Suspension & clutch

[wildrice]

Have decided to change to Tein RA suspension and Comptech Powergrip 1 clutch and light weight flywheel. Looking for opinions and facts concerning either of these modifications. My car is a 2000 NSX-T with under 10,000 miles. Anyone that has actually performed either of these mods and could provide positive or negative input would be appreciated.

[This message has been edited by wildrice (edited 08 February 2003).]

 

[Jimbo]

I don't think those 3 items help you in your stated quest all that much.

1. Weight reduction - NIL

I suspect the weight of the car will be pretty much the same. There's other things you could do in this regard.

2. Performance - NIL

The engine will rev quicker, but I really doubt you'll see a big increase in performance. There's numerous posts on the most cost-effective ways to do this.

3. Handling - Somewhat

The Tein's will make it easier to setup and adjust, no doubt. What's your goal, however? Are you tracking this car? You could also invest in a set of racing tires, thicker roll bars, anti-compliance, etc.

If your goal is track performance and you're not fully experienced you might wish to invest in some lessons.

I just think that there's probably better options for you to meet those goals.

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
2003 MINI Cooper S - On Order - All Black
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

 

[wildrice]

Appreciate your reply Jimbo. I probably will not track the car. As far as weight reduction I have already removed or replaced the following: cat ( with ARC titanium), seat bottoms, spare tire, wheels (with Volk TE37's in stock 16/17 fitment), air pump/jack, tool kit, floor mats, truck mat, engine cover and battery (with Odyssey 680). The above equates to the following total gross weight reduction in the same order as above: 34 + 6 + 29 + 22 + 9 + 8 + 7 + 5 + 25 + 20 = 165 lbs. The wheels are more significant than the gross number showen due to unsprung weight and rotational mass. So, you see it is very hard to obtain significant weight reduction but in my research I found that the Tein RA and Comptech Powergrip 1 both met my definition of significant weight reduction.

The Tein RA conversion will further reduce weight by 26 lbs and the Comptech Powergrip 1 with light weight flywheel will also further reduce weight by 19 lbs. With these two conversions my total weight loss will be 165 + 26 + 19 = 210 lbs.

As far as performance, by improving launch, reducing weight and quicker revs I have been told that this will both reduce 0-60 and quarter mile times.

Can you be specific with respect to your statement that there are probably better options for me to meet my goals.

Again, thanks for your input and a look forward to your opinions.

 

[matteni]

How about on top of what you allready planned (weight savings an estimate):

- Jun Ultralight Flywheel (8 lbs)
- CF bucket seats (60 lbs)
- CF hood (20 lbs)
- CF spoiler (12 lbs)
- CF airbox (5 lbs)
- CF strut bar (5 lbs)
- Lexan rear window (30 lbs)
- Removal of TCS computer (5 lbs)

Then of course there is always:
- Stereo
- Carpet
- AC
- Interior panels
- Airbags
- Steering wheel replacement

Good luck

 

[wildrice]

The seats I am working on. Your ideas are good but a little too much for me except for the Lexan rear window and removal of the air conditioner.

Do u know where that rear window car be purchased. I would like to explore it further. The weight reduction is tremendous.

Does anyone know the weight of the A/C and also has anyone removed it and if so could you give me some details?
Thanks for the ideas.

[This message has been edited by wildrice (edited 07 February 2003).]

 

[NSX2NV]

Sos carries the lexan rear hatch.
http://www.scienceofspeed.com/products/exterior_performance_products/NSX/ ScienceofSpeed/engine_hatch/


[This message has been edited by NSX2NV (edited 07 February 2003).]

 

[rrwildman]

Please tell me you guys aren't talking about street cars here

- RR

 

[Jimbo]

If you're not going to track the car....hmm...

I'm guess I'm just wondering what's the point of it all?

What's your vision for this car?

I mean with all this expense and effort, why not just add the FI system of your choice?

On the other hand, if you're looking for a street racer keep in mind you could remove 500 lbs and there's still going to be some punk in a 5.0 Mustang or a Turboed Hyundai out there that's going to walk all over you.

