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Shifter binds coming out of gear on downshifts?

Joined
7 May 2017
Messages
43
I'm sorting out my new to me nsx, and one thing I notice is on some downshifts, the lever does not freely want to leave the gear it's in. I've learned to pull slightly, breathe off, and then it pulls out of gear smoothly. It only happens on some downshifts.

I had an old 993 once, and had this much more severely, to the point where it wouldn't come out of gear. On the nsx, it will come out of gear if you pull with more force. The 993 had developed corrosion on the input shaft, and the clutch disc couldn't slide freely, and didn't release from the flywheel, even though the pressure plate was disengaged. Heel toe downshifts would release the disc, and a slight blip of the throttle on upshifts would release it too. I don't think this is the same.....

Has anyone run into this? Car has had regular maintenance, but hasn't been driven much prior to me buying it. I'm driving it quite a bit!

Thanks,
David
 
As you suspect: clutch not running freely. Can have several causes. First thing to check is the clutch hydraulics. When have they been replaced in the past? Air in the system? -> bleeding. OEM clutch or aftermarket? How old? Cars not being riden often can run into problems of that kind.
 
What shifter assembly is in there?

I had that same issue but after switching my clutch assembly it went away. A transmission flush helped but not by much. I think it has popped up here and there even after the clutch change though.
 
My gut reaction would line up with the preceding comments and your observation about your 993 - your clutch is dragging. A dragging clutch will typically show up as grinding shifting into reverse because of the absence of synchronizers in reverse. Have you had any incidence of grinding going into reverse? If no evidence of grinding, that suggests; but, is not absolute confirmation that the clutch is not the problem. The clutch may be dragging just enough that there is still torque being transferred through the original gear pair which makes it harder to disengage that gear pair. Also, my experience has been that a severely dragging clutch can complicate the shift into 1st and sometimes 2nd gear.

Your description I've learned to pull slightly, breathe off, and then it pulls out of gear smoothly. It only happens on some downshifts. smells a little bit like synchronizers. I am guessing that the pull slightly, breathe off, and then it pulls out of gear smoothly might be giving the synchronizer a little more time to accelerate the transmission input shaft (or the car is slowing down a little bit) to match up speeds on the new gear pair on the down shift. A big RPM match (rapid de acceleration) on a down shift makes the synchronizers jobs tougher because they have a lot of acceleration to do on the input shaft. If you are driving along at steady speed, say 100 kph and shift from 5th to 4th (or whatever depending on your transmission) and there is no balking in the down shift, that again suggests synchronizers. Down shifting gears at constant speed minimizes the speed matching that the synchros have to do. Also, does the balking only occur on certain down shifts or on all down shifts? If it occurs on certain down shifts that again would point at wear on specific synchronizers. If the down shift problem occurs on all gear changes, then I have no clue!!!

If you think it might be the synchronizers, the first thing to consider is confirm that the previous owner has the correct fluid in the gear box. A fluid change with Honda MTL can be useful, in particular because examining what comes out for wear particles might give you some clues as to whether you have a serious wear problem or normal wear. If fresh MTL does not help with the problem, then you can consider the synchromesh cocktails. A search on Prime will give you a range of anecdotal experience with the cocktails. There is some discussion about the effect of the friction modifiers on the LSD. Be aware that the friction modifiers that are applied to improve the operation of the synchronizers in transmission fluid actually reduce the slipperiness of the oil. This works because the synchronizer mechanisms are like little clutches which have to accelerate the gear pair to match speed. Reduced slipperiness results in improved 'clutch' action. The LSD also relies on clutch action and vendors of friction modified transmission fluid recommend against use in transaxles with LSDs because the modifiers alter the operation of the LSD. The reason this is significant is that the discussion of the 'cocktail' varies from 1/3 friction modified all the way up to 100 % friction modified oil. I would stay away from the 100% friction modified oil because the friction modifiers reduce the slip on the LSD clutches and will result in earlier engagement. There is at least one report on Prime of an owner who was experiencing constant lock up on his LSD in moderate cornering. The problem was resolved by draining his 100% friction modified oil and replacing it with normal Honda MTL.

The other thing to be aware of if you want to try the friction modified oil is that GM and other vendors sell friction modifiers for use with certain LSDs. However, these friction modifiers have just the opposite effect of the friction modified transmission fluids. Use these friction modifiers in your transmission and your synchro operation will go down the toilet. Make sure that you don't use this stuff.

