SCREWED! The Tale of my "Rebuild" (long winded, sorry slow day at work)

[pgilliam1]

Cody from Lovefab ingested a screw also on his 95.

OK - So that makes:
2 - 1995's (Chris at SOS said one of his failures was a 1995 and wasn't
sure on the other one)
1 - 1995/1996
1 - 1997

 

[Daedalus]

my borescope didn't have enough resolution to see how pronounced the swage was.

That's really the key here though. A borescope inspection doesn't have much value unless you can verify the swaging is adequate to prevent the screws from ever backing out. If all you can see are the heads then you might be fine for just a little while or you might be fine for a very long time. And if screws are already missing, thank your lucky stars they're already harmlessly sitting at the bottom of the chamber.

 

[pgilliam1]

That's really the key here though. A borescope inspection doesn't have much value unless you can verify the swaging is adequate to prevent the screws from ever backing out. If all you can see are the heads then you might be fine for just a little while or you might be fine for a very long time. And if screws are already missing, thank your lucky stars they're already harmlessly sitting at the bottom of the chamber.

Allow me to disagree here. A scope will tell you if they are loose or missing and if so, you know you need to remove the manifold and correct it ASAP. If the bolts are missing, can you really assume they are, and will stay, harmless? It's such an easy operation, that scoping it frequently might very well save an exspensive rebuild. My $.02.

 

[gt_nfr]

Just called my local harbour freight, they have the digital inspection
Camera in stock. I'm convinced a $90 dollar camera is good insurance on a $5k motor...
Any Nsx owners in the DMV want to check their motors PM me..I should have it by tonight.
And if the resolution is no Bueno..thank god for receipts!

Keep us updated on the quality of the image from the borescope. May pick one up myself if it makes the inspection easier.

 

[DDozier]

Allow me to disagree here. A scope will tell you if they are loose or missing and if so, you know you need to remove the manifold and correct it ASAP. If the bolts are missing, can you really assume they are, and will stay, harmless? It's such an easy operation, that scoping it frequently might very well save an exspensive rebuild. My $.02.

I have a fiber optic video scope camera, if you want to get together and check yours we can. The VVIS can be viewed with my camera by going through the TB

Dave

 

[EAC]

I have a fiber optic video scope camera, if you want to get together and check yours we can. The VVIS can be viewed with my camera by going through the TB

Dave

Dave, I'm interested too! Maybe we can have VVIS party! :biggrin:

 

[DDozier]

Dave, I'm interested too! Maybe we can have VVIS party! :biggrin:

You are welcome to check them anytime, but with your setup they really should be removed or at least disabled. They are only a benefit to n/a engines.

Dave

 

[EAC]

You are welcome to check them anytime, but with your setup they really should be removed or at least disabled. They are only a benefit to n/a engines.

Dave

When we get it on the dyno friday, can you show me again how to disable them? Isn't it just a matter of pulley/capping a vac line?

 

[latzke]

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath. With 10,000 cars or so in the US, only a handful have experienced VVIS screws loosening. Perhaps inspection can be part of a major service but having everyone tearing into the top end of their motors poses another set of risks.

I'd like to see what Chris, Nabil, Nigel, Larry B and other trained experts have to say on this matter.

< sarcastic post that contributed nothing>

I agree that tearing into the top end poses other risks and should not be done without good reason. On the other hand, while failures/ingestions are rare it may be that screws loosening or falling out (never to be ingested) is not an uncommon occurrence. We'll never know without inspection so if it is easy to do (with scope) maybe something we can get NSX techs to make routine part of major service so we can get some data behind this.

 

[latzke]

No need to rip apart the intake. A generic 18" or longer borescope will work fine for inspection, no special mirrors or attachments are needed. I have a cheap fiber optic one, however I'm going to order an even cheaper $20 USB one off ebay to see if that will be just as good.

Attached are photos, I know they are horrible but with a little patience you can see both sides of the plates clearly. In all it took me 20 minutes to inspect all 6 plates. My screws seem to be fine, but my borescope didn't have enough resolution to see how pronounced the swage was.

