Track Advice Needed

[quiksilver55]

Well guys, I've been bitten, and am now on a mission.

I have a mostly stock '91 NSX with the following modifications:

- Taitec GT Lightweight exhaust
- KW V3 Coilovers
- '02 wheels w/Dunlop Z1 Star Specs (215/255) (5mm spacers up front)
- Downforce air intake scoop
- Dali swaybars
- Powerslot rotors, Hawk HP+ pads, SS lines, Motul RBF 600
- Downforce front brake air deflectors (FRP)

While at a NASA HPDE event last month at Nola Motorsports Park (2.75 mile course), I was able to dial in a 2:10 by the end of the weekend. A father/son were running 2:00 in a GTR (street tires) and ACR Viper (Hoosiers). I know their cars CAN be much faster, but it prompted me to seek a goal of 2 minutes within a year.

So..... without major modifications such as FI or BBK, what would you recommend for the greatest improvements? I'm still working on improving the driver, but with that aside....

I have the following items on my short list:
- Track dedicated tires/wheels (R compound or slicks)
- Wedsport TC105N (17x8 +38 / 18x9.5 +35)
- SoS supertune ECU

What low(ish) cost items am I missing? Recommendations or alternatives on the above items?

Here's a video for your viewing pleasure:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vRSu2feDq9A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[dquarasr2]

Glad you are hooked! Welcome to the slippery slope!

I'll apologize up front: I don't know the track and I don't know what a really good time is. Do you have any other reference points? Any other NSXs or have you ever had a Very Good Driver drive your car?

Any data acquisition? Reason I'm asking, and please, don't take this the wrong way, are you maximizing apex speeds? It's hard to tell from the video, especially since we can't see your hands, but it seems like 2:00 might be available without doing anything different to the car. In fact, you'll probably get replies here that will say this: don't upgrade the car until you're driving to its limits as it is now, then, once you've plateaued, then think about what "fixes" are needed to drop time further.

I know, not what you asked. :frown:

OK, then, actually trying to answer what you asked:
- How did the brakes hold up? More aggressive pads can allow you to go deeper into braking zones.
- R-Compound tires can probably give you a fairly large drop in times, arguably the largest drop of any single item.
- How did the car behave? Understeer? Oversteer? Neutral? Might be able to dial in more speed with adjusting tire pressures and wake up the handling with a good alignment. What alignment are you running?

Let the dialog begin! :biggrin:

 

[docjohn]

welcome to what can be a very rewarding hobby.looking at your mods list you are doing great.I am assuming you are a novice:smile: I would stay on your current tires and work on you until you are as fast as comparable cars with known excellent drivers.I stayed on streets for 3 seasons until I could keep up with the other guys on R comps and slicks.Your target cars of the acr and gtr are quite honestly in another class of track performance,drivers being equal.I don't know your track but looking at your vids you have a ways to go with lines and carrying adequate speed thoughout.I can't tell how your footwork is because I could'nt hear your engine rev,but you need to be pretty much into vtec and above 7k rpm as much as possible on track out to maximize the nsx's performance.Get some coaching and keep working on it.Doing hpde alone or in a vacuum is a waste,get as much instruction as possible

 

[quiksilver55]

Exactly what I'm looking for, dialogue!

I'll be using Harry's Laptimer Pro at the next event for better info and hopefully a good view of my steering input. This video was taken with a Contour HD mounted to the front (top?) of the rear hatch. I hope to use both and splice for a much better video next time.

As a reference, I started off the weekend with a 2:18. I had run the 1.8 mile configuration before, but not the 2.8. After getting some good advice on the racing line in some sections, I'm very happy with how much I was able to shave in a day. I think the next 10 seconds will take some effort.

The car handled very well. Brakes didn't overheat, even on pretty heavy application after the straight and going into turn 3. I honestly don't remember what the alignment is set at, so there's probably some time to be gained there. Also, the KW V3's are set to the factory settings.

The car tended to understeer at the limit, but only slightly. I think I'm getting pretty close to the traction limit of the tires on high-speed corners.

As for wheels, I sold a set of TE-37's because they were too big for what I wanted (18x10.5 rear). I don't have enough power to need such big rears..... so I'm looking at keeping a set of tires and wheels at the track for "weaponizing" the car and using the '02+ wheels for the street. The Wedsports look like a good (light) option, but I'm not sure if those offsets may limit my tire choice (car is lower than stock, of course).

