Thinking on Window Rail Grease

[Honcho]

As I get ready to clean and re-grease my window rails, I've started to really study the lubrication side of it. The most extreme example is at T3TEC in Japan, where they subject new rails to some kind of PTFE or other hard lubricant treatment prior to greasing (called a "Tough Ram" treatment). This results in apparently a very long lasting rail system.

http://t3tec.jp/product

The traditional advice here on Prime has been to stick to the tried-and-true solution of the Honda Urea grease, with the understanding that it is a long-lasting grease with good moisture resistance. In other words, perfect for the window rails inside the doors. However, we also know that the urea grease dries out after about 5-7 years and the leftover carrier turns into this gummy, sticky mess that not only slows the windows down, but also must be 100% cleaned off of the rails before re-greasing, requiring removal of the rails from the doors, which then requires the awful window-alignment service to be performed. Lubrication technology has come a long way since 1989 and I've been thinking about possible alternatives that would eliminate the need to open our doors every 5 years and suffer through the miserable window alignment procedure. Basically, we need a grease with the following characteristics:

• wide temperature range
• good moisture resistance
• good "wet" lubrication properties
• leaves no sticky/gummy mess when aged/dried out
• leaves behind lubricating materials as it dries out (PTFE/graphite)

I've found 3 possible solutions and would like the community's input:

1. SuperLube Synthetic Grease with Syncolon (PTFE) - https://www.super-lube.com/multi-purpose-synthetic-grease-with-syncolon-ptfe

This grease appears to be a full synthetic carrier impregnated with PTFE powder. It is specifically described as "...does not evaporate or form gummy deposits. It will not melt or separate." The operating temperature range is impressive: -45 F to 450 F, much more than our window rails will ever see. Still, is has a petroleum-based carrier and I suppose there is a chance that it could still dry out on the rails. Though, it would leave PTFE behind, which should still provide some lubrication better than the urea grease.

2. SuperLube Silicone Lubricating Grease with Syncolon (PTFE) - https://www.super-lube.com/silicone-lubricating-grease-with-syncolon-ptfe

This stuff takes the petroleum carrier out of the equation completely and replaces it with silicone, which in theory should last forever. However, the lubricity of the silicone is probably much less than a true petroleum-based grease, so the windows might not operate as quickly. However, this also has PTFE and, being silicone, has excellent water-resistance. I suspect if I put it in the rails, it would stay there forever.

3. Permatex Anti-Seize Lubricant - https://www.permatex.com/products/lubricants/specialty-lubricants-anti-seize/permatex-anti-seize-lubricant-2/

This is kind of an outside-the-box idea, but it could work. This anti-sieze relies on three hard-lubricants (aluminum, copper and graphite) to provide long-term coverage. But, the carrier is a parrafin/petroleum-based grease, so there is a chance it could dry out and gunk up like the urea grease.

Finally, I've noticed that [MENTION=25737]Kaz-kzukNA1[/MENTION] and most of the Japan-based NSX specialists use a urea grease that is very dark gray in color versus the greenish version here in the states. I strongly suspect this JDM urea is impregnated with graphite and/or moly, since it closely resembles the Aeroshell moly grease I use on my AR-15 rifles. Also, if you've ever looked at the factory-original grease on the NSX, it's this gray stuff- not the green grease. Curious about folks' thoughts on the above, since I'd love not to have to re-grease my windows again.

 

[Valhalla]

Very interested to find what you finally decide to do. I will probably end up removing my windows to fully clean out the old grease and then upgrade to the SOS window glides. I have a new driver side regulator to replace anyway. So the old "while I'm there" adage applies. These have built in Teflon lubrication which should aid in rail movement ease. I was thinking of a silicone spray on the rails with these new guides. But interested in what you find out.

 

[Old Guy]

A quandary.

The window track / glass guide does not strike me as an area that requires what we normally think of as a high performance lubricant. The problems are not a lubrication failure; but, as you infer an ageing failure when the lubricant (typically paraffins in conventional grease) evaporates / disappears leaving the thickeners behind ("sticky mess"). In this particular application, a long life base lubricant would be the hot ticket; but, most lubrication guides seem to regard long life as 2-3 years at most as opposed to forever if you are a wishful NSX owner.