I took a couple photos from my cell phone, so it's not good quality at all, but you get the idea.

Left is a distant shot, right image is seriously "up close and personal" to the screw.

Are you able to see if each screw has rotated out of original position (if deformations are at 90-degrees to the rod or not)?

 

[pgilliam1]

I have a fiber optic video scope camera, if you want to get together and check yours we can. The VVIS can be viewed with my camera by going through the TB

Dave

Dave - Thanks for the offer and I'll take you up on it. Whenever you have the time I can make my garage available or I'll meet you where ever it's convenient for you. The last time I took my injectors out to send to RC Engineering I took a peek inside the manifold and it had a layer of black soot covering the inside. If one or more of my VVIS bolts have come loose, it's probably resting comfortably on that layer of crud. I appreciate the offer and will look forward to hearing from you (email or PM me).
Thanks Again,
Pat

 

[SFNSXguy]

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath. With 10,000 cars or so in the US, only a handful have experienced VVIS screws loosening. Perhaps inspection can be part of a major service but having everyone tearing into the top end of their motors poses another set of risks.

I'd like to see what Chris, Nabil, Nigel, Larry B and other trained experts have to say on this matter.

This was the point of my sarcastic post. It seems like this failure is confined to an extremely narrow number of engines (perhaps those with failures will post their engine numbers to see if they are in series)... My automotive experience says that the numbers will be extremely small (I know, small consolation if it's YOUR engine) like the damper pulley failure (easy to guard against with the shield). Perhaps the engines in question experienced some unusual vibration that egged the failure along?

 

[HondaDreamS]

By lb3 at 2011-12-11


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Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath. With 10,000 cars or so in the US, only a handful have experienced VVIS screws loosening. Perhaps inspection can be part of a major service but having everyone tearing into the top end of their motors poses another set of risks.

I'd like to see what Chris, Nabil, Nigel, Larry B and other trained experts have to say on this matter.

I don't think a Chicken Little response is appropriate since these occurrences do seem to be limited. However, we are planning on incorporating the inspection with a video bore scope as part of our 60k/9yr services. For higher mileage cars it is definitely worth considering an inspection if you are not due for a major service. Keep in mind that the screws can be inspected without dismantling the intake manifold, however, it is not 100% assurance, and the inspection does require someone with skill and knowledge of what they are looking at to determine if the screws are backing out.

-- Chris

 

[RedWings]

I don't think a Chicken Little response is appropriate since these occurrences do seem to be limited. However, we are planning on incorporating the inspection with a video bore scope as part of our 60k/9yr services. For higher mileage cars it is definitely worth considering an inspection if you are not due for a major service. Keep in mind that the screws can be inspected without dismantling the intake manifold, however, it is not 100% assurance, and the inspection does require someone with skill and knowledge of what they are looking at to determine if the screws are backing out.

-- Chris

+1 Thanks Chris, glad to hear it

 

[nsx_2k]

HondaDreamS, I'm curious were you able to view all the butterflies with that camera? Also, how difficult was it with that particular scope? I ask because the tip of the scope has very little flexibility.

 

[bobert486]

HondaSdream, what year is your car and it's mileage?

thanks

 

[pgilliam1]

HondaDreamS, I'm curious were you able to view all the butterflies with that camera? Also, how difficult was it with that particular scope? I ask because the tip of the scope has very little flexibility.

I'd like to add to that:

Can you look at the front and back of the butterflies with that scope? As mentioned; the bolts are swagged perpendicular to the rail, so if they're not, then they have loosened.

 

[HondaDreamS]

I'd like to add to that:

Can you look at the front and back of the butterflies with that scope? As mentioned; the bolts are swagged perpendicular to the rail, so if they're not, then they have loosened.

