why I added the reservoir.

The guys at PT told me that the pump may be sucking air, maybe the reservoir is helping on this?

You say this pump is rated for 20 times more than what the turbo is trowing at it? I ran into the same trouble with the 40R because the restrictor I was using was the one Wil had sent, which was way too big.
Probably the one you are using now. I finally fixed that problem by sorcing the right restrictor, which a wooping .030" .
So maybe the pump hasnt been working at 100% for me.

I will pull and check the pump again, and I will also remove the reservoir and conect the line straight to the pump, maybe it is sucking air.

Thank you guys for your help, I apprciate it.

-MSR

 

[kookoo4nsx]

.030 is the same restrictor Wil gave me. Since I don't track I cannot comment on the long sweepers causing smoke. On a side note, I remember your tune was very conservative with AFR's somewhere in the high 10's. That richness can also cause smoke. Get your AFR's leaner and you will find your turbo spools much faster, especially in the midrange when you get off and get back on it.

 

[chudson1549]

I have a PT6262 with a .030 restrictor. (not built-in) It was a 90degree elbow at the oil feed line. My reservoir is no where near that big and I have never had a problem with it backfilling. I can give you the specs on my pump when I get home or pm Mase for the pump size. My reservoir is just like Bobk's here

The Precision guys told me on some cases you will not need a restrictor BUT!!! on Hondas the oil pressure is pretty high so you COULD use one. Mase and every forum I looked at said use one.. period... it will smoke if not.

HTH

 

[E-Nough Logic]

Don't listen to precision they have continued for years to say don't run a restrictor and people continue to have smoking problems and act like they have never heard it. Run a restrictor maybe start with a .065 and go down if necessary.

Your pump should still be able to keep up with the oil demands though so you might have a seperate issue there. If you need a new pump this is a pump that a lot of people use and have great reviews on:

http://turbowerx.com/Scavenge_Pumps/Exa-Pump/Exa-Pump.html

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

I have a PT6262 with a .030 restrictor. (not built-in) It was a 90degree elbow at the oil feed line. My reservoir is no where near that big and I have never had a problem with it backfilling. I can give you the specs on my pump when I get home or pm Mase for the pump size. My reservoir is just like Bobk's here

The Precision guys told me on some cases you will not need a restrictor BUT!!! on Hondas the oil pressure is pretty high so you COULD use one. Mase and every forum I looked at said use one.. period... it will smoke if not.

HTH

In that reservoir you have , I can't see a vent line. Should I even be running one?
I read that alot of guys smoke for running no restrictors, but PT still doesn't want anyone using one.

Don't listen to precision they have continued for years to say don't run a restrictor and people continue to have smoking problems and act like they have never heard it. Run a restrictor maybe start with a .065 and go down if necessary.

Your pump should still be able to keep up with the oil demands though so you might have a seperate issue there. If you need a new pump this is a pump that a lot of people use and have great reviews on:

http://turbowerx.com/Scavenge_Pumps/Exa-Pump/Exa-Pump.html

I really don't know what size restrictor do they use in their turbo, but with car at idle the pump should of keep up.

I have , a .030" restrictor that I know it worked with the other turbo, if the pump checks out ok, the I will trow it in.

But I been warn that restrictor built in the turbo provides the exact lubrication needed .

What the oil pressures on our car at idle and at 8000rpm?

Are our pressures alot more than other cars?

 

[Gary W]

You may consider

03-1047

Viton Pressure Reduction Valve, 1/4" NPT, 25 psi Garrett GT Ball Bearing Turbos

$39.50

I was getting oil bypassing the turbo seals and after installing the pressure reduction valve everything is OK. Not sure this relates to your problem or not.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/oilsystems.htm

Gary

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

Do you are running a PT6262 , ballbearing I'll assume.
Then that turbo will have a restrictor built in plus your external .030" , how long have you been running that turbo?

Thanks,

-MSR

I have a PT6262 with a .030 restrictor. (not built-in) It was a 90degree elbow at the oil feed line. My reservoir is no where near that big and I have never had a problem with it backfilling. I can give you the specs on my pump when I get home or pm Mase for the pump size. My reservoir is just like Bobk's here

The Precision guys told me on some cases you will not need a restrictor BUT!!! on Hondas the oil pressure is pretty high so you COULD use one. Mase and every forum I looked at said use one.. period... it will smoke if not.

HTH

 

[E-Nough Logic]

Do you are running a PT6262 , ballbearing I'll assume.
Then that turbo will have a restrictor built in plus your external .030" , how long have you been running that turbo?