I don't know of any other NSX's that have run this course, but here are some NASA track records for the 2.75 mile course:

GTS3 - Paul Donovan 01:56.413 4/1/12
GTS4 - Harold Petit 01:47.328 6/23/12
GTS5 - John Crosby 01:46.020 6/23/12
Spec Miata - Mark Simmons 02:08.344 6/24/12
Spec Z - Richard Baldwin 01:57.008 4/1/12
AI - Wayne Caudle 02:04.929 4/1/12
PTB - Ted Haas 02:00.064 6/24/12
PTD - Eon Simon 02:02.799 6/23/12
PTE - Gareth Rebstock 02:07.049 6/24/12

 

[Kouki Monster]

it is hard to tell much from the video, you lines look fine. As said before
without data such as footwork throttle etc it is hard to disect. Look into ways of reducing weight this makes everything easier. Also alignment is key. Speak to the guys at your local track days and see who they use.

I think your set up looks great as it stands right now it is well sorted.

 

[quiksilver55]

Just to clarify, the 2:10 was on the 2.8 mile track configuration. The google search results are for the 1.8 mile configuration. No harm, no foul.

I've had instruction at another local track with an instructor who owns (owned) an NSX, but just for a day.

I've been working with one of the track directors (who also runs their speed shop) on fine-tuning my line using my videos. That's what cut my times by 8 seconds in a day.

I know the GTR and ACR are on another level, but the time they laid down that weekend should be attainable. (especially with tires)

I promise, I'm not as slow as it may sound, but definitely have room to grow.

 

[quiksilver55]

Here's a MUCH faster car running the same track configuration. Using the super-accurate youtube counter technique, looks like he's running a 1:44(ish).

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Wk2NO0TJfNs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Hrant]

Concur with what the others said. The lines seem ok but the second or third right hander your turn in is too short need to arc it a bit more to hit the later apex at full throttle - that is where the Z pulled on you for the balance of the straight.

Given the configuration of the track, especially with the nice S and a few hard sweepers, I think more aggressive sway bars (get the Dali track bars if you will do this more regularly) and non-compliant toe links (a must) would really help you before any additional mods.

 

[NSXDreamer2]

no spec miata could run faster than nsx in any big track layout. Looks like you have at least 2-3 seconds with your current hardware.

does the track have a great top speed? if it's not much over 140mph, a GT wing will help a lot with the mid corner stability and you can carry more speed into corners with more stable braking as well.

 

[quiksilver55]

I don't imagine I'll hit over 140 on the straight. I'm hitting around 130 before the braking point right now.

 

[Hapa88]

I concur with DocJohn, lines are a good starting point, but they need a little work.

For the most part I feel like you're early apexing...

Now I've never run this track, so I'm going mostly by the video (which is completely different than the actual feel of the track) and the apex & turn-in cones. Here are my comments for each turn starting on your 3rd lap which looks like your fastest.

Most of the time on a track there are 3 cones. The 1st cone is the turn in cone, the 2nd cone is the apex, and the 3 marks the end of the turn.

Now, I'm in no way an expert driver.. stuntman/Billy J would be that person, but I've done between 20-30 track events using both the NSX and a few other FWD cars.

With that in mind here are my suggestions:

7:16 on the video, your turn in looks a little too early. The cone on the left usually marks the beginning of the turn. Because of your early turn in, you end up slowing down slightly on exit so as to not go off track.

~7:22 I'd try to get further right to set up for the next left.
7:25 again you look like you early apexed that corner

7:33 I think you completely missed this corner, turn in was really really late here.. note the apex cone at ~7:35 and how far you are from it. The exit to this corner "seems" really wide which would allow you to do a much earlier turn in and carry that speed on the exit.

7:44 I'd be more to the left side of the track to set you up for the right hander.. Doing so (and apexing slightly later) will allow you to carry more speed through that corner and ultimately through the next straight section.

8:00 apex here looks really good

8:04 turned in too early, note the turn-in cone on the left.

8:23 turned in a tad early, but it's ok

8:30 - 8:44 a slightly later apex to each of these cones will probably allow you to carry a little more speed.

8:46-8:53 good

8:55 - you should hold the left a tad longer to get you more track left and set yourself up for the next right.

rest looks great!

Anyway, hope those comments help and don't actually make your time slower..

One last suggestion would be to mount the camera a little further forward so we can see the nose of the car and it's position. Or better yet, mount it inside so we can see your steering inputs! :smile:

 

[Hapa88]

As a cheaper alternative to the Wedsports, I'd suggest the TSW Interlagos Rotary Forged.

NSXDreamer2 and 1K2GO have the TSW Rotary Forged series wheels.

They are still light (16.8 lbs for a 17x7.5 and 19.9 lbs for a 18x9.5), they are super strong (using a spun forming technology), and they cost about 1/2 as much (~$950 a set). As a dedicated track set this is probably preferable if you're on a budget. You'll be able to beat on them and not worry about breaking or bending them.