As Larry B. says, that is my $0.02; however, in my case its probably more like $0.00002.
 
The reverse gear of the NSX IS synchronised.

Maybe the OP could add more infos. What gears are affected? All or just one of them? New gearbox oil won't help anything if the gear doesn't want to go back to neutral. New oil helps going INTO the next gear.
 
The reverse gear of the NSX IS synchronised.

Maybe the OP could add more infos. What gears are affected? All or just one of them? New gearbox oil won't help anything if the gear doesn't want to go back to neutral. New oil helps going INTO the next gear.

That comment sent me scurrying for the shop manual and holy crap, there is a synchronizer between the reverse gear pair on the idler shaft. Didn't expect that. Definitely moots the grinding going into reverse gear test. Guess that's why my comments are only worth $0.00002.

I definitely agree that the synchronizers / oil change would not address dis engaging the gear pair. That would be more clutch drag and torque continuing to be applied through the original gear pair. However the OP also talked about down shifts, so it is not clear whether the problem was disengaging or the shift to the next gear pair. If the OP can't shift from 5th (or whatever gear) into neutral, I agree that no oil change is going to fix that.

One potential clutch related problem, even if there is clean release of the friction disc is a dragging pilot bearing can cause shifting problems. However, my one experience (not on an NSX) with that is it came with noise on release (as soon as the bearing inner race was trying to rotate) and didn't last for long before it 'self diagnosed'.
 
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Old Guy, no problem. ;) I had one in my hands last winter...:)

I think we need more info from the OP first. If you have to pull 'hard' on the shift lever to get out of a certain it doesn't matter what gear you're choosing next. The order is like this: 1. disengage current gear - 2. neutral - 3. selecting next gear. If there's a problem from 1->2 it's only a matter of tje ability of both gearbox shafts spinning freely and the sleeve/hub mechanism of the related gear.

The OP talks about downshifts. What about upshifts? If the clutch is dragging you'd have problems in both scenarios.
It could be that the problem with a not fully disengaging clutch is more pronounced at downshifts because the mainshaft (where the clutch sits on) has to speed up while the engine revs are usually lowering (unless you rev-match). But in that scenario the 3rd step of selecting the next gear will be troublesome too.

It could be a slightly dragging clutch but in the NSX world this is quite a rare scenario, maybe 1 out of 10. In 9 of 10 cases it is/was the clutch hydraulics with master/slave not working correctly. That's why I've asked about the date of revision of these items. A quick look in the reservoir will give you a hint if you have a problem but even with a full reservoir the hydraulic parts could be bad, depending on how old they are. They fail after 15-20 years. As the car hasn't been driven by the former owner the current owner will be the one who runs into the problem. :)

One test could be to observe the behaviour if you 1. push the clutch pedal slowly or 2. push it very fast or 3. even push it 2 times instead of only 1 time ('pump it up').
 
When I had stuck gears it was more pronounced on downshifts. Would only grind when I was quickly upshifting (as opposed to slowly), and I was pretty sure I had the clutch pedal all the way down in both cases.

In the case of "bound to a gear" the speed of clutch pedal or amount didn't matter. I sometimes had the clutch held in for a few seconds and it still wouldn't come out, and sometimes I would press it multiple times. The OP's technique would help but sometimes it just didn't want to come out unless I muscled it.

Short of replacing the synchros/gears my path to fixing this would've been to check the cheapest options first: start with the tranny flush and check if you have a bad shifter (could be a worn shift fork or badly designed one, if you have aftermarket).
 
Thanks guys for all the input!

The original transmission in my car was replaced under warranty for snap ring about 30k miles ago in '01, and the clutch was replaced then too. The slave and master cylinder were replaced at 56k miles in '13. A clutch hose went leaked and was replaced/bled in '14, and The transmission was serviced with Honda MTF in '14.

All upshifts are smooth. The hangup occurs only on coming out of gear on downshifts. I'm pretty sure it occurs in most gears, but I'll have to pay more attention. It happens when I blip the throttle to heel toe, or when going to neutral coasting to a stop light; however it doesn't happen every time nor do the gears grind ( which makes me think it's not sychros). It's just a resistance coming out of gear.

I kind of went off the deep end, and ordered parts to do short gears, 4.23, SOS SC, SOS LWF, headers, exhaust. I'm going to drop the engine this winter and do the big serice and LMA's, check the valves, and cam plugs. So, the transmission will be gone through, and I'll be able to rule out corrosion on the input shaft.....

David
 
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