There are lots of greases based on siloxane oils with various thickeners including PTFE like the ones you linked. Molykote which is a Dow Corning product line offers one listed as a paste - M77.

Dow Corning Molykote M77 Paste Grease Lubricant Lube Silicone Oil + Moly MoS2, 1 oz (28g) Container: Industrial Lubricants: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

One of the attractive features is that they claim that as the carrier volatizes it does not leave a residue; but, still retains the moly dry sliding film. Got your cake and eat it too! Priced similarly to the little tubs of Honda Urea grease. Dow also offers a huge range of 'pastes' that look like potential candidates.

PASTES (ulbrich-group.com)

This one is also appealing with all the correct words about permanent lubrication and virtually no residue. Rather expensive and hard to find for retail consumers.

MOLYKOTE U-N (ulbrich-group.com)

There are a bunch of greases using silicone oils or other oils as the lubricant and PTFE as the thickener (which is what turns it into a grease?). The siloxane oil based greases may be better if the oil base does not disappear as fast as the paraffin oil based greases. I have used silicone based greases and have noticed that it does seem to disappear as it ages when exposed to air; but, it does not seem to leave an obvious residue. The greases you linked may be candidates if as they age they do not leave a significant residue. Even better if the leave a PTFE residue behind which continues to provide some lubrication.

The various easily available spray on PTFE dry lubricants look appealing; but, I remain doubtful about their long term persistence .

As a final note on your 3rd candidate, Permatex, I wouldn't. I have a rather ancient tub of Permatex silver (250 ml goes a long long ways) and I have noticed that as it ages the oi base does separate from the solids. The oil does mix back into the solids; but, I expect that if applied to the tracks and exposed to air the oils will eventually separate out and oxidize / disappear. The remaining solids may approximate your sticky mess.

 

[Miner]

I was thinking a solid film lubricant might be a good choice, as long as foreign debris that would scrape it off could be minimized. If I remember they do need to be applied and baked on (medium heat), so the rails would need to fit in an oven.

Choice of lubricants is at best a voodoo science it seems. Sometimes a person specs a grease or lube after careful consideration, and other times the tub on the shelf that happens to be available gets sourced.

Although not as evolutionary as tire rubber, lubes have evolved since Honda developed the NSX.

 

[Big McLargeHuge]

Good thread. My 2 cents for longevity would be a grease with high oxidation resistance/low evaporation (per ASTM D972, make sure testing temp is the same) and low water washout (per ASTM D1264). It would be hard to find a grease without a temperature range that's more than enough for a car door.

It seems like most are a silicone & lithium thickener or calcium sulfonate based. For the former I would point to MOLYKOTE® 33 or MOLYKOTE® 44 with low evap/high oxd resist/low washout, and are NLGI Grade 1, thinner, for lighter-load roller/slider applications. That might allow the windows to move a bit faster and less likely for grease to cake up. Those are significantly more expensive though, not that it really matters in this case.

For the latter I'd say NANO Pro MT NDT14MG or Amsoil Dominator (NLGI Grade 2, thicker, more for high load bearing applications). There's a guy on FB that keeps bringing up the Pro MT grease for the tracks so it must work well for him.

I like the look of your #1 ) SuperLube Synthetic Grease with Syncolon (PTFE), it seems to have all of the properties you'd want plus the PTFE additive. And you can eat it if you really want. If I was going to choose one besides the Honda urea, that might be the one I go with.

 

[Honcho]

All great responses! The Molykote 33/44 is interesting, but I'm not sure how the lithium thickener will perform after the carrier evaporates away. I compared the 22-hour evaporation rates (at 100C) of the two Super Lube greases:

Petroleum-Based: <1%
Silicone-Based: 0.4%

That's pretty close. I may go with the silicone-based version as a test. Reading more of Kaz's posts on this issue, he noted that rail warping is the real culprit of slow windows. That means to really fix this, I need to replace my guide rails and regulators. Since I'm effectively out of budget for this project, this means practically that, no matter what, I'm going to have to do the window alignment at least one more time lol. I'll throw the old rails back in there with the SuperLube PTFE/Silicone and see how long they last. Maybe I can get a few years before I have to spend the $1,000+ to replace the rails. Plus, I can be a guniea pig for the community.