 

[Sylvan]

As a cheaper alternative to the Wedsports, I'd suggest the TSW Interlagos Rotary Forged.

That's the wheel I'm going to get! In silver, though.

To OP:
I am pretty new to track driving, having only gotten into it a few years ago. I have maybe 9 or 10 track days under my belt. I know what it feels like to get bitten by the bug and want to keep going as often as you can, getting faster each time.

I would caution you to do some soul-searching and determine your true motivation for wanting to go faster. I know that it's fun hanging with or passing certain cars, but after little awhile I realized it's meaningless to be concerned with the lap times of other cars. In many cases it just means you spent more money or did more modifications. I think what you should be more concerned with is improving yourself as a driver, to become more consistent and safer around the track. If you are obsessing about obtaining a particular lap time, or being faster than such-and-such car, you may find yourself pushing too hard, and get into a really bad situation.

Remember that HPDEs are not competitions. You should be having fun, and learning to drive better and safer. The lap times will come down with experience, so just let it come naturally and don't force it.

 

[g3driver]

Something to consider when going to r comps is that you will need a accusump or dry sump because of the high g loading you will have with thoes tires. Also if you run in a hot climate (above 90f) your oil temps will be very high! I race in so cal and after I installed a oil temp gauge I was surprised to see out temps in the 270 range! With my star spec's I am about 4 sec of the leader times in hpde 4.

 

[nsxtasy]

I wouldn't bother with any other mods, for a while. Your driver skills will give you 100 percent of any gains in the short term, and 90 percent of gains in the long term. Once you get about 5-10K actual track miles under your belt - that's typically 25-50 events, but can vary - then at that point you may want to do some things to your car, but not until then. That point would be a good time to add R comps. The ECU won't do anything significant, and the wheels won't matter other than if you need a set to put R comps on.

Something to consider when going to r comps is that you will need a accusump or dry sump because of the high g loading you will have with thoes tires.

Absolutely NOT true.

 

[docjohn]

Something to consider when going to r comps is that you will need a accusump or dry sump because of the high g loading you will have with thoes tires. Also if you run in a hot climate (above 90f) your oil temps will be very high! I race in so cal and after I installed a oil temp gauge I was surprised to see out temps in the 270 range! With my star spec's I am about 4 sec of the leader times in hpde 4.

not true about the acusump,there are plenty of us on R comps who have 100's of events without one.If I was going to full slick with monoballs ect then i would do it.And in the end it may only buy you a few extra minutes,and most folks would not have enough forthought to shut it down that quick.Our cars in NA form rarely overheat at the track.those that do can often be traced back to some malfunction in the system such as air lock ect...

 

[g3driver]

True or not I am not willing to gamble on it with my motor. I run at willow springs and Fontana. Both have long high speed banked ovals with sustained 1 g turns. To me it's just insurance. Now saying that I stil have the Oem oil pump gear (on the list to upgrade)

Just my 0.02

 

[dquarasr2]

I concur with DocJohn, lines are a good starting point, but they need a little work.

For the most part I feel like you're early apexing...

. . . . .

Most of the time on a track there are 3 cones. The 1st cone is the turn in cone, the 2nd cone is the apex, and the 3 marks the end of the turn.

(Lots of good comments deleted)

When we put out cones for HPDE at Chin events, to be safe, we typically put them out there with pretty late turn-in points and pretty late apexes. This is intentional to prevent newbies from running out of room at exits. As the day goes on we typically instruct our students to adjust as needed, using the cones as landmarks only, not necessarily as absolutes. At the NASA events I've attended, there were NO cones; might be track- or region-dependent whether NASA uses cones as a standard.

I would need to review this video very carefully to determine if the turn-ins and apexes are indeed a little too early, but whatever, if you are having to continue to keep the wheel turned when you're thinking you should be unwinding and starting to feed throttle, you apexed too early. Or, if you are having to back out of the throttle because you will run out of room, you apexed too early.

For momentum cars (think Miata) I don't mind an early turn-in AS LONG AS IT IS A SLOW turn-in and does not result in an earlier apex. I've watched world-class drivers at pro races very carefully and turn-ins are very early and very slow so weight transfer is incredibly smooth. This can translate well to cars not considered momentum cars when applied correctly, as long as the line used does not pinch off the point in the turn where the throttle can be hammered, particularly with a high-HP car.

Bottom line: adjust turn-in points and apexes using hard data.

 

[quiksilver55]

Great input guys! Glad to hear my current setup makes sense.