Thanks,

-MSR

If you google it you will see plenty of people having to put an additional restrictor to keep it from blowing smoke. To just say no restrictor is ever needed just doesn't make any sense, every engine will have a different pressure so you will get a different flow from the same restrictor. Unfortunately they put you in a tough spot you have a turbocharger that smokes and won't stop smoking until you go against the manufacturers advice which will absolve them of all responsibility if something goes wrong.

 

[winreboot]

I try few oil restrictors and .065 was still smoking for me. with .030 it works great. I run -3AN on in and -10AN out from turbo on rbracing standard scavenge pump 2.5 gpm. So far so good no smoke..

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

What turbo is this on? Precision?

I try few oil restrictors and .065 was still smoking for me. with .030 it works great. I run -3AN on in and -10AN out from turbo on rbracing standard scavenge pump 2.5 gpm. So far so good no smoke..

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

Kookoo4nsx Question, The way Wil recomends to wire the pump, does it suposed to prime the pump with the key on the position before starting the motor?

I havent got a chance to to check anything yet and its driving me nuts!!

Thanks,

-MSR

 

[doc_tai]

I wired mine off fuel pump resistor box. So it primes when the fuel pump prime. I run aem ems so it works out perfect for me cause I have to wait 3-5sec before I start anyway

 

[winreboot]

What turbo is this on? Precision?

This is on garrett 60-1

 

[chudson1549]

sorry for the late response. no vent in it. My 6262 from what I saw did not come with a restrictor. I just screwed in the .030

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

Nice, thanks I have it wired the same way and also run AEM EMS.

I wired mine off fuel pump resistor box. So it primes when the fuel pump prime. I run aem ems so it works out perfect for me cause I have to wait 3-5sec before I start anyway

Ok, yes Garrett's BB do take a .030" restrictor . Thats what I had in the 40R just before installing this PT62-66 . Precision told me that they already have a built in restrictor in the turbo.

This is on garrett 60-1

If you unit it's a ball bearing one it most likely does have a restrictor built in, how long have you been running this turbo with the restrictor ? Do you track it?
I am asking this because it does look like I will have to run a .030" restrictor , but I track the car every weekend I'm afraid the turbo will fail!!!

sorry for the late response. no vent in it. My 6262 from what I saw did not come with a restrictor. I just screwed in the .030

Thank you again guys, I will take the pump off on Sunday and see what problem is.

-MSR

 

[winreboot]

It's not ball bearing, no I'm not tracking it. It's all street driving. The .030 works for me but I guess every ones system might be setup little different. I'm not expert but if you track your car I think water cooled turbo would be better to keep the temps down on the shaft. Too late for me but if I had to redo my system I would use water cooled turbo. It extends turbines life and keeps it cooler.


---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?nvqzm1

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

Posting as I go , just pulled the exhaust out and it's full of oil . So if I were to be driving the car it would be smoking .

This is a shit show!!!
If I find that the pump it's fine, I will have to trow a .030" restrictor minimum which will probably make the turbo fail??!!

Checking the pump now.

 

[kookoo4nsx]

Remove and clean your rubber intake right before the throttle body. It probably has oil in it. Add that .030 restrictor and you will be good to go. Ball bearings need VERY little oil. After a track session, let the car idle for 2-3 minutes with the hatch open to let every thing cool down.

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

Ok, damned pump was not turning !!!
The culprit? The smallest sliver of stainless steel from the return line.
Extremely scary , even when I have a filter on the feed something got in it.

I took apart cleaned and retest and the whole system seems to be working ok now,We had the car running for about half hour and with the exhaust off I can still see a bit of oil passing trough the exhaust housing side.

So in short, pump was stuck and now it's working fine., but it seems that it will need a restrictor still.

-MSR

Remove and clean your rubber intake right before the throttle body. It probably has oil in it. Add that .030 restrictor and you will be good to go. Ball bearings need VERY little oil. After a track session, let the car idle for 2-3 minutes with the hatch open to let every thing cool down.

 

[chudson1549]

WOW. Glad you found that!! like Kookoo said the PT turbos need very little oil to run. I had Mase get me another one since mine was blowing smoke at high pull gear changes. It came to the turbo itself had too much tolerence in it front to back and bypassed oil to the exhaust side as it it moved in and out. The new one no smoke..PT fixed the original under warrenty and its back brand new and much tighter when trying to push/pull on it

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

WOW. Glad you found that!! like Kookoo said the PT turbos need very little oil to run. I had Mase get me another one since mine was blowing smoke at high pull gear changes. It came to the turbo itself had too much tolerence in it front to back and bypassed oil to the exhaust side as it it moved in and out. The new one no smoke..PT fixed the original under warrenty and its back brand new and much tighter when trying to push/pull on it

Are you running a restrictor this time then ? What size?

I had the car running for another half hour today, there is oil still coming out from the exhaust housing .
Couple of drops .
See pic.