TCS problem after install of new wheels

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24 May 2004
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Marietta, GA
Hey guys, i'm a newbie to this forum so please to jump on me to bad, but I have a 92 NSX and I just installed a set of wheels from a 97 on my car. The tire sizes are 205/50/16 and 245/40/17. They have 90% tread on all four corners. All have accuarte pressure in them as well. Now that the backround info is out of the way here is my problem. After doing this install my TCS light flashes green and my car won't accelerate for a sec or two being that the tcs is activating itself for that time periode. I have never had this problem before I installed the wheels so i'm assuming that something may have gone wrong with the install. I have read the FAQ about TCS but havent got a chance to go to the dealer yet. Can anyboyd point me in the right direction on this. I'm pretty tech savvy but kinda wanted to see if I could get a few suggestions.



Thanks
 
From the Tire Tech FAQ it appears the rear wheels/tires to be significantly close (811 vs 816 rev/mile )between pre 97 and 97+. This cannot be said for the front ones however (874 vs 824 rev/mile).

I suspect the 205/50R16 fronts may be a bit too off for your 92 computer. If you still have your OEM front wheels w/ tires, you could put these back on temporarily to see if the TCS problem goes away. If it does, you need to adjust front or rears to match the difference you observed (or drive w/ the TCS off).

hope this helps
 
Ok sounds good man i'll trying putting back on my 92 front wheels and see if that cures up the problem. It's always a good idea to go with OEM setup i'm sure especially with TCS i'm finding out. This is my first car with TCS and coming from a few twin turbo Z cars its alot different. Anyways, if that takes care of it do i just need to adjust tire size to the OEM 215/45/16 or what do I need to do as far as adjusting fronts or rears as you were referring in your post? I'll give that a shot and post a response on how that works out. I appreciate the help man.


Thanks:D
 
Let's work first about diagnosing the problem, we'll talk about curing it once we figured it out. Let me know if switching back to the 92 oems one fixes your problem.
 
Don't even bother switching them back. The problem is definitely caused by your tire sizes.

The TCS functions based on the ratio of the outer diameter of the front tire to the outer diameter of the rear tire. If you change that ratio by roughly 5 percent or more, TCS will experience problems. Because other factors can also change the ratio - for example, the difference between a new tire and a worn tire is about 2 percent - it's even better to choose tire sizes which keep the ratio within about 3 percent of stock.

There are lots of tire calculators on the web that you can use to find the variation from stock. Here is one example.

Your front tire size of 205/50-16 is 4.3 percent larger than the stock 205/50-15 on your '92. Your rear tire size of 245/40-17 is 0.6 percent smaller than the stock 225/50-16 on your '92. Thus you are changing the ratio of the front to rear by approximately 4.9 percent. This is the cause of your TCS problems.

Your rear size is the stock size for the '94-01 NSX. The front stock size for the '94-01 NSX is 215/45-16, which is 2.4 percent larger than the '91-93 stock size. Thus the overall change in the ratio is about 3.0 percent with this front size and your new rear size. If you change your front tires to 215/45-16, you will no longer experience TCS problems. (Many owners, including myself, have used the '94-01 stock sizes on a '91-93 with no TCS problems.) Just don't get some other front size whose outer diameter is larger than the 215/45-16.

You didn't mention what brand and model of tires you have. Since you need to replace the front tires, keep in mind that it's a good idea to use the same make and model front tire as rear tire. If you like those sticky, great-handling OEM tires (Yokohama A022H or Bridgestone RE010), you can get them in the '94-01 stock sizes and they'll be fine.

Oh, and in case you are wondering, the tire sizes you just got would not have caused problems on a '94-01 NSX (such as that of the owner from whom you bought the tires) because the TCS computer on those cars does the calculation starting with the '94-01 stock sizes. The tires you bought have the '94-01 stock rear size, and the front is 1.9 percent larger than the '94-01 stock size. Thus the difference in the front-to-rear ratio was only 1.9 percent from the stock '94-01 ratio, even though it is 4.9 percent from the stock '91-93 ratio. Hope that makes sense.

EDIT: Fixed typo.
 
Last edited:
rear size typo?

nsxtasy said:
... Your rear tire size of 245/50-17 is 0.6 percent smaller than the stock 225/50-16 on your '92. . .


hmmm, the rear size mentioned by Xotic92 was 245/40-17; not 245/50-17. Unsure if that will make a difference... :confused:
 
Osiris_x11 said:
hmmm, the rear size mentioned by Xotic92 was 245/40-17; not 245/50-17.
Oops!

I accidentally had a typo when I was typing the above sentence. I used the correct size (245/40-17) in the calculations, I just mis-typed it in the sentence quoted, which I have since corrected. Sorry... :o
 
Ok once again i've learned something (but always seems to be bad news for me).