 

[Old Guy]

I have read Kaz's comments on the window speed question and his observations about bending of the rails causing increased drag being the root cause of the slow windows. In certain circumstances that may be correct. However, I counter his comments with my observation that after rebuilding the regulators on my car with the Hugo kit (including his new guides) and cleaning and lubing the regulator mechanism it resulted in a huge improvement in window speed and reduction in noise during operation. While I had one of the regulators out for repair on one of the doors I had cause to un-tape the glass and lower it down into the door. I remember thinking that if I accidentally let the glass slip it would definitely crash to the bottom of the door because there was no significant drag offered by the guides sliding in the tracks. Given the free movement of the guides in the track I don't recall being motivated to try to do any type of maintenance on the tracks.

Bent tracks would be a contributor to slow window speed. However, my experience suggests that they are not the only contributor. As you assemble your doors, before the regulators are installed do a slide test of the glass up and down in the tracks to determine if there is material drag. If there is no significant drag then it is not obvious to me why you would replace the tracks. I might be inclined to replace the slider assemblies on the glass that fit into the track because I have heard of them breaking.

Your $1000+ price for the replacement tracks must be for those T3TEC tracks. The 4 OEM tracks for the NSX should come to less than $400 plus shipping.

 

[Honcho]

I have read Kaz's comments on the window speed question and his observations about bending of the rails causing increased drag being the root cause of the slow windows. In certain circumstances that may be correct. However, I counter his comments with my observation that after rebuilding the regulators on my car with the Hugo kit (including his new guides) and cleaning and lubing the regulator mechanism it resulted in a huge improvement in window speed and reduction in noise during operation. While I had one of the regulators out for repair on one of the doors I had cause to un-tape the glass and lower it down into the door. I remember thinking that if I accidentally let the glass slip it would definitely crash to the bottom of the door because there was no significant drag offered by the guides sliding in the tracks. Given the free movement of the guides in the track I don't recall being motivated to try to do any type of maintenance on the tracks.

Bent tracks would be a contributor to slow window speed. However, my experience suggests that they are not the only contributor. As you assemble your doors, before the regulators are installed do a slide test of the glass up and down in the tracks to determine if there is material drag. If there is no significant drag then it is not obvious to me why you would replace the tracks.

Your $1000+ price for the replacement tracks must be for those T3TEC tracks. The 4 OEM tracks for the NSX should come to less than $400 plus shipping.

Very interesting- I will definitely do the glass test (carefully lol)! I'm also going to use some Aeroshell 33MS on the cable itself and the plastic guide, since it is loaded with moly and there is a lot of tension/pressure on the guides as the cable moves over them. According to Kaz, cost would also include two new regulators though, since the attached rails are not sold separately. That puts you over the $1k mark.

 

[Old Guy]

I think I have some misunderstanding. I was assuming that we were talking about just the two rails / tracks in the door that position the glass. When I read Kaz's comments, I thought he was referring to just distortion of those two rails / tracks. Rereading your comments I take it you are now including the track that the regulator mechanism travels on as a potential candidate for distortion. If that is the case then new tracks for the window and regulators for both doors is going to put you north of $1000.

When I did Hugo's kit on my regulator it included new PTFE slides for the part of the regulator that moves up and down the regulator track. When I installed the slides I manually slid the mechanism up and down the track and there was no binding of the mechanism on the track. I also powered the regulator up on the workbench to make sure that it moved smoothly before installing it in the door. Maybe I am just lucky with having no bent parts.

When you do your window work, be sure to lubricate that little white bobbin that slides on a spindle on the part of the regulator mechanism that is attached to the glass. When in position it need to be able to move sideways smoothly as the window goes up and down. I buttoned up my doors, did a test and immediately got a loud popping noise caused by the bobbin sticking on the spindle and then all of a sudden releasing. Had to go back in and apply some grease to the spindle to fix the problem.

 

[ShawnOT]

@Honcho did you end up with any conclusions on a good alternative to the urea grease? I currently have my driver door pulled apart and ready for some grease but the genuine Honda Urea grease seems to be on backorder. I can probably wait it out for a few more weeks if that's ultimately the best stuff to use, but if that's on backorder for a long time or if there is a good alternative, maybe I'll have to go that route.