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
2003 MINI Cooper S - On Order - All Black
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

 

[wildrice]

I believe we are straying away from the original intent of my post. I am looking for members that have the Tein RA suspension or Comptech Powergrip 1 and lightweight flywheel combo installed on their car and how they feel about the mods. I already know that they are BOTH significant weight reductions based upon my research and my definition of significant. I also believe the Tein is a very nice set-up for our cars. Whether or not I intend to track the car is irrelevant.

Matteni and NSX2NV gave me some very good ideas. The rest are OK but somewhat out of the scope of my original post. And rrwildman I have no idea what the motivation behind your post is. And I certainly don't care to comment on it other than the above sentence.

Jimbo, my vision, the point, to track or not to track,the expense, the effort, the 5.0 Mustang, the Hyundai Turbo......what does this have to do with the Tein RA suspension and Comptech powergrip clutch?

Don't take me wrong, I appreciate the feedback but I don't care to get into all the rest of it. Suffice it to say that I enjoy mildly modifing my cars with high grade aftermarket components to enhance MY definition of driving enjoyment.

I struck the last sentence from my original post because I believe it is leading to the diversions.

[This message has been edited by wildrice (edited 08 February 2003).]

[This message has been edited by wildrice (edited 08 February 2003).]

 

[MvM]

Wildrice,
I am looking at the TEIN RA as well at the moment and like you am looking for comments on that.
There is/was a long thread in the European forum about the TEIN. There are some comments from Detlef there who is also running TEIN on his car and is using it on the Nurnburgring running some very good times there. Look at: http://www.nsxprime.com/ubb/Forum20/HTML/000021.html

Hope this helps.

 

[wildrice]

MvM,

Very informative link, thanks!

I believe that I will discuss my concerns with Chris at SofS with respect to oversteer, spring rates, my weight reduction program and how it might effect spring rates and ride quality.

Now, if I could just find some info on the Comptech Powergrip 1 clutch/lightweight flywheel combo!!!!

 

[matteni]

If you do a search on Powergrip I think you will find many interesting past conversations.

Good luck

 

[Jimbo]

Wild,

Sorry about that. You were the one to ask about those mods with respect to weight reduction, performance and handling. But since you've already made the decision to purchase, I suppose this is all a moot point.

I only asked what your vision of the car and where you planned to use the car (i.e. track or street) because it does make a difference. It's hard to offer advice without understand what your definition of driving enjoyment is. Whether or not you intend to track the car or not - has everything to do with it.

I've driven a Tein RA equipped car on the street and while it was cool for a day or so, I would find it annoying, and perhaps dangerous, to drive on the street on the roads that I frequent here in my area. On a smooth track, however, I would have a different opinion. On the street (at least the ones in my neighborhood) the Tein's would simply be too much. They would cause the car to bounce around too much.

Regarding the Powergrip. The 19 lb weight reduction you cite misses the point. I would never purchase it because of that. It's the faster revs and rotational inertia drop that is key here. I would think if you're in a position to put in a new clutch/flywheel, it's a reasonable mod for that purpose.

Good luck with your new purchases! Let us know how you like them.

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
2003 MINI Cooper S - On Order - All Black
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html


[This message has been edited by Jimbo (edited 08 February 2003).]

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

Here's some useful information perhaps.

1. The Comptech clutch is the only clutch that you can buy that will eliminate the HEAVY dual mass flywheel on your year of NSX. It will lead to very noticeable increase in spin up of the motor during clutch in blipping that helps in quick rev matched downshifts and improves the sportiness feel of the car. While the flywheel in the PG clutches is not particularly light, that's irrelevant. The whole clutch assembly is bolted to the flywheel, so everything has to spin either in neutral or during acceleration. Sales pitch: we stock & discount this product.