Ok so i have a 95 Auto w/ stock suspen. New Flux's & tires on order from WB w/ Nitto 555's. If my calcs are correct i get the following:

Current Front - 215/45-16
New Front - 225/35-18 = 2.5% larger

Current Rear - 245/40-17
New Rear - 275/30-19 = 3.2 % larger

Are we aggregating these differences together to make the overall ratio? If so, then I project my new wheels will make a 5.7% difference!! :eek: Will that affect my TCS? (new wheels and tires have not arrived)
 
JOPRIMO said:
Ok once again i've learned something (but always seems to be bad news for me).

Ok so i have a 95 Auto w/ stock suspen. New Flux's & tires on order from WB w/ Nitto 555's. If my calcs are correct i get the following:

Current Front - 215/45-16
New Front - 225/35-18 = 2.5% larger

Current Rear - 245/40-17
New Rear - 275/30-19 = 3.2 % larger

Are we aggregating these differences together to make the overall ratio? If so, then I project my new wheels will make a 5.7% difference!! :eek: Will that affect my TCS? (new wheels and tires have not arrived)


As Ken will most likely let you know... You may have some rubbing up front when turning at full lock... I have the same year car and same size wheels and tires, I have never had a problem with the TCS...
 
JOPRIMO said:
Current Front - 215/45-16
New Front - 225/35-18 = 2.5% larger

Current Rear - 245/40-17
New Rear - 275/30-19 = 3.2 % larger

Are we aggregating these differences together to make the overall ratio? If so, then I project my new wheels will make a 5.7% difference!! :eek: Will that affect my TCS? (new wheels and tires have not arrived)
Your calculations are correct. However, the ratio of the front outer diameter to the rear outer diameter changes by the difference of the two percentage changes, not by their sum. So in this example, the ratio will change by approximately 0.7 percent. You should not have any TCS problems with this setup on a '95.

As Len notes, you may get some rubbing in front, but that is a different story.

(Note - in the previous example, the reason that the two numbers were added rather than subtracted was that the fronts were 4.3 percent larger while the rears were 0.6 percent smaller. The percentage difference between +4.3 percent and -0.6 percent is 4.9. But in the example for your '95, both tires are larger, so it's the difference between two positive numbers.)
 
Thanks for clarifying that. I was wondering about the smaller/larger part of your post. Guess i'm good to go. Thanks again.
 
Xotic92 said:
Hey guys, i'm a newbie to this forum so please to jump on me to bad, but I have a 92 NSX and I just installed a set of wheels from a 97 on my car. The tire sizes are 205/50/16 and 245/40/17. They have 90% tread on all four corners. All have accuarte pressure in them as well. Now that the backround info is out of the way here is my problem. After doing this install my TCS light flashes green and my car won't accelerate for a sec or two being that the tcs is activating itself for that time periode. I have never had this problem before I installed the wheels so i'm assuming that something may have gone wrong with the install. I have read the FAQ about TCS but havent got a chance to go to the dealer yet. Can anyboyd point me in the right direction on this. I'm pretty tech savvy but kinda wanted to see if I could get a few suggestions.



Thanks

Try with 255/40/17 for rear and 205/50/16 for front on OEM wheels. Since I can not find the exact front size for Yokohama Neova AD07 (way better perform than Bridgestone S-03) becaue they don't make 215/45/16.

I just had mine replaced to the above sizes 2 weeks ago and I have no problem with TCS. However, the overall height is a bit taller than before!!!
 
nsxtypet said:
Try with 255/40/17 for rear and 205/50/16 for front on OEM wheels.
.
.
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I just had mine replaced to the above sizes 2 weeks ago and I have no problem with TCS.
On a '91-93, those sizes are 4.3 percent larger in front, and 0.7 percent larger in the rear. The TCS will probably work fine when all four tires are new. However, the rears will wear faster than the fronts; when the rears are well worn, you may find that that is enough to cause problems with the TCS.

Those sizes should not cause TCS problems on a '94-04 NSX, because the stock front tire on the '94-04 is larger than on the '91-93.
 
nsxtasy said:
On a '91-93, those sizes are 4.3 percent larger in front, and 0.7 percent larger in the rear. The TCS will probably work fine when all four tires are new. However, the rears will wear faster than the fronts; when the rears are well worn, you may find that that is enough to cause problems with the TCS.

Those sizes should not cause TCS problems on a '94-04 NSX, because the stock front tire on the '94-04 is larger than on the '91-93.