Thanks

 

[Honcho]

It's been a few years since I used the SuperLube PTFE silicone grease and the windows are still super smooth. it has not dried out at all.

 

[ShawnOT]

It's been a few years since I used the SuperLube PTFE silicone grease and the windows are still super smooth. it has not dried out at all.

That's good to know. Thanks for the info!

 

[Valhalla]

Thanks for the updates. I need to pull my driver side door apart (again) and research the binding/slow movement. While there I'll remove the tracks to clean them completly and then add some of your magic SuperLube. Yes i will check free movement of the glass before and after surgery.

 

[Honcho]

Thanks for the updates. I need to pull my driver side door apart (again) and research the binding/slow movement. While there I'll remove the tracks to clean them completly and then add some of your magic SuperLube. Yes i will check free movement of the glass before and after surgery.

It's the tracks and the window bracket on the regulator (the part that bolts to the glass). The tracks get caked with dried grease and the plastic ball pivot on the window bracket dries out and pops every time you move the window. The only real way to fix is clean the rails completely (this job really sucks- that old grease is like welded to the metal) and re-lube. Has to be done out of the car, sadly.

 

[Valhalla]

It's the tracks and the window bracket on the regulator (the part that bolts to the glass). The tracks get caked with dried grease and the plastic ball pivot on the window bracket dries out and pops every time you move the window. The only real way to fix is clean the rails completely (this job really sucks- that old grease is like welded to the metal) and re-lube. Has to be done out of the car, sadly.

explatives View attachment 178697

Yep, done it before. Arizona heat really bakes these. Probably a full day of explatives and beer per door. I am so looking forward to this. NOT

 

[Valhalla]

Update: Done. And I was able to clean the window frame rails while still in the car. It helps to be a contorsionist! Lots of rags and mineral spirits and the rails were good as new. I had to rebuild the driver side regulator and upgraded to Hugo's kit and used @Honcho selection of Super Lube. Adjusted the windows (only took a day each side) and then treated the rubber trims to a ShinEtsu bath. They seem to pretty happy now.

As a side note, I got my replacement parts at SOS. Talking with Chris, he states that the reason for most of the regulator and frame rail distortion is from the regulator binding while in the full up position causing the rails to flex. His suggestion was to leave a small crack at the top versus fully up. That way there is less pressure on the regulator and rails. Makes sense, especially if you need to make adjustments to where your window sits versus the door, A and B pillers and roof line.

 

[MrHugo]

The job does not sound fun. I want to clean my rails, re-grease, and install new regulators and Hugo kit, but I am not looking forward to bloody knuckles and adjusting the window. Adjusting the window sounds like a pain in the butt.

 

[Valhalla]

The job does not sound fun. I want to clean my rails, re-grease, and install new regulators and Hugo kit, but I am not looking forward to bloody knuckles and adjusting the window. Adjusting the window sounds like a pain in the butt.

It is a very time consuming and frustrating job. Every adjustment forces an adjustment at a differnt location. Just plan on a full day per side. You may get it done in less time, but then you might not! No easy way around it. But i do like the speed and ease that the windows move at now. That was satisfying.

 

[Ponyboy]

This topic deserves a "Project Farm" style comparison test of the various window lubricants. I'm planning on going through the windows and doors again this Winter.

IMHO, I'd gladly suffer a fractionally slower window if it means I can delay the window adjustment process for as long as possible.

 

[Honcho]

This topic deserves a "Project Farm" style comparison test of the various window lubricants. I'm planning on going through the windows and doors again this Winter.

IMHO, I'd gladly suffer a fractionally slower window if it means I can delay the window adjustment process for as long as possible.

I think part of the challenge is that all the greases work great when fresh. It's what happens after 5, 7, 10 years. Even though my car is only recently completed, the PTFE grease has been in there for about 3 years now and windows are still super fast.

 

[MrHugo]

I think part of the challenge is that all the greases work great when fresh. It's what happens after 5, 7, 10 years. Even though my car is only recently completed, the PTFE grease has been in there for about 3 years now and windows are still super fast.

Lets have a window race!

