Track report: Sonoma/Infineon/Sear Z06 versus NSX

[chrisn]

Track report: Sonoma/Infineon/Sears Point Z06 versus NSX

TL;DR: Z06 faster in skilled hands; NSX fun, unique and initially faster in intermediate hands.

Just got back from a weekend at Sonoma with the NSX and a C7 Z06. Both cars on Cup2 tires (old ones on Z06 (initially), brand new ones on NSX).

Caveats: It has been about four years since I have driven Sonoma, so I spent much of the weekend learning the track and increasing my pace. I don't have a ton of "testicular fortitude" when driving Sonoma. I've witnessed a crash there at a track day where a guy was life-flighted out, and have heard dozens of stories of guys crumpling up their shiny new toys into the walls. However, my friend knows Sonoma well and has done several races and track days there recently, so his experience yielded better data on a car versus car basis.

I drove the NSX at Thunderhill West two weeks ago and had not driven the Z06 on track for a couple of months. At Sonoma, I jumped in the Z06 for my first track session and, in my mind, was "taking it easy" during my first couple of laps to let things warm up. And then, as soon as I tried to roll into the throttle coming out of the carousel I immediately lost the back end and did a nice smokey multi rotation spin. I'm a cautious driver and *never* spin (maybe 2-3 times in 10 years of doing HPDE stuff).

My friend drove the NSX first and had glowing reviews of it. Then he drove the Z06. And he almost immediately spun (less unusual for him, but still). No kidding, we spent the rest of the day trying to decide whether the Z06 was "broken" or just such a different car to drive that it required a completely different line / approach. We concluded that the Corvette wasn't broken-- it was in our heads.

I tell this story mostly to illustrate (perhaps obviously) that the NSX is a completely new and different driving experience on track. I really like this, because I wanted diversity and got it.

Back to the NSX. The car just begs to be driven fast. The Track mode is so awesomely smart and fun in the way it does gear selection. The sound of the downshifts under heavy braking is intoxicating. Even at my slow/careful turn-in speeds, the NSX really lets you get on the power early and aggressively out of the turns. In Turn 7 (slow speed 180deg turn), it was fun (and safe) to play with using the throttle to rotate the car or get a nice 4-wheel slide before putting down the power on exit. Great fun.

Brakes were awesome, although my friend (who can make any car weep) reported that he thought the brakes might be fading a bit in one of his sessions.

I let the lead instructor (amazing driver) take the NSX for a session with me in the passenger seat. I dumbly did not have a laptimer running, but he made the NSX do things I never thought possible. He really enjoyed the car but acknowledged that it behaved differently in different corners-- the normal rules didn't fully apply. He didn't think it was inherently unbalanced, but would require a learning curve to find the best way through different kinds of turns (moreso than conventional cars). He drives a 911 Turbo normally and said the NSX made his car feel "archaic." He gets to drive many cars and reported that the NSX reminded him of the first time he drove a Lotus Exige around the track in terms of "Wow. That's completely new, different and awesome."

Laptimes. My times are kind of meaningless since I would have gotten faster and faster throughout the weekend in a Miata. But my friend was doing 1:51 in the NSX in his second session (he thought he did a 1:48, but it turned out to be a laptimer glitch). In the Z06 he did 1:50s but felt the tires were toast. We had a new set of Cup2s on spare wheels and swapped them out for his last session in Z06. He did a 1:48. I was FOR SURE much much faster in the NSX versus myself in the Corvette, in part because I scared myself in the Z06 and was being very cautious with power application. Again, not scientific, but confirmatory of my expectations that, in skilled hands, the Z06 will ultimately be faster around the track. But in "regular guy at track day" hands, the NSX is MUCH easier to drive fast.

I still LOVE the Z06 and enjoy the challenge of learning to drive it faster. But, for me, this is a slow and deliberate process. The NSX is just so much SMOOTHER in everything that it does that it inspires confidence and invites experimentation. Fast drivers report the NSX being weird at the limit, but not in a random or inconsistent way, just not "normal" compared to more conventional cars. It also has a learning curve, which is fine.

Finally, as I posted separately, when you run out of gas, the car shuts down and will not creep home in EV. When you fill up and restart car, it throws a million codes. Just let the car sit for 10 mins and all is well.

Edit: Forgot to point out that the last session in Z06 where my friend got his fast lap, he also overheated the Z06 and went into limp mode. No heat issues in NSX.

 

[docjohn]

very nice to read your spirited ramblings...keep it up...along with shiny side!

 

[Valkyrie Pilot]

Wow that is so great to read about your track experiences in these two amazing cars! I am glad to hear that the NSX impressed the lead instructor who owns a 911 Turbo. So it has plenty of passion? Did the lead instructor think it was comparable in track speed to his car?