Hmm.... interesting. I guess that might explain why I had minor (very minor) TCS problems with 16/17 OEM wheels with stock size tires on my 91 NSX. But with the driving I like to do, I just pulled the panel off from behind the driver seat and just unplugged the 3 plugs to the TCS computer. Now it doesn't fight against me with my driving style, nor does the light on the dash ever come on :)

On a side note, the TCS was messing with my ALB ( :confused: ) and would throw both CELs and the car would get very sluggish, as if it was in a limp mode. But after disconnecting the TCS computer, never had another ALB problem yet.
 
Newman said:
Hmm.... interesting. I guess that might explain why I had minor (very minor) TCS problems with 16/17 OEM wheels with stock size tires on my 91 NSX.
I've never had any TCS problems with OEM 16"/17" tires on my '91 NSX.

The front '94-01 size is larger than the front '91-93 size, but the ratio only changes by 3.0 percent - not enough to cause TCS problems, even when the rears wear, in my experience.
 
Newman said:
But with the driving I like to do, I just pulled the panel off from behind the driver seat and just unplugged the 3 plugs to the TCS computer. Now it doesn't fight against me with my driving style, nor does the light on the dash ever come on :)

I'd be interested to know why you chose disabling the TCS the "hard" way ("hard" as in hardware) instead of using the dash button (the "soft" way) ? thanks for sharing
 
I have the same problem here regarding the availability of the tires (Michelin). Would it be fine if I use 205/50R16 front and 255/40R17 rear in the long run? Would it affect my TCS? Need the answer urgently as I am getting those tomorrow.

nsxtypet said:
Try with 255/40/17 for rear and 205/50/16 for front on OEM wheels. Since I can not find the exact front size for Yokohama Neova AD07 (way better perform than Bridgestone S-03) becaue they don't make 215/45/16.

I just had mine replaced to the above sizes 2 weeks ago and I have no problem with TCS. However, the overall height is a bit taller than before!!!
 
Jin1976 said:
Would it be fine if I use 205/50R16 front and 255/40R17 rear in the long run? Would it affect my TCS?
I would NOT recommend those sizes. The front is 4.3 percent larger than '91 stock and the rear is 0.7 percent larger than stock. The TCS will work when the tires are new, but as the rear tires wear down quicker than the front, you might encounter TCS problems. You need a front size (e.g. 215/45-16) whose outer diameter is closer to the 205/50-15 stock size.
 
I've dug through the forum archives and...

I still need a bit of help on my tires sizes with 1991 with OEM 16/17's (not 15/16's) and I'd like the TCS to behave properly.

I also need taller tires on my OEM 16/17's, so I can better avoid the rocks that litter the roadway during the frequent rains. In some cases they are evenly spread on both sides of the roadway and unless I want to get out and clear large swathes: I'll need taller tires.


The discussed tire sizes to make the TCS happy are given in a ratio/percentage of the diameter of the intended tire in relation to the stock diameter size tire?

Is there a better relationship/ratio that can be described as the diameter of the front tires being a smaller percentage of the diameter of the rear tires?

While on the TCS on the 91-93: Has anybody snapped in a newer computer? Anybody "chip" these yet?

appreciate any support given (even to other links that I missed),

Drew
 
The TCS operates using the difference between the front and rear outer diameters of the tires. If that difference varies more than 5 percent from stock, the TCS will not function properly. There are other things that can affect that difference - for example, the difference in tread depth between a new tire and a tire that needs to be replaced (treadwear indicator bars flat across) results in a difference in outer diameter of around 2 percent. For this reason, I generally recommend that the front to rear difference be kept within 3.5 percent of stock, so that there are no problems even as the tires wear at one end or the other.

There are two different ways to use this percentage figure to look at changes to the tire sizes to determine whether the TCS will function properly.

Method 1: Percentage difference at each end

One way is to take the percentage differences from the stock sizes at each end, and subtract them. For example, if you use front tires that are 3 percent larger than stock, and rear tires that are 3 percent smaller than stock, you are changing the ratio of front-to-rear outer diameters by 6 percent, and the TCS will not work.

Method 2: Ratio of rear to front

The other way is to calculate the ratio of the front diameter to the rear diameter. If the stock rear size is 7.7 percent larger than the stock front size, and you want to keep that ratio within 3.5 percent of stock, then you need to choose a rear size whose outer diameter is 4.2-11.2 percent larger than stock.

Either method will work.

Now, let's take the second question first.

Zennsx said:
Nxtasy,I've entered my stock 15-16" wheels into the tire calculator,(205/50/15)-(225/50/16)the difference is 7.7%. Cant it be said that 7.7% is optimal?