2. I have come to the conclusion on suspensions that people's impression of ride quality varies quite a bit, such as the question of what your favorite exhaust is. I personally find the ride firm, but not uncomfortable, and I've driven the suspension with Recaro buckets thousands of miles to different events. Every customer that has expressed concern about ride harshness has never complained once the kit was on the car. Remember, with the TEIN, you have the option to use the rubber upper mounts, which dampen a lot of shock to the chassis by adding a layer of compliance. The handling improves quite a bit, even on the street. It also assists in a streetable weight reduction program.

I prefer a different spring rate than the rates TEIN uses. We can special order special rates for you. On a very side note, TAITEC will be testing a new N1 damper kit for TEIN in the Super Taikyu races this year. This is a double adjustable racing suspension with separate bumper/rebound adjustment and separate fluid reservoirs. Should be available in 3-6 months.

Cheers,
-- Chris




------------------
Revolutionize your NSX with ScienceofSpeed
www.ScienceofSpeed.com | [email protected] | 877-863-4520

 

[wildrice]

Chris,

I just sent you a lengthy email and look forward to your response.

Jimbo, the track issue is STILL irrelevant to ME and I was very aware of the the other two issues wrt the clutch. The weight REDUCTION is still very relevant to ME. Enough said on those issues by both of us. I can see that you have different opinions than me with regard to track and weight and that is fine.

Chris, I appreciate your professional answer and look forward to doing more business with you.

 

[Jimbo]

Wild,

Hey, what's with the attitude? I asked a reasonable question in order to best offer an opinion. I was only trying to help.

I don't have any "opinion" on track or weight. As an engineer I tend to look at these things dispassionately depending on the circumstances.

In addition to the previously mentioned comments, such as gutting the interior, radio, speakers, A/C unit, etc, here's some other ideas on weight reduction...

1. Get rid of the headlights/motors and just leave the headlight doors closed. (of course, you wouldn't be able to drive at night, but you would save a lot of weight.

2. Remove the steel bumper beams. Replace with aluminum versions, or leave off entirely.

3. Remove passenger seat entirely.

4. Never put more than a 1/4 tank's worth of fuel in the car.

5. Remove the gas springs from the hatch and the trunk. Use a prop rod when needed.

6. Remove wipers (use Rain-X if needed).

7. Never fill the windshield washers. Or better yet, remove the entire washer system. Since the wipers are gone, it doesn't make sense anyway.

-Jim

[This message has been edited by Jimbo (edited 08 February 2003).]

 

[matteni]

Just guessing but it seems you are highly reluctant to go FI.

Have you concidered the CompTech internal engine modifications? Not a huge HP gain but not that bad either.

Another route - I would write some of the vendors like ACR and Factor X and ask them about the ability to increase displacement. I had heard some interesting things about overboring, sleaving, increasing stroke, etc. but it has been a while.

Good luck - sounds like an exciting project!

 

[wildrice]

Jimbo,

More good weight reduction ideas but I am afraid that I am always a step ahead of you. You know what I mean, some people are always a day late and a dollar short. Specifically, I was already planning on doing your number 1,3,5,6 and 7. I already do your number 4. And with regard to your #2, being an engineer and all I am surprised that you would recommend aluminum rather than titanium. I am planning on your number 2 but with titanium.

I also always remember to go to the bathroom before I get in the car and if I haven't done a #2 within 12 hours I wait to take the ride until after I do. I never have anything in my pockets, no maps or manuals, always wear shorts with no underwear or socks, a sleeveless shirt, no sunglasses, only one CD and make my wife follow me in our other car and we use hand signals that that we have perfected over the years to communicate.

So you see, when I say I am serious about weight reduction I truly am. Oh, and I went on a diet about 18 months ago and lost 35 lbs ( my doctor is much happier now becuase by cholesterol dropped 45 points!).

Thanks for your input!

 

[Jimbo]

You don't have to be an engineer to know that aluminum is still lighter (per unit volume) than titanium. Since the bumper beams aren't a highly stressed part (i.e. connecting rods), I think aluminum would be a much better choice. That's if you're really concerned about weight reduction.

And good idea on your #2 reduction plan as it seems you're full of it.

-Jim

 

[matteni]

Wildrice - what is your target curb weight you are shooting for?