Hapa88, thanks for the very detailed breakdown of what has been my fastest lap so far. I'll definitely try not to early apex as often next time. The extra wide line at the corner at 7:33 (which I agree looks totally missed) was on the recommendation of the track director. He specifically said to ignore the first apex to hold more speed on a wider line and then stay centered coming out of the left hander (following heavy braking tracks). At least, that's what he said the racing line has been for the very fast guys.

Sounds like some weight loss (for the car... too late for me) may be helpful. I've been hesitant since I had the car corner balanced as is, but I should be able to shed the spare and a few other odds and ends and re-calibrate the balance.

Hrant, will the non-compliant toe-links allow me to set a stock alignment down the road if I no longer track the car? (I expect to move in about a year (military), not sure if there will be a track nearby)

Again, thanks for your input so far. I value every little bit you can send my way. Hopefully I'll have some better video for you next time.

 

[Hrant]

The non-compliant toe link helps you better feel and hence anticipate with both the seat/butt and steering the potential limits of your traction before you get into a wild snap oversteer by eliminating the "compliance" (at the limit kick back). The non-compliant toe link with stiffer sway bars (less body roll) will give you more real planted confidence. Check this blurb from CT Engineering

As for the alignment, no issues there. You can adjust the alignment back to street driving.

On a side note, while some of the posts above are valid - and yes you will need a baffled oil pan and potentially Accusump "if" you will be tracking with R or slick tires and have long sweepers, but frankly they are a bit over the top at this stage if this is only your first track. Like docjohn said, some of us tracked for years on mostly OEM set-up/tires with minor tweaks (sway bar, modest suspension like the Bilsteins; better pads/Motul) until we appreciated the limits of what we had - both in terms of driver talent and vehicle; the former often being the culprit hence the slippery slope of modding to compensate the lack of ...... :tongue:

 

[SFNSXguy]

On a side note, while some of the posts above are valid - and yes you will need a baffled oil pan and potentially Accusump "if" you will be tracking with R or slick tires and have long sweepers, but frankly they are a bit over the top at this stage if this is only your first track. Like docjohn said, some of us tracked for years on mostly OEM set-up/tires with minor tweaks (sway bar, modest suspension like the Bilsteins; better pads/Motul) until we appreciated the limits of what we had - both in terms of driver talent and vehicle; the former often being the culprit hence the slippery slope of modding to compensate the lack of ...... :tongue:

Nice post Hrant...

After over 50 (yes, over fifty) years of tracking all kinds of production, formula and sports-racing cars I can't emphasize the importance of seat time. Save the $$ car mods for much later. To be honest, I'd rather buy a dedicated track car than screw up the NSX too much -- and you'd probably save some money too.
Just have fun!

 

[NSXDreamer2]

I have to bring the well beaten topics of R comp vs street tires discussion out again:

Z1, AD07/08, RE11 and other newer street tires offering are not that far off some popular R comp choices as RA1, NT01 and even the R888. However, the track tires do sustain better with holding more consistent temp, grip, and could help the logitivity of the tires. (for instance, you could get a set of NT01/RA1 cheaper than RE11 or AD08) The cons of having track tire is always the logistics of carrying it to the track. I live 30 miles away from my local track, so it usually not a problem just slap them on the car n drive there on a dry day. I strongly believed having a set of R comp and a set of nice wet performance street tires would last you much longer than 2 sets of street tires. And a lot more benefitial if you ever got into those rainy track days while the forecast says otherwise.

I think nsxtacy's preaching of not have R comp too early is a valid point... HOWEVER, Here's how i see it... If I had been driving my automatic 95 honda accord and took it to track, I may not be able to reach my skill level (that i have) today. However, after the learning curve of taking the nsx, I can drive my accord way better than before.

Most also argued the R comp tires giving up grip quicker than street tires, again, it depends what kind of street tires. The Ra1 and NT01 performs quite the same as the Z1.. in fact I'm more comfortable driving the limits of the NT01 than the Z1.

 

[docjohn]

as you said the r comps are more consistant throughout the track day vs streets....but the on/off argument is usualy reserved for slicks vs streets,and then more so when cold.I have no problem driving up to 150 miles to and from the track on rA1's....but speeds go down to 45 mph in the rain:frown:

 

[Kouki Monster]

I surprised no one has brought up RS-3's as a tire choice. I have been on most tires and I have yet to find a better street tire for the track. It performs close to entry level r comps ao48's etc. Really are great tires when warm, great grip and response. Brutal in the rain or cold but in the summer or south you never have to worry. Might be a good alternative to r comps.

 

[nsxtasy]

I surprised no one has brought up RS-3's as a tire choice.

I'm not. It doesn't come in any sizes to fit the front of the NSX. Fortunately, some of the other "extreme performance" tires do.