I hesitate to use the word "optimal" because that implies that you must hit that number on the nose. As noted above, any difference from 4.2 to 11.2 percent should allow the TCS to work. Depending on what you are doing with your tires and wheels, there may be some sizes whose ratio is not 7.7 percent, but which falls within that range. For example, lots of folks get 17"/18" wheels, with 215/40-17 and 265/35-18 tires. The ratio for those tire sizes is 6.4 percent. It's not 7.7 percent, but it's about as optimal as you can get with those wheel sizes. Hope that makes sense (and I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm nitpicking about wording, as that is not my intent).

Also note that the 7.7 percent figure only applies to the '91-93 NSX. The ratio of the stock rear to front outer diameters is 4.6 percent for the '94-01 and 5.3 percent for the '02-05. This explains why you need to do the calculations for your particular year NSX; there are some tire sizes which will cause problems for one model year NSX but not for another year.

drew said:
I still need a bit of help on my tires sizes with 1991 with OEM 16/17's (not 15/16's) and I'd like the TCS to behave properly.

I also need taller tires on my OEM 16/17's, so I can better avoid the rocks that litter the roadway during the frequent rains.
The first question I would ask is whether your car's suspension has been lowered. If you are not sure, there is a procedure in the service manual for measuring the car's ride height (page 18-6 of the 1991 manual, which is shown on page 651 of the .pdf file, which you can find here; I'm not sure if the measurement noted there is the same for '94-05 NSXs, so those with later cars might want to check their own year's service manual). If your car has been lowered, then I would recommend raising it back to the stock ride height, rather than using oversized tires to gain ride height. If it has been lowered with Bilstein shocks on the lowering perch, you can re-install them on the other perch for the stock ride height. If it has been lowered with aftermarket springs, you should be able to find used stock springs cheap in the marketplace forums, from folks who have replaced theirs with aftermarket (you may even be able to arrange a swap with someone).

Beyond that, I have no specific recommendations regarding oversized tires to raise the car's ride height higher than stock. In the front of the NSX, in particular, tires with an outer diameter larger than stock tend to rub in the wheel well liners. Also, a ride height higher than stock may have a harmful effect to the car's aerodynamics at higher speeds. So those are concerns that you would need to consider before doing so. But as noted above, I would check the car's ride height first, as it would be better to raise a lowered car back to a stock ride height using the suspension rather than the tire sizes.

HTH
 
My car has not been lowered, I have newish 1995 springs/shocks all around which actually lifted the body up a bit.

Are people disabling the TCS when they are installing these wheel combo's that are filling up the wheel-well?

Drew

/I understand handling will suffer, but last year I ended up dredging across a mud slide or two...the front end plowed the mud and the rear brace did an outstanding job as a leveling device; collecting the remaining mud. It was either that or get a hotel for the next 4 days while they cleared the streets. (For those who don't know: slides happen about 2-4 months after the rains have stopped. So it might be a great sunny day and you'll come back to impassable roads.)
//maybe I should consider some sort of active suspension?
 
drew said:
Are people disabling the TCS when they are installing these wheel combo's that are filling up the wheel-well?
Most people are using tires that keep the outer diameter close to stock, even folks getting 17"/18" and 18"/19" wheels. They usually "fill up the wheel well" by lowering the car (and the larger wheels help that perception with less rubber visible, even though the outer diameter of the tires remains the same).

A few others are getting tires that are slightly larger than stock, but (a) they do so for both ends of the car, so that the front-to-rear ratio stays within the TCS limits, and/or (b) they do so for their track tires, for track use when they keep the TCS turned off anyway. Also, we're typically talking about differences in ride height of one or two tenths of an inch (e.g. the difference between 215/35-18 and 225/35-18, two popular front sizes, represents a difference of 0.14 inch in ride height), and that difference is enough to cause some folks to rub in the front. As another example, some people are using 235/40-17 track tires on the front of their car for track use, and it does indeed rub - yet that's an increase in ride height of only 0.3 inch compared with the much more commonly-used 215/40-17 front size which doesn't rub.

drew said:
maybe I should consider some sort of active suspension?
Maybe. I don't know anything about its availability for the NSX.
 
I wouldn't push my NSX through a mud slide.
 
Hi Ken,

I have an interesting situation to run by you in regard to this subject.

I have a customer car early 1991 with Front 225/45ZR16 Rear 245/40ZR17.

I was under the impression that this is about as close to stock as you can get, they are Kuhmo Ecsta tires. The car came to me with many issues, including a bad wheel speed sensor that shut the TCS abd ABS down completely. After repairing it, on the test drive the TCS light flickers, and the throttle very subtly is getting backed off by the TCS.

These tire sizes seem acceptable but I am wondering if the brand has some specific alteration to the actual diameters, affecting the overall diameter ratio?

Sounds like Newman's problem above. I was under the impression that the early TCS systems were less tolerant of variances.

Your thoughts?

Thanks,
LarryB
 
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