I have a '92 BB. with cLose to 150k on the clock So checking those bolts was a top priority.
Inspecting the butterflies is a very easy job. Honestly the longest time was spent removing the air box. ThIs particular camera I purchased from Harbour Freight works perfectly for this inspection. In abou 5min I was able to inspect all six butterflies confirming that no bolt had backed out or dropped. The second pic is the Close up of the head of the bolts, In order to view the swagged side you can try to rotate the VVIS linkage under the throttle and or what i did was just keep resetting the camera till you get a perfect shot of them. I locked the throttle linkage with a 12mm socket allowing me to manipulate the camera very easily. Surprisingly it's a direct shot to the VVIS from the throttlebody so not having a very manuverable head isn't a problem with this inspection. Now this is not a 100% guarantee that the bolts still won't back out but I now know that none have started to back out or have already fallen in the manifold. So after 150k all looks good but I will continue to inspect them every few months. Inspecting with a camera is a 1000x easier than removing the manifold to inspect. Insurance for only $90 can't Beat it.

 

[clarkm]

Bought one of those Harbor Freight borescopes about a year ago, used it once and put it away. When I got it out to use it again, had no picture, just could see dark or light. Took it back to Harbor Freight. They said that I had owned it too long, and that it was my problem. Took it apart. Cheap plastic lens had clouded internally, as if gas in plastic had come out of solution. Not a surface problem. Next one I buy will be different, real brand.

 

[TyraNSX]

Buy.com had one in email today for $90. Don't know where made or how good.

Bought one of those Harbor Freight borescopes about a year ago, used it once and put it away. When I got it out to use it again, had no picture, just could see dark or light. Took it back to Harbor Freight. They said that I had owned it too long, and that it was my problem. Took it apart. Cheap plastic lens had clouded internally, as if gas in plastic had come out of solution. Not a surface problem. Next one I buy will be different, real brand.

 

[pgilliam1]

I have a '92 BB. with cLose to 150k on the clock So checking those bolts was a top priority.
Inspecting the butterflies is a very easy job. Honestly the longest time was spent removing the air box. ThIs particular camera I purchased from Harbour Freight works perfectly for this inspection. In abou 5min I was able to inspect all six butterflies confirming that no bolt had backed out or dropped. The second pic is the Close up of the head of the bolts, In order to view the swagged side you can try to rotate the VVIS linkage under the throttle and or what i did was just keep resetting the camera till you get a perfect shot of them. I locked the throttle linkage with a 12mm socket allowing me to manipulate the camera very easily. Surprisingly it's a direct shot to the VVIS from the throttlebody so not having a very manuverable head isn't a problem with this inspection. Now this is not a 100% guarantee that the bolts still won't back out but I now know that none have started to back out or have already fallen in the manifold. So after 150k all looks good but I will continue to inspect them every few months. Inspecting with a camera is a 1000x easier than removing the manifold to inspect. Insurance for only $90 can't Beat it.

Well, so far we only have 1995, 1996 and 1997 models that have this as a known problem.

THX for the reply.

 

[greenberet]

Well, so far we only have 1995, 1996 and 1997 models that have this as a known problem.

… and I suspect my 1991 had this problem but I'm not sure. My mechanic adjusted something inside the VVIS system to get rid of the rattle it was causing but I didn’t ask exactly what it was that he did.

 

[pgilliam1]

… and I suspect my 1991 had this problem but I'm not sure. My mechanic adjusted something inside the VVIS system to get rid of the rattle it was causing but I didn’t ask exactly what it was that he did.

Might have been just a vaccuum leak. How much was the repair bill, or you could call him and verify it :wink:?

 

[HondaDreamS]

Bought one of those Harbor Freight borescopes about a year ago, used it once and put it away. When I got it out to use it again, had no picture, just could see dark or light. Took it back to Harbor Freight. They said that I had owned it too long, and that it was my problem. Took it apart. Cheap plastic lens had clouded internally, as if gas in plastic had come out of solution. Not a surface problem. Next one I buy will be different, real brand.

If you buy from harbour freight purchase the 2 year warranty. Paid $20 for two years.