Too bad about the EV only mode. I guess they have to protect the batteries.

 

[chrisn]

I am glad to hear that the NSX impressed the lead instructor who owns a 911 Turbo. So it has plenty of passion? Did the lead instructor think it was comparable in track speed to his car?

He said he felt that it had more grip than his car and made his car feel old. Just to be fair, his car is a 996 Turbo, but has a bunch of GT3 suspension bits and other go-fast gear. Don't want to give impression that he stepped out of 991.2 TTS. But I think he also had a preconceived notion that the performance hybrid concept (he mentioned 918) "was the future" and was digging the "fun to drive" intangibles, not just lap times. I still wish I had been timing him. That said, he's got tens of thousands of miles of track time on his car, so I am quite sure he is faster in it versus NSX after one 20 min session.

The test I REALLY want to do is the Thunderhill 3 mile course. About 80% of my total track time is on that course and, although I am still not fast on an absolute basis, I feel that that will be the best test of whether I am faster in NSX relative to other cars I have driven there a bunch (including various Caymans, 997TT, GT-R and the Z06). I have lots of videos and telemetry for comparison and will be boring you all with it when I finally get out there.

 

[kendallj]

Thank you again for taking the time to put down your feedback - it makes for really interesting and enjoyable reading

 

[iforyou1109]

Thanks for the track report! Great read! Seems to confirm that the NSX isn't made to break lap records, but rather, to let users have fun at a track day and be able to get decent lap times.

 

[RYU]

I love these threads. That is all

 

[neuronbob]

Thanks for the track report! Awesome. I want to spin a Z06, too, but will have to settle for spinning my slightly less powerful V wagon.

As for the NSX.....as in the RLX Sport Hybrid, I keep saying the eSH-AWD makes a chump drive like a champ. That's a good thing!

 

[RYU]

I remember getting a little sideways at turnout T11 while trying not to smash into the wall. It was a pucker moment indeed. The off-camber T2 is also fun lol

 

[chrisn]

I remember getting a little sideways at turnout T11 while trying not to smash into the wall. It was a pucker moment indeed. The off-camber T2 is also fun lol

Been there. Done that-- except I didn't avoid the wall. :-( If you go 1/2 car length deeper than normal, you hit the marbles and you're done. I was an idiot trying to "out brake" the cars in front of me-- I didn't even think I had overcooked it until it was too late. No structural damage, but paint torn up a bit. Expensive "kiss."

Start around 0:50

 

[sadlerau]

Any thoughts on the NSX being inherently unstable on trail braking, and overly loose on entry and exit, a la MT track reports - from either you or the more experienced drivers??

 

[RYU]

Been there. Done that-- except I didn't avoid the wall. :-( If you go 1/2 car length deeper than normal, you hit the marbles and you're done. I was an idiot trying to "out brake" the cars in front of me-- I didn't even think I had overcooked it until it was too late. No structural damage, but paint torn up a bit. Expensive "kiss."

Start around 0:50

wow! That could have been much worse. I trail braked into that corner unexpectedly in my NA1 and rotated the car enough to make the turn. I'm sure it must have looked great on video but my pucker got a workout that lap!!!

Hope to join you on track soon. I'm trying to schedule one of the Norcal tracks in Nov (likely after SEMA).

 

[neuronbob]

Wowzers. That was a butt puckering moment for sure.

 

[MvM]

Any thoughts on the NSX being inherently unstable on trail braking, and overly loose on entry and exit, a la MT track reports - from either you or the more experienced drivers??

Hi Chris,

First of all, THANK YOU for letting us know your experiences so far.

Likewise, I would very much like to know if you have experienced the same instability at heavy braking that Randy had during his go-fast laptime.
The excuse so far is that the alignment of the car was not correct, hence the instability. But since you car is new, I'd like to hear from you.

 

[chrisn]

I did not ever feel unstable under hard braking in a straight line, including dipping into ABS when I overcooked the straight coming into Turn 7. Zero issues. When trail braking, the car always did what I wanted it to do. In slower/tighter turns I was able to rotate the car with throttle lift followed by fairly fast return to WOT at the apex. Good fun.

Although I personally did not experience this, two fast/experienced drivers reported that, at the limit in fast sweeping turns, the car was pushing and did not want to rotate into the apex. The preliminary diagnosis was that there is already so much weight in the front, that, even with some weight transfer via throttle lift, the front end could not bite and get down to apex. In addition, we saw significant shoulder wear on outside of front tires. Our thinking is that the car might benefit from more negative camber in the front--- but we are going to proceed with caution. It could also be that we were "overdriving" the car and trashing the tires unnecessarily (especially when not fully up to temp/pressure). I ordered a set of Trofeo Rs and am going to try those before messing with alignment. Some sources report that the Trofeos have stiffer/more squared off shoulders that might help this situation (although I note that the low profile Cup2s are pretty stout tires, so I'm not super hopeful).