Are you "adding" anything - like a roll bar, fire supression sytem, etc.

One more tip. Doug H's flamemobile at http://www.nsxfiles.com has CF doors! They weigh something like 4 lbs each. He does have a full roll cage giving him good side protection but definately offsets the rolecage/belts/hardware.

 

[wildrice]

Come on now Jimbo, safety before weight reduction. That's why I have to choose titanium over aluminum and still have seat belts and air bags in my car. Would not want to take this weight reduction thing too far, know what I mean?

And to the contrary, I use to have a #2 problem but since I increased the fiber in my diet I don't have a problem meeting the 12 hour driving deadline.

But keep trying and proposing weight reduction ideas, you just might get beginners luck and hit on something that I haven't already thought of or that someone hasn't already proposed. Some people live their whole lives and never have an original idea!!!! But I am sure that they can still have a very fulfilling life - can't they????

 

[wildrice]

Matteni,

Weight reduction was one of the major themes in the creation of the NSX (Jimbo are u listening?). Honda has always embraced the idea of weight reduction for enhanced driving performance. A good example is the NSX-R and the painstaking weight reduction measures taken such as a carbon fiber hood (2.20kg reduction), carbon fiber rear spoiler (1.30kg reduction), thinner rear glass partition (.20kg reduction) and a mesh jersey shift boot (.01kg weight reduction). As you can see they took weight reduction down to the last gram!! So when Jimbo, for example, states that a 19lb weight reduction is NIL and insignificant he is showing his ignorance and lack of respect for what Honda viewed as a major theme in the development of the NSX. A 19lb weight reduction is equivalent to 8.62kg!!!!!

My car weighs 3164 lbs or 1435kg (2000 NSX-T), a 1999 Zanardi edition weighs 2970 lbs or 1347kg and the NSX-R weighs in its lightest form (without A/C and airbags) 2800 lbs or 1270 kg. With the weight reduction I have untaken my car now weighs 2999 lbs or 1360 kg. My goal is to further decrease weight by at least 100 lbs and end up at 2900 lbs or 1315 kg.

How? Removal of A/C = 44lbs (not sure about this weight), suspension and clutch replacement = 35 lbs and Lexan window divider & rear glass = 22 lbs. This dos not take into consideration replacing the seats which is a significant weight reduction (27 lbs per seat but you have to add back the mounting hardware so net will be in the 20 per seat range).

And I still have all the comfort options (other than A/C which I don't use anyway) and have not sacrificed any of the options that I enjoy and yet have a car that is much lighter than the lighest US edition and approaching the weight of the NSX-R.

As far as FI, displacement increase, internals, S/C, NOS or T/C that is somewhere in the future but not now. I am enjoying my quest for weight reduction and have no doubt that I can quite easily move the car below 2900 lbs as I detailed above, following in the footsteps of Honda and their philosophy in the creation of the NSX. Unless they change their philosophy, the next generation of NSX will continue in this quest which means larger, heavier engines and associated hardware will probably not be pursued unless compensating weight savings can be achieved so that the end product is equal to or less than the current product in weight.

 

[Jimbo]

Weight reduction was one of the major themes in the creation of the NSX (Jimbo are u listening?).

Yeah, that's why I didn't purchase a "T".

-J

 

[wildrice]

True, but I always wanted to have the cake and eat it too!! Jimbo, they did not make a targa in 1992. The first year for the targa was 1995. So obviously, you did not have that choice since you drive a 1992.

On many warm summer days I leave the top at home and lose another 25lbs which takes my total weight loss to 190lbs or 2974 lbs, within 4 lbs of the lightest NSX to have ever been sold in the U.S.

[This message has been edited by wildrice (edited 09 February 2003).]

[This message has been edited by wildrice (edited 09 February 2003).]

 

[Jimbo]

So obviously, you did not have that choice since you drive a 1992.

No, I purchased my 92 just about two years ago. I could have purchased a NSX-T if I wanted.

Cheers!

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
2003 MINI Cooper S - On Order - All Black
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html