I agree with Ponyboy, I will delay it as long as possible, I have delayed it for 14 years already since i bought the car.... still works.

 

[Ponyboy]

I think part of the challenge is that all the greases work great when fresh. It's what happens after 5, 7, 10 years. Even though my car is only recently completed, the PTFE grease has been in there for about 3 years now and windows are still super fast.

I wonder if the best alternative method to waiting for time to lapse would be to measure effectiveness after a certain number of heat/cold cycles for each lubricant. Time in one region may not affect the lubricant's properties as much as time in another (i.e. California's more temperate climate may not affect a given lubricant as much Florida's more humid climate).

Just spit balling.

 

[Old Guy]

The job does not sound fun. I want to clean my rails, re-grease, and install new regulators and Hugo kit, but I am not looking forward to bloody knuckles and adjusting the window. Adjusting the window sounds like a pain in the butt.

Fist off, adjusting the door glass is a pain in the butt. No doubt about that.

Just to be clear, do you have new regulators and you are planning to install the Hugo kit on those new regulators? If that is correct, keep in mind that the Hugo install is a little bit like major surgery. You are pulling the regulator apart and modifying stuff and there is a small probability of things going wrong. Personally, I would be inclined to install Hugo's sliders and leave the pulleys alone. Keep the pulleys in a zip loc bag and 10-15 years from now you can install the Hugo kit pulleys when you are pulling out the regulators once again to clean and re grease them. Just a thought.

Glass adjustment and regulator replacement are two separate and relatively independent activities. You can R&R the regulator without fiddling with the glass adjustment. The only glass adjustment that you might want to check following a regulator replacement is the stop which sets the height of the glass in the closed position.

With the regulator removed from the door, you can check the condition of the two rails / guides / tracks for the glass by un taping the glass and carefully raising and lowering it in the tracks. This will give you an idea as to how gummed up the tracks are. It may also tell you whether your tracks are twisted, a not unknown problem, in which case cleaning and greasing may not yield much of an improvement. I think Kaz posted on Prime or the NSX GB site about twisted tracks and I recall the conclusion seemed to be twisted tracks = new tracks. The other thing that manually raising and lowering the glass will tell you is whether the slider things that fit inside the tracks are bunged. If the sliders are bunged then the glass has to come out.

From personal experience, I would avoid adjusting the door glass alignment unless absolutely necessary. When I did my Hugo kit, I did not remove the tracks. I used a squeeze bottle and a 4 l container of solvent with a long handled brush to clean / flush the tracks (draining out the bottom of the door) and then re greased in situ. This definitely does not do as good a job as removing the tracks.

If you follow the service manual, you can theoretically remove and replace the tracks without doing a glass alignment. You do this by creating registration marks for the mounting bolt and recording the number of turns on the track mounting bolts. That is the theory. I don't know how well that works in practise.

After I did my Hugo kit, I went back into the doors to replace my rear door sashes which had torn rubber boots. This required removal of the rear window tracks. My torn rubber boots were caused by an alignment problem on the glass which set the glass too far back. With the windows up I had very little clearance between the glass and the front of the B pillar which was stretching the boots. This appears to have been a problem that existed since the car rolled off the factory floor.

I went through the complete glass alignment process for the T roof as described in the service manual. To be honest, the T roof alignment description in the SM has some gaps in it compared to the coupe glass alignment. I got my glass position to agree with the factory service manual measurement (or as best as I could interpret the SM procedure) which fixed the boot stretch problem. However, this did increase the wind noise around the windows. I believe Kaz had done a post about this. My recollection of his point was that if you go and change the glass alignment with existing door gaskets you are likely going to get an increase in wind noise because the original gaskets will have developed a set in the rubber. Based upon my experience, unless you need to change the alignment to fix an obvious problem (my torn window boots) don't go fiddling with the glass alignment to try and improve things. Unless you are also installing new door gaskets you may have so undesirable side effects.

 

[gundamz168]

Thanks @Honcho for the info on an alternative to urea grease.

 

[RYU]

Honcho's SuperLube PTFE silicone grease seems like a good alternative to the Urea grease I was going to use to rebuild my shifter linkages. You know... Those plastic pieces. Does anyone think this is a bad idea?