To restate what I said in posts above, the feedback was *NOT* that the car was inherently unbalanced in terms of being always bias to understeer or oversteer, and all had fun with confident four wheel sliding. The feedback was more that the car behaved differently than expected in certain turns and would, therefore, have a learning curve. So maybe hard to get to 99% of potential quickly, but not something with a straightforward set-up problem that needed "fixing."

One other area of feedback: my friend reported that, compared to the Z06, the NSX was getting comparable terminal speeds on straights (better than expected) but seemed "under braked" compared to the Z06-- meaning it needed an earlier/longer braking zone to make the turn. I suspect that this impression arises from the Z06's (on the Cup2 ZPs) having world-beating cornering grip and simply handling faster entry speeds (and thus needs less braking) than the NSX. Could also be bigger/meatier tires in general on Z06. But I thought I would pass along that "impression" even though the root cause is uncertain.

Finally: unlike most cars, the rear pads on the NSX seem to wear faster than the fronts under hard use. Unclear if this is due to active handling (undetectably) using the rear brakes a bunch even when off the brakes or for other reasons.

 

[blue_myriddn]

Great report! I really appreciate these reviews from every day drivers rather than magazines and pros. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.

 

[RYU]

I did not ever feel unstable under hard braking in a straight line, including dipping into ABS when I overcooked the straight coming into Turn 7. Zero issues. When trail braking, the car always did what I wanted it to do. In slower/tighter turns I was able to rotate the car with throttle lift followed by fairly fast return to WOT at the apex. Good fun.

Although I personally did not experience this, two fast/experienced drivers reported that, at the limit in fast sweeping turns, the car was pushing and did not want to rotate into the apex. The preliminary diagnosis was that there is already so much weight in the front, that, even with some weight transfer view throttle lift, the front end could not bite and get down to apex. In addition, we saw significant shoulder wear on outside of front tires. Our thinking is that the car might benefit from more negative camber in the front--- but we are going to proceed with caution. It could also be that we were "overdriving" the car and trashing the tires unnecessarily (especially when not fully up to temp/pressure). I ordered a set of Trofeo Rs and am going to try those before messing with alignment. Some sources report that the Trofeos have stiffer/more squared off shoulders that might help this situation (although I note that the low profile Cup2s are pretty stout tires, so I'm not super hopeful).

To restate what I said in posts above, the feedback was *NOT* that the car was inherently unbalanced in terms of being always bias to understeer or oversteer, and all had fun with confident four wheel sliding. The feedback was more that the car behaved differently than expected in certain turns and would, therefore, have a learning curve. So maybe hard to get to 99% of potential quickly, but not something with a straightforward set-up problem that needed "fixing."

One other area of feedback: my friend reported that, compared to the Z06, the NSX was getting comparable terminal speeds on straights (better than expected) but seemed "under braked" compared to the Z06-- meaning it needed an earlier/longer braking zone to make the turn. I suspect that this impression arises from the Z06's (on the Cup2 ZPs) having world-beating cornering grip and simply handling faster entry speeds (and thus needs less braking) than the NSX. Could also be bigger/meatier tires in general on Z06. But I thought I would pass along that "impression" even though the root cause is uncertain.

Finally: unlike most cars, the rear pads on the NSX seem to wear faster than the fronts under hard use. Unclear if this is due to active handling (undetectably) using the rear brakes a bunch even when off the brakes or for other reasons.

Please allow me to hypothesize with you. Again, i'll happily admit i'm just taking a wild guess here.

Although I personally did not experience this, two fast/experienced drivers reported that, at the limit in fast sweeping turns, the car was pushing and did not want to rotate into the apex. The preliminary diagnosis was that there is already so much weight in the front, that, even with some weight transfer view throttle lift, the front end could not bite and get down to apex. In addition, we saw significant shoulder wear on outside of front tires. Our thinking is that the car might benefit from more negative camber in the front--- but we are going to proceed with caution. It could also be that we were "overdriving" the car and trashing the tires unnecessarily (especially when not fully up to temp/pressure). I ordered a set of Trofeo Rs and am going to try those before messing with alignment. Some sources report that the Trofeos have stiffer/more squared off shoulders that might help this situation (although I note that the low profile Cup2s are pretty stout tires, so I'm not super hopeful).
--- It may not be too far fetched to assume that in high speed turns the electric motors up front "run out of steam". Meaning they start to lose effectiveness in torque vectoring which you may have noticed was pulling you out of the slower corners. I can see this manifesting itself as understeer as the rear wheels start to overpower the front motors via the ICE. I wonder if a front chin splitter would help some of this, or as you said, additional negative camber up front. If your hypothesis works i'm totally off base.

One other area of feedback: my friend reported that, compared to the Z06, the NSX was getting comparable terminal speeds on straights (better than expected) but seemed "under braked" compared to the Z06-- meaning it needed an earlier/longer braking zone to make the turn. I suspect that this impression arises from the Z06's (on the Cup2 ZPs) having world-beating cornering grip and simply handling faster entry speeds (and thus needs less braking) than the NSX. Could also be bigger/meatier tires in general on Z06. But I thought I would pass along that "impression" even though the root cause is uncertain.
--- Maybe simply a weight issue? The NSX is about 300lbs lighter which is not huge but it's not insignificant either.

 

[chrisn]

Interesting thoughts. I have not experienced any situation where the battery level is less than 50% on track. And it seems pretty glued to 100% most of the time. I don't think it is running out of EV juice in any turns ever. To be clear, this is in 60-70MPH min speed turns-- no where near the 125 MPH limits for front motors.

 

[bngl3rt]

The test I REALLY want to do is the Thunderhill 3 mile course. About 80% of my total track time is on that course and, although I am still not fast on an absolute basis, I feel that that will be the best test of whether I am faster in NSX relative to other cars I have driven there a bunch (including various Caymans, 997TT, GT-R and the Z06). I have lots of videos and telemetry for comparison and will be boring you all with it when I finally get out there.

Do let us know when you're going to go! I will sign up for that day just so I can be nearby and hear the joyful noise

PS HOD has 3mile on 12/10 which I am seriously considering, nudge nudge

 

[MvM]

One other area of feedback: my friend reported that, compared to the Z06, the NSX was getting comparable terminal speeds on straights (better than expected) but seemed "under braked" compared to the Z06-- meaning it needed an earlier/longer braking zone to make the turn. I suspect that this impression arises from the Z06's (on the Cup2 ZPs) having world-beating cornering grip and simply handling faster entry speeds (and thus needs less braking) than the NSX. Could also be bigger/meatier tires in general on Z06. But I thought I would pass along that "impression" even though the root cause is uncertain.

Finally: unlike most cars, the rear pads on the NSX seem to wear faster than the fronts under hard use. Unclear if this is due to active handling (undetectably) using the rear brakes a bunch even when off the brakes or for other reasons.

Thank you very much for the explanation.

On the brake pads, actually, I think that makes PERFECT sense in the NSX.

The front motors also act as generators to recharge the battery. Meaning that when you are braking, some (or even a lot, I have no clue there), of your braking is done by the motors instead of your brakes.

My knowledge on electric motors is limited, but I consider my Newtonian mechanics knowledge quite solid. Basically, when braking, normally, you are transforming kinetic energy into heat. The stronger you brake, the more heat is being generated.
In the NSX however, part of that kinetic energy is transformed into electric energy through the motors acting like generators.

I assume that, theoretically, those 37 HP front motors can also deliver 37 HP (each) in braking power. So, in turn, your actual brakes have less work to do.

(On a side note, AFAIK, since cars with good brakes can brake faster than they can accelerate, it means that brakes can generate more power than the engine of a car. The only downside is that this is turned into heat which is of little use to us).

 

[chrisn]

Do let us know when you're going to go! I will sign up for that day just so I can be nearby and hear the joyful noise

PS HOD has 3mile on 12/10 which I am seriously considering, nudge nudge

I'm going this Thursday with HoD. Hoping to get my Trofeos tomorrow and get them mounted up before I head up. HoD has room in "D" group still. It's a Corvette day, but they opened up to all cars last week.

Also, the only joyful noises from the NSX are piped behind the driver's head. It doesn't sound like much from the outside.

- - - Updated - - -

Doesn't the rear EV motor do regen too? Seems like it would, but I'm not sure. On the street, the EV regen absolutely does a lot of the braking, but I think the friction brakes are doing the VAST majority of braking on track in heavy braking zones. But your point is well taken.

In any event, Honda/Brembo designed (or selected) the brakes for this specific application, so you'd think they would account for the EV nature of the car.

 

[Gadgetman]

The rear motor has to do regen since when stored we need to fire it up to keep the HV batteries charged and it only needs to be running the ICE (1/2 hr or I recall reading or hearing) and doesn't have to be moving.

- - - Updated - - -

Chrisn
Supurb write up which made me feel like I was there. You do have a way with words which paints a clear picture. Well Done! ... And DO keep it up for us less than actual